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PHChristy: Good evening, everyone, I'm Christie Keith, the Director of Community Services for PetHobbyist.com. Welcome to our special guest chat with Emma Parsons.

PHChristy: Emma is the Canine Behavior Training Consultant for the VCA Rotherwood Animal Hospital as well as the Training Director for Karen Pryor's Clicker Training, and the author of Click to Calm: Healing the Aggressive Dog, on how clicker training can dramatically reduce canine aggression in dogs.

PHChristy: This book was inspired by her work with Ben, her Golden Retriever, who became severely aggressive to other dogs after being severely punished by an aggression expert.

PHChristy: Emma turned to clicker training while working with Karen Pryor and successfully eliminated Ben's dog-on-dog aggression. Emma has been sharing Ben's story and the knowledge gained with her clients ever since! She runs her own dog training business called The Creative Canine, which specializes in canine aggression issues.

PHChristy: We are very happy to welcome you here tonight, Emma! And as the owner of a dog-aggressive cattle dog mix, I'm ESPECIALLY glad you're here. Would you like to make some opening remarks?

emma2_nr: Thank you for having me!

PHChristy: ga

emma2_nr: One question that had come up on Dog Read after

hug_a_bull_nr: hello room

emma2_nr: we closed was whether or not one had to use the clcik

emma2_nr: per se. Just so you know: there is nothing magical in the click itself.

hug_a_bull_nr: ?

emma2_nr: It is the importance of using a marker signal that makes the biggest difference.

emma2_nr: They are doing studies now on whether or not the click sound is actually calming to the brain.

emma2_nr: Of course, the beauty of the click is that it can pinpoint behavior in an instant.

emma2_nr: I know with Ben sometimes I wondered if I could click quick enough. ga

PHChristy: !

PHChristy: I just wanted to say that one of the things I loved most about your book is a story you tell about your first meeting with Karen Pryor about Ben.

PHChristy: You said she put her arm on your shoulder and said... "Emma, it's just behavior." I almost cried reading that. It was such a freeing concept.

PHChristy: ga

PHMowgli: hug a bull GA with your question

emma2_nr: Yes, I remember it well.

emma2_nr: She said that as I was in tears, after Ben had just exploded in her class.

emma2_nr: Two dogs had walked into the auditorium behind us and startled us both.

emma2_nr: Ben hadn't had an explosion in awhile.

emma2_nr: The other thing that Karen would not reinforce was when I wanted desperately to tell her why I thought all of this was happening.

PHChristy: YES! the endless maze of "WHY"

emma2_nr: Now I realize why. She did not want to reinforce the behavior from the past but instead focus on moving forward. ga

PHChristy: If you have a question or comment for Emma, just type ? or ! and wait for PHMowgli to call on you. Please have your comments typed and ready to send. :)

PHMowgli: hug a bull your question

hug_a_bull_nr: i have a 4.5 year old desexed male who we desexed at 2.5 years of age because of fighting with my other male and now he just seems confused all together and always is in a cranky mood it's like split personality really, he is always growling at my females and i think he has become fearful all of a sudden, i put him on female hormones to calm him down but nothing is working,whenever i take him somewhere with one of my other female dogs he's a completly different dog all upset and cranky looking but alone he's great and happy, what do you think?

thedoc617: ?

emma2_nr: What I would ask is when does he growl at the females? What is his "normal" life like?

emma2_nr: In owning multiple dogs, we do have to be the leader of the pack.

myjacksnpigg_nr: wow big room

myjacksnpigg_nr: em you have more doggies?

hug_a_bull_nr: he growls at the females when we take them somewhere together like he is jealous or when i'm patting him and they come up for a pat too

myjacksnpigg_nr: mow, hmmmm

hug_a_bull_nr: them*

emma2_nr: One thing that is a biggie is to not let him rehearse the behavior. So if you know he gets growly when "x" happens, change either the sequence of events or the environment so that it cannot continued to be practiced.

hug_a_bull_nr: how would i do that, not pat the others when he's around or not take them anywhere together?

emma2_nr: I now have Nicholas, my Keeshond, and benjamin. Unfortunately I just lost three dogs in the beginning of this year. All lived to be a ripe old ge however it is never easy to lose them. I miss them terribly!

Wind: ?

emma2_nr: You have to teach him that you decide who will be pet when. If he acts inappropriately, he is outta there and put in his Safe Space.

thedoc617: I have moved in to a new house (with 2 roommates and their 2 dogs). I have a spayed Shih-tzu (Daisy) who has a bad case of napolean syndrome, she likes to be top dog. ONe dog that we're living with is a neutered male, (who gets along great with Daisy). The other dog is the problem. she is a 13 year old intact female blue heeler with severe dominance issues. She is VERY food/toy agressive. (even though she doesn't play with toys, if Daisy or Oscar wants it, she has to have it). She steals the other dog's food. If they try to fight back, she snaps at them and tehy back down. Daisy is only 12 pounds, and I really don't want her to get hurt, any ideas?

emma2_nr: No yelling, just take him and escort him where he needs to be.

thedoc617: oopos!

thedoc617: so sorry!

blackymel: ?

hug_a_bull_nr: if he gets cranky in the car with the others i put him on the back (ute) i've been doing this 4 awhile

emma2_nr: I would feed all of the dogs separately. Remember in all of these cases where one dog acts up and the others fall victim. You are the leader of your dogs. Each of the dogs should have a stronger relationship with you than they have amongst themselves.

emma2_nr: For each. it is a privilege to be out with you and the rest of the dogs. If a specific dog acts inappropriately, the party is over!

hug_a_bull_nr: yes he has a stringer relationship with me than the others and i feed them all seperate

PHChristy: hug a bull, one thing that might help is for you to get Emma's book, she has "Recipes for Training" that break this process down into very small steps....

emma2_nr: For this to happen though you do need to work with each dog individually and treat them as such. I know in the book there is a section on multidog households. Patricia McConnell also has a book out on the subject as well that is quite good.

Robin_nr: ?

emma2_nr: ga

hug_a_bull_nr: ok thanks will do

PHMowgli: next in que is doc

myjacksnpigg_nr: woo

PHChristy: I copied thedoc's question so she wouldn't have to type it again - here it is:

PHChristy: I have moved in to a new house (with 2 roommates and their 2 dogs). I have a spayed Shih-tzu (Daisy) who has a bad case of napolean syndrome, she likes to be top dog. ONe dog that we're living with is a neutered male, (who gets along great with Daisy). The other dog is the problem. she is a 13 year old intact female blue heeler with severe dominance issues. She is VERY food/toy agressive. (even though she doesn't play with toys, if Daisy or Oscar wants it, she has to have it). She steals the other dog's food. If they try to fight back, she snaps at them and tehy back down. Daisy is only 12 pounds, and I really don't want her to get hurt, any ideas?

PHChristy: ga

emma2_nr: Again, try to change the environment so that she does not have the opportunity to practice this behavior.

emma2_nr: As she keeps practicing it, she gets reinforced when the other dogs back down.

emma2_nr: Maybe when they play, she is put in her safe space.

kathy_nr: hello

thedoc617: the only thing is, my roommates both free feed their dogs, so when Oscar wants his food, he goes up to it, and then Sage (the heeler) sees him going to it, and she runs and snaps at him, protecting it.

kathy_nr: ok

emma2_nr: Instead of having the dogs freely playing with toys, you might want to do a clicker training session where you are training all three. Maybe to target the toys or retrieve them.

kathy_nr: hi

emma2_nr: You will not want to free feed-make them work for it. At least if they freefeed have them put the dogs in separate rooms.

emma2_nr: I have to say in having multiple dogs I thought that all should be able to eat in peace and quiet.

emma2_nr: In that way you know who has eaten, etc..

emma2_nr: ga

thedoc617: okay, thanks. sounds good

PHMowgli: Wind you are next up

Wind: I have a similar situation as Hug-a-Bull, when I pet my female, my male tries to push in between us. There is no growling, etc. He just does not like me to pet the other dog. I keep trying to make him understand that I love them both and will pet them both. How can that be corrected?

PHMowgli: que is wind, faust, blacky, and robin

emma2_nr: First I would implement the Home Management section with him. Basically nothing in life is free with some extras thrown in.

PHChristy: for those who would like to know more about Emma's book: http://www.doghobbyist.com/books/bookdetail.php?ASIN=1890948209

emma2_nr: When he tries to push in between both of you, he has lost the privilege to be with both of you.

emma2_nr: Again, no scolding or yelling, simply escort him to his time out space.

Wind: ok. ty

emma2_nr: If you allow him to stay, you are reinforcing him for his inappropraite behavior.

emma2_nr: Notice I say inappropriate simply because all of these behaviors are normal for the dogs. ga

PHMowgli: blackymel go ahead with your question, the que is as follows: blacky, robin, and faust

blackymel: would you recommend the use of a muzzle for safety reasons, and do you think a dog wearing a muzzle acts differently from the same dog without? Fantastic book btw

emma2_nr: Thank you!

RuffersRule: ?

emma2_nr: Definitely use a muzzle for safety reasons. If you have ever come to my reactive dog class, people tease me because I am "Miss Safety!"

emma2_nr: Safety first always!

blackymel: of course

Heradog_nr: ?

ode2adream: ?

emma2_nr: Yes some dogs do not like muzzles but they may have to wear them regardless.

emma2_nr: As Karen would say, "We don't care!" How liberating! ga

blackymel: but do they behave differently with one on?

thedoc617: !

emma2_nr: Some do-some can feel restrained or that they don't want something on their face.

emma2_nr: I know when I work with dogs that are aggressive with people one of the first things we do is teach owners how to freeshape their dogs to accept a muzzle. ga

PHMowgli: Robin go ahead with your question que is robin, ruffersrule, heradog, and ode2adream

Robin_nr: I have 2 goldens - a 1 1/2 year old female and a year old male.....they have had 3 fights this summer.....the female being the alpha dog. The fights were over their Holey Balls. Molly (the female) is aggressive to other dogs and it seems to be mostly within my yard. But I'm very leary out of our yard. I just bought your book tonight and I'm hoping that I have the same success that you had with Ben. Will my two Goldens always fight now that they've had a few fights? They were BAD fights! No blood - but very scary!

emma2_nr: Very important, since as a vet tech, some owners of aggressive dogs won't even go near their own dog to put one on! ga

emma2_nr: Not necessarily as long as you keep a good watch on them.

Robin_nr: But they can erupt at a moments notice!

Robin_nr: Usually over the ball or Molly's food

emma2_nr: Be sure to limit the amount of time that your reactive Golden spends out of doors being stimulated by other dogs. For example, do you have a fence? Does she see dogs in her environment that she cannot get to?

emma2_nr: You might want to separate them when they play with these toys.

Robin_nr: Yes we have a fence and there is a dog next door

Robin_nr: She's fine with him

Clicker59: ?

emma2_nr: The toys are put away until it is time to play...

Robin_nr: And today she was fine at the vet standing in between two other dogs

emma2_nr: Good. because we do not want her rehearsing the aggressive behavior in the yard.

Robin_nr: Yes - the toys are put away

Robin_nr: BUT! They have a ton of stuffed ducks in the house that have never caused a problem!

emma2_nr: Oh, and please be clicking and feeding her (if you are able) when she is good with the other dogs-like at the vet.

emma2_nr: ga

Robin_nr: I don't know about the clicker thing - I just ordered your book tonight!

PHMowgli: ruffersrule go ahead with your question and the updated que is as follows: ruffersrule, heradog, thedoc, clicker59

PHMowgli: Ruff you ready?

emma2_nr: Thanks Christy

Robin_nr: Thank you Emma! I can't wait to get that book! GIVE BEN A KISS!

emma2_nr: I will give Ben a big fat kiss! THANKS!!!

RuffersRule: What are some signs to look for if u have adopted a dog and not sure if they have agressive behavoir. Even if they have been temprament tested

emma2_nr: He's right beside me here on the bed as I am typing to all of you!

PHChristy: ::::::::::::::::::waving to Ben:::::::::::::

emma2_nr: If you have just adopted a dog, take it slow. Watch to see how the dog reacts to various stimuli.

emma2_nr: Try to be as predictable as possible by setting up a schedule for the dog.

emma2_nr: If the dog has aggressive tendencies you will know soon enough!

emma2_nr: ga

PHMowgli: Heradog ask away and new que is Heradog, thedoc, then clicker59

Heradog_nr: Hi Emma. As you know, Hera-the-WonderDog! (bulldog) has come a long LONG way using your approaches. She's 9 now and in a few months I am planning to add a puppy to the family. Any special tips? (And "Thank You" for your book, your seminars, and all your teachings.)

PenelopesMommy: Hi I'm back

emma2_nr: Thanks! Again, take it slow.

RuffersRule: Thanks You!

blackymel: ?

emma2_nr: When you expose her to the new puppy, do so in tiny increments, c/t her for looking at and hearing the new pup.

vetcare_nr: ?

emma2_nr: Do constuctive things with them like take them for a walk, start with parallel walking.

emma2_nr: Have a friend walk with you. Do not walk them together until you know that Hera as accepted the newcomer.

Heradog_nr: Think the pup can learn the "good things" from Hera and I can help prevent the reactive tendencies from spreading?

emma2_nr: I am also thinking about adding another Golden pup to my family in another year. So I will be doing much of the same...

emma2_nr: ga

Heradog_nr: Neat, Ben will have a younger sibling!

PHMowgli: doc go ahead

thedoc617: I'm not sure if you can answer this, but its worth a shot. I had a comment about when we were talking about muzzles before. I work in the grooming profession, and we have had dogs who have been kicked out of grooming shops for agression in the past. These are dogs that are sneaky and will put their front paws on the muzzle and claw their eyes out if they can. Any ideas on how I can deal with these doggies while grooming? and what should I say to their owners about agression? (how do I put it nicely?)

emma2_nr: Yes, I hope he will like it!

PHMowgli: que is as follows thedoc, clicker59, PHFaust, blackymel, and vet care and I am sorry to say I cannot add more to the que as we will not have time.

Wind: ?

emma2_nr: To put it nicely to owners just explain the behavior issue with their dog and ask them to work on specific exercises at home.

emma2_nr: For example, if muzzling is a problem, maybe some owners wouldn't mind practicing with a gentle Leader or Halti? Might feel somewhat the same as a muzzle.

emma2_nr: For these dogs that do not like the muzzle, I assume the muzzle is fitted properly.

thedoc617: yes, we make sure it's not too tight, yet not too loose

thedoc617: make sure they can breathe too

PHChristy: Emma's book has excellent guidlines on training dogs to accept the muzzle

PHChristy: guidelines

emma2_nr: I know dogs at the vet clinic might not like them but we usually would have one other person help hold the dog to distract them. Can you do this here? ga

PHMowgli: Clicker59 go ahead

Clicker59: What Can I do to Quite My Clicker so it won't get Noisy so I can use it Without getting On my family's nerves?

thedoc617: thanks emma

Clicker59: They can't stand the constant clicking sound is all

PHMowgli: que is clicker59, faust, blackymel and vetcare

emma2_nr: Muffle the clicker by wrapping towels around it or you can get one of the newer clickers that are much more quieter.

emma2_nr: You can also click with your mouth or use another type of sound as well.

emma2_nr: ga

PHMowgli: faust go ahead

PHFaust: Is there a way to integrate some of this towards dog on dog agression in shelter environment

PHFaust: I notice it tends to fester there with limited contact with other dogs

PHMowgli: que is PHFaust, blackymel, and vetcare

emma2_nr: Definitely. First if you can separate the dog that is reactive to other dogs if you can. I know when I was at Yankee Golden if we had a dog that was reactive we would put them in the end kennel run.

PHFaust: that I do...

emma2_nr: Then you can have sessions where you can click and feed the reactive dog for seeing and hearing the other dogs.

PHFaust: or if they seem to react to certain, I separate

emma2_nr: Of course you will have to adapt this to your kennel environment. I know they are all different.

myjacksnpigg_nr: hi peoples

emma2_nr: For example, at YGRR we could take them for a walk in the woods and when they saw the other dog walking with the volunteer we would click and treat them. They also wore gentle Leaders as well.

emma2_nr: ga

PHMowgli: blackymel go ahead with your question

blackymel: your book has had a profound influence on many people including myself of course, how are you handling the fame and when are you coming over to Europe?

emma2_nr: I will come to Europe when someone invites me! Hint! Hint!

blackymel: done

PHFaust: We can work that outside in the yard... our shelter has a good chunk of property

emma2_nr: Honestly I am just happy to be able to share my story about Ben. It was such a devestating time in my life. And so happy to be able to share it with students and their reactive digs.

emma2_nr: I am hooked! because it just kept working and working!

blackymel: so glad that you did

blackymel: keep it up, we all benefit

RuffersRule: ppl get booted alot jack

emma2_nr: It's nice to know that people could learn from my difficulties. For me it is all about educating the owner and saving dogs! ga

blackymel: as it should be :-)

tonyandwillo: ?

Wind: wind?

emma2_nr: I used to call Karen at about 10 at night, after a particularly successful session, and I would say in surprise, "Oh my gosh, it worked again!"

emma2_nr: I couldn't believe that this methodology would have such an impact! ga

blackymel: well it most certainly has, thank you

PHMowgli: vetacer go ahead

Clicker59: Another ?

vetcare_nr: I have a 1 1/2 year old cattle dog (neutered) who is very friendly with people but has fear aggression problems with other dogs. (barking and lunging) I have been taking him to an off leash dog park with a muzzle and he does pretty well with other dogs--especially smaller dogs or females. Big black males really scare him.l He usually reacts by barking and lunging at them but stops as soon as they are out of his space. The second time he meets them he is much better. Making progress. Still have problems on leash. Any ideas for better on leash socialization? (I'm looking forward to your seminar at the Minneapolis Clicker Expo)

PHMowgli: if we have time I will call on the other ?'s

emma2_nr: On leash, c/t him for seeing and hearing other dogs. The reason why i keep saying this is that if you c/t him at those moments, the aversive stimuli (which in this case is the other dog) will become the cue in and of itself for him to look at you.

emma2_nr: So that means that instead of trying to persuade him to look at you, he looks at the other dog and automatically says "Hey Mom or dad, I looked. Now give me a cookie!

emma2_nr: It is his choice!

vetcare_nr: He is very easy to distract from me. Will focus on the other dog and it is very hard to win attention back.

emma2_nr: Use a very high rate of reinforcement and only expose for a very short amount of time.

emma2_nr: Have him either in Gentle Leader or harness. I usually use whatever tool the dog likes the best.

emma2_nr: No aversive collars! Please introduce yourself to me at the ClickerExpo!

emma2_nr: ga

vetcare_nr: I'll keep working at it thank you

PHChristy: Folks, I think that is all we have time for.... I hope Emma will come back to us again!

emma2_nr: And do remember that you can c/t the lowering of the aggressive cues as well. It does not have to be absent for you to be able to reinforce...

emma2_nr: ga

PHChristy: Thank you, everyone, for coming tonight! And thank you very much to Emma for being out guest.

Clicker59: OK Christie

Clicker59: And christie thanks

PHChristy: The transcript of this chat will be posted at http://www.doghobbyist.com/articles/ClickToCalm.html sometime tomorrow, and you can also buy Emma's book "Click to Calm" in the DogHobbyist bookstore at http://www.doghobbyist.com/books/

emma2_nr: My pleasure! ben thanks you too!

PHChristy: We hope you'll join us next week for our regular Tips & Training Chat! Goodnight and again, thanks for coming!

PHChristy: Emma, that was just wonderful!

PHMowgli: Thank you Emma very much food for for thought tonight

PHChristy: I really enjoyed it

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