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Transcript: Dog Breeding Chat Tuesday, April 13, 2004: Hormones and Canine Reproduction PHChristy: Welcome to Dog Breeding Chat! Our topic tonight is Hormones and Canine Reproduction. PHChristy: I am actually ready to discuss hormones, but let's wait a few minutes.... Morgan will be either late nor not here, she had a puppy emergency harvbeck: hi mow PHMowgli: oh christy is she having puppies or is one of hers having a problem? PHChristy: Mowgli, one of the puppies is having a problem PHChristy: he had an injury to his penis, she had to take him to the vet when she got home PHChristy: she phoned me PHChristy: poor little pupper! harvbeck: owww PHMowgli: oh poor baby I is Ok PHChristy: Hello Golden! WB! PHMowgli: hey golden GoldenDreams: Ok that's Better PHChristy: if anyone else comes in we'll talk about hormones *G* GoldenDreams: Harv...where are you in Maine? PHMowgli: hey I am ready to talk about hormones I have 4 boys who have them raging right now LOL PHChristy: LOL Mow harvbeck: soth portland GoldenDreams: awwww not to far harvbeck: nope harvbeck: i work in york from time to time PHMowgli: hey bert bert_nr: Hi all GoldenDreams: Howdy Bert!! PHChristy: Hi there bert! Welcome to Dog Breeding Chat! Our topic tonight is Hormones and Canine Reproduction. bert_nr: Been THERE PHChristy: we have so far not actually discussed our topic, but rather my upcoming trip to New England, LOL bert_nr: What's in NE harvbeck: lobster PHChristy: my National Specialty PHChristy: and lobster, LOL bert_nr: Always a good reason for a trip bert_nr: Mine's in Sept in St Louis GoldenDreams: For Lobster....Blachhhhh!! PHChristy: yes, it's usually the only trip I take! PHChristy: we had our specialty in St Louis a few years ago PHChristy: it was a nice site but my GOD it was cold! Icy freezing cold! PHChristy: it was April, I think bert_nr: I've heard alot of pro and cons on that site bert_nr: Where are you in NE? PHChristy: I had to go buy thermal underwear and hats and gloves at a nearby store, LOL PHMowgli: our specialty is next week in Utah PHChristy: the specialty is at the Basin Harbor Club in Vergennes, VT PHChristy: this is the third time we've used this site, it's absolutely gorgeous, wonderful PHMowgli: see now that I would be ready for Christy PHChristy: 500 acres PHChristy: great food bert_nr: That happened in 83 in MD for us at least a mall was nearby PHChristy: Hello Minuet! Welcome to Dog Breeding Chat! Our topic tonight is Hormones and Canine Reproduction. GoldenDreams: Howdy Minuet!! bert_nr: WOW !! I wonder why the Sammie people have never found that place PHMowgli: hey minuet Minuet: Hi PHChristy: So, bert, you said you had "been there done that" with hormone problems? PHChristy: bert, I don't know, but dont' tell them about it, LOL PHChristy: I'll have to edit the log PHChristy: LOL bert_nr: Actually Kyrie missed three breeding attempts and we found she had a cyst on one ovary PHChristy: did taking care of that solve the problem? bert_nr: We were at the Anhuser Busch site in NH PHMowgli: whew that was loud LOL Minuet: Well....don't know nuthing about birthin no babies.... PHChristy: what was loud? Minuet: See ya all later! PHChristy: hello t&T... Welcome to Dog Breeding Chat! Our topic tonight is Hormones and Canine Reproduction. PHMowgli: sorry I was playing with room options PHChristy: Night Min! bert_nr: Yes, she conceived and carried to term which is where Sir came from. t&t_nr: g2g u guys r sick PHChristy: bert, that's great that you managed to work it out! what did you do? PHChristy: Hello Pom! Welcome to Dog Breeding Chat! Our topic tonight is Hormones and Canine Reproduction. GoldenDreams: Hi Pom!! travlinpom_nr: Hey all PHMowgli: hi pom PHChristy: sorry for the delay, Trav, I was bouncing a disruptive chatter travlinpom_nr: Christy, yeah I saw the tail end of that bert_nr: I couldn't figure out what was going on. PHChristy: bert was just telling us that she had a bitch with an ovarian cyst who missed three cycles in a row, but was successfully bred after treatment. I just asked what treatment she used. PHMowgli: on the hormone thing did you use cabergoline bert? travlinpom_nr: How did they find the cyst? I mean, what symptoms did the bitch show other than not getting pregnant? any? bert_nr: I had a surgical implant done with the sperm and he found and eliminated the cyst. Apparently they put out excess amounts of the wrong hormone during pregnancies and cause reabsorbion PHMowgli: hey chival PHChristy: Hello chivalryess! Welcome to Dog Breeding Chat! Our topic tonight is Hormones and Canine Reproduction. PHChristy: bert, yes, that's exactly what happens travlinpom_nr: bert, so no other symptoms? enlarged vulva? anything? bert_nr: I don't know what cabergoline is but basically everthing seemed normal except no pups PHChristy: Mowgli, how would cabergoline work if it was a cyst? PHMowgli: cabergoline is a hormone they inject to cause a bitch to go into season and ovulate chivalryess: Hi Everyone PHMowgli: sounds to me as if maybe bert had a prgesterone problem bert_nr: I don't breed very often so missing getting a bitch from Kyr is a big disappointment. Now I'm looking for a bitch to breed her brother to PHChristy: yes, but it works by increasing lutenizing hormone PHChristy: cabergoline PHChristy: so I would not expect it to be helpful if there was something like a cyst PHMowgli: me either christy PHChristy: chivalryess, have you had any hormonal problems in your dogs? bert_nr: I did follow up with progesterone testing after the ultrasound to make sure her levels weren't dropping back down. travlinpom_nr: This is the time of year when i do most of my breeding . . . really looking forward to my upcoming litters!!! PHMowgli: since I am only having 3 more litters in my lifetime I am not doing any breeding right now bert_nr: I love winter litters as they housebreak so easily PHChristy: Mowgli, LOL, why three more in your lifetime only? PHChristy: bert, why is that? PHMowgli: Christy I am switching to studs only bert_nr: No flys or bugs PHChristy: Mow? bert_nr: They stay clean in the snow once they're big enough to toddle they go outside to go travlinpom_nr: huh? PHChristy: we don't really have winter here per se PHMowgli: Oh you want to know why Christy? PHChristy: well, I guess I want to know what you're thinking.... PHMowgli: all my girls except 2 are retired they are all old now PHChristy: what you're doing with your breeding program, by only having three more litters in your life? I don't know your age, but that seems drastic! PHMowgli: I really enjoy showing more so than breeding PHChristy: unless you're like 60 PHMowgli: thus I am going to finish out the program I started and complete my line but only have males for show from here on out bert_nr: Well you can certainly travel more that way travlinpom_nr: Mow, are you back in the ring now? did you go to Crown Point? PHMowgli: allow all my girls to live out their lives in comfort and just be spoiled pets PHMowgli: trav I started back 3 weeks ago in Canada only so far PHMowgli: I will be hitting state side shows in 2 weeks here in Michigan GoldenDreams: <-------being naive what is Crown Point?? PHChristy: and me, I'm going to be working on getting a bitch and starting my breeding program over, sigh travlinpom_nr: Golden, Crown Point, Indiana . . . there was a show there this past weekend bert_nr: I have a pup in Ypsalinti? sp thinking of traveling up there to a show to see how he turned out GoldenDreams: awwwww thanks Trav PHChristy: I was thinking.... PHMowgli: Christy I could do that and get new bitches or keep puppy bitches from the remaining litters I can produce but I am ready to have more fun at shows than produce puppies lots of puppies you guys don't mine LOL PHMowgli: bert we have a show in ypsi in june PHChristy: if the hormone being produced by the cyst was prolactin, then it's possible that cabergoline would help. Although obviously getting rid of the cyst is what you want to do. PHMowgli: ypsilanti is how it is spelled also PHChristy: I don't know if cysts can produce prolactin, though. I always think of them as producing estrogen and progesterone. PHMowgli: I expect them to produce progesterone mainly also PHChristy: but I don't actually know what hormones they can produce. bert_nr: I got the a and i backwards...... is that Monroe? PHMowgli: sorry I got off topic Christy ;) PHChristy: that's ok, Mowgli! PHMowgli: north west of monroe PHChristy: with a small chat like this it is hard to stay on topic, I know PHChristy: but I have all this great stuff on hormones to use, LOL bert_nr: Tell us tell us !!!!!! PHMowgli: were you like me reading the Dr. Hutch transcripts last night LOL PHChristy: what do you want to know, LOL? bert_nr: Dr Hutch got my Kyrie preggers. PHChristy: I don't completely agree with Dr. Hutch on every little thing, but I do basically think he walks on water *G* GoldenDreams: Well guys and gals....have fun talking hormones....I'm off to watch a movie and hit the hay! PHMowgli: I like Dr. Hutch although I have to say I am still an advocate that if they are supposed to have pups they will and I will not use medical technology to intervene in that PHChristy: night Golden! bert_nr: He is the greatest guy for answering questions and returning phone calls PHChristy: ttyl! PHMowgli: nite Golden PHChristy: he's a wonderful guy, and FUNNY! PHMowgli: yes I love his seminars too PHChristy: he just makes me laugh, whenever I see him speak or talk to hyim on the phone or even in his online chats he's done with us PHMowgli: he can keep you interested for hours even if you disagree with him bert_nr: He's done 3 talks at our kennel club meetings too PHChristy: LOL Mow PHMowgli: Ok here is my take on hormone uses PHChristy: he spoke at our National several years ago and his information on ovulation timing totally changed my whole approach to breeding bert_nr: I don't agree with breeding every season then spaying. I want to see what's produced from one litter before I decide where I have to go to improve PHMowgli: mother nature more or less still does use the survival of the fittest to a point and if we manipulate the hormones to impregnante we may be produceing inferior animals thus I won't do it PHMowgli: however I think this is someting each person needs to decide for themselves so I am not trying to cram my theories down any ones throat PHChristy: bert, but to be fair to Dr. Hutch, I don't really think that is his point. I think he's saying that from the point of view of UTERINE HEALTH, it's best to breed young and back to back bert_nr: I don't considering eliminating a cyst as manipulating. Had I bred her earlier in her life it probably wouldn't have been an issue PHChristy: Mowgli, I agree, but you're talking about using hormones as drugs or treatments, there are things we as breeders should know about hormones that will help us understand our bitch's natural cycles and whelping better PHMowgli: yes I do agree with that Christy travlinpom_nr: He also makes the point that going through a season is very hard on your bitch and if you dont want to breed her you should put her on cheque drops PHChristy: there are often reasons in our breeidng programs and our lives that it's not wise to breed like that PHChristy: right Trav PHChristy: he is making a point about how progesterone trashes a bitch's uterus PHChristy: which I think is VERY valuable information for us to have PHMowgli: Oh No I am not against the cheque drops or the fertilizing of bitches I am against hte use of hormones to manipulate a bitch to have a puppies when they never have a season and things like that PHChristy: I also agree with bert about the cyst PHChristy: because we DO have reasons for delaying breeding our bitches, that are good reasons, the consequence is that sometimes their uteruses aren't in the best of health, and I think that being able to rectify that and still breed our worthy bitches is very important PHMowgli: there are many uses for hormones but also as with anything they can be used incorrectly too PHChristy: so I take a middle of the road approach to intervention, hormonal or otherwise PHChristy: but I wouldn't want a bitch in my breeding program who was basically hormonally DEFECTIVE paulinenz: hello PHChristy: Hi, paulinenz! bert_nr: OH gosh no PHChristy: Welcome to Dog Breeding Chat! Our topic tonight is hormones and canine reproduction! PHMowgli: Christy maybe I should explain what I meant, Ok here is an example you have a 3 yr old bitch never had a season so you manipulate her into heat and fertilize her using invitro then you use progesterone to maintain pregnancy that is not correct in my opinion PHChristy: I agree completely bert_nr: Okay this isn't hormones but has a breeding type of quesiton. What do you do with a dog or bitch with a hernia? PHMowgli: minor uses of hormones to couteract aging or to stop a season I am Ok with PHMowgli: it would depend on what type of hernia bert bert_nr: Hutch says to leave it alone it will never effect the dogs life PHChristy: a bitch who has abnormal seasons from the get go, IMO, doesn't belong in my breeding program and I don't think we should be manipulating these bitches to breed them, unless you're dealing with a very unusual circumstance such as breeds in danger of extinction, a line that has some value to the breed that has to be continued, etc bert_nr: Umbilical PHChristy: I honestly don't know, I've never had to deal with that! PHChristy: I had a cat who had one, he lived a normal life PHMowgli: yes Christy that is my thought if they are not correct to begin with they are not best bet to use in breeding program PHMowgli: bert I had a small one once we just left alone bert_nr: I had heard in the past that a pregnacy could cause a stragulation of the instestines PHMowgli: it was on a pet pup PHMowgli: hey rottie travlinpom_nr: bert, i think that would be more common with an inguinal hernia PHChristy: hello rottieluv! Welcome to Dog Breeding Chat! Our topic tonight is hormones and canine reproduction! rottieluv: Hi Mowgli!! bert_nr: this is the pup in MI the owner says it's huge but I or the vets here didn't find it before he left at 4 months rottieluv: Hi Christy! PHMowgli: bert did it grow? PHMowgli: or I should enlarge travlinpom_nr: bert, i had a girl with a small hernia, no problem for several years, then it started to get larger, i had it tacked PHChristy: we've so far covered the effects of progesterone on the uterus, some uses of cabergoline, cysts.... and the ethics of using hormones to manipulate bitches with hormone problems into cycling. Which so far we're all against. *G* PHMowgli: maybe they should take him/her to vet bert_nr: No idea PHChristy: OK, ovaban.... rottieluv: Have a question, have any of you experienced problems with getting pregnancy weight off of a bitch, perhaps related to a hormone issue?? Her thyroid was OFA cert'd prior to the breeding. PHChristy: I think we all know that Ovaban is horribly risky for our bitches, and not to use it? PHMowgli: rottie no but I often hae bitches who get fat after having pups and they drop weight about 6 mths later bert_nr: I don't like the idea of Chec drops either PHChristy: Even just one use of it can induce CEH (cystic endometrial hyperplasia) which is a pre-pyometra condition. bert_nr: Yeeek don't want that PHChristy: Checque drops have their problems as well as their benefits.... but they are not even remotely as dangerous as Ovaban PHMowgli: Christy what I want to know is why it is still being used and avial with all the dangers PHChristy: Well.... in MALES It can be useful PHChristy: for prostate problems rottieluv: She has now had her first season after the pregnancy and was a month late. Not sure if I should recheck her thyroid?? PHChristy: they use a much lower dose which is not thought to cause much in the way of side effects, and sometimes it even helps resolve some behavior issues, primarily male aggression PHMorgan: Haroo folks PHChristy: MORGAN! welcome! PHMowgli: rottie why do you say she was late? PHMowgli: hey Morgan bert_nr: What's her coat look like PHChristy: rottieluv, well, a couple of thoughts.... have you had her worked up for Cushings? PHChristy: that is the big red flag that was raised for me PHChristy: and also, it's possible her hormone dose is not right rottieluv: She always comes in season in January and in July every year. She was "due" Jan 8th and came in Feb 10. PHMowgli: hey dragon dragon10: hi PHChristy: Hello dragon! Welcome to Dog Breeding Chat! Our topic tonight is hormones and canine reproduction! PHChristy: rottieluv, that's not actually unusual PHChristy: how old is she again? PHMowgli: rottie my bitches who are small come in every 8 mths I would not panic on that rottieluv: Her coat looks good and the vet says she doesn't look Hypothyroid. PHChristy: by her hormone dose, I mean thyroid hormone PHChristy: rottieluv! They cannot tell by looking at her, they need to do hormone assay testing! PHChristy: hormone replacement therapy, such as thyroid, is an art and a science PHChristy: and getting the dose right takes a lot of care and time bert_nr: I wouldn't worry over a later season PHChristy: and it sometimes needs tweaking as the dog goes into different life stages PHChristy: I'd worry if she still has signs of clinical thyroid deficiency - rarely does thyroid interefer with fertility PHMowgli: I find it odd that a rottie would come in every 6 mths to begin with PHMorgan: My beagle has had thyroid disease for years PHMorgan: She has her levels checked yearly rottieluv: Coming in at 7 months was a change for her. She has been biked 2-3 miles a day since Feb, then we added swimming and hiking too. She is still 10 lbs overweight. She will be 5 yrs old in June. PHChristy: that does seem often, normally the larger dogs dont' come in that frequently PHMowgli: rottie how is she? PHChristy: Morgan, and in the beginning I'd want to see it done more often, to be sure the dose is right PHChristy: harv, welcome back!!!! PHMowgli: WB harv PHMorgan: NOw... for about 8 years, it NEVER changed. But about 3 years ago, we had to lower her dosgae - it finallyo changed PHChristy: we wondered where you'd gone! PHMowgli: sorry rottie how old is she? PHMorgan: Yes, they checked it about every 3 months when she first got on it - my point is that it can be OK for a while and then change PHChristy: Morgan, yes, I agree completely PHMowgli: and here I have the breed that supposedly is most suscpetible to hypothyroidism and I have never had a dog with it LOL rottieluv: She will be 5 in June. A comprehensive thyroid panel was sent to Michigan State the end of last June before I bred her and was completely normal. PHMowgli: shows you what the rules mean to a dog who does not read these reports LOL PHChristy: OK, I wanted to mention two hormone tests that are very useful to us as breeders.... rottieluv: The other thing that bugs me is she is always hungry. PHMowgli: rottie so you have free t-3's and free t-4's also? PHChristy: if you have a bitch whose temperature doesn't drop before whelping, you can do progesterone level tests andwhen it drops below 2 ng/ml, it indicates that the pups are ready to whelp rottieluv: This started right before she had the pups. And before I cut her food back. PHMorgan: You might have to do those every other day for a week or so, right Christie? I think that is what I was told PHMowgli: Christy that is nice to know rottieluv: The thyroid panel cost me $127.00 and was the largest one(most tests) I could have done. and yes the "T's" were normal. PHChristy: the other one is... if you've ever had a rescue or pet who was spayed, but there is some thought they might hve left some remnants inside her, because she is showing some signs of estrus... you can use a lutenizing hormone assay test to know, without having to do exploratory surgery. In a spayed bitch LH will be elevated due to lack of ovarian feedback. In an intact bitch it will only be elevated for the 12-24 hours just prior to ovulation. PHChristy: Morgan, yes, that's right PHMowgli: rottieluv just a note here for your information a thyroid panel does not mean she does not have hypothyroidism it means it was not present at that test rottieluv: Has anyone heard of a thyroid problem developing related to pregnancy??? PHChristy: rottieluv, perhaps you cut her food back too much? I recommend not cutting back on it more than 5 percent at a time PHMowgli: also they often recommend 2 tests 1 day apart one before feeding and one after one before excercise and 1 after PHChristy: it seems we can shock their systems into a sort of "starvation mode," and weight gain sometimes results even though we have reduced the food intake PHChristy: rottieluv, any change in one hormone can change any of the others, so yes, it would make sense that pregnancy or lactation could cause a bitch's thyroid hormone levels to change PHMowgli: Ok quick question on the feeding portion LOL PHMowgli: why do you cut back on food at all? rottieluv: I wondered about the starvation mode thing, I know that can happen with humans. (I know much more about people, than dogs) PHChristy: Mowgli, if the bitch is overweight PHChristy: rottieluv, yes, it definitely happens with dogs PHChristy: and the cure for obesity in dogs and humans is roughly the same: less carbs to reduce insulin production, more exercise and muscle to improve metabolism and insulin sensitivity, dont' starve them or their metabolisms will crash even lower rottieluv: I cut the food back because she was 15 pounds overweight after the pups. She got up to 130 pounds with 9 pups and she usually weights 95 to 98 pounds PHMowgli: oh see I just think if they are a bit overweight after having pups it is because they atea bit much to feed pups and it will come off naturally I don't cut back on food I increase on excercise I must be odd LOL PHChristy: and remember there is no such thing as low carb kibble *G* PHChristy: Mowgli, you're not odd PHChristy: she already increased the exercise PHChristy: it sounds like the bitch put on more than a "few pounds" PHMowgli: Oh yeah I bet rottie feeds kibble too that makes a difference PHMorgan: Rottie - how do you feed your dogs? In crates? together? A bitch's appetite can increase ENORMOUSLY after a litter, even after she stops nursing PHChristy: some bitches come out of a litter a bit overweight, others a bit thin travlinpom_nr: I mix their food with some green beans, they seem satisfied with that PHMowgli: I forget about that LOL PHMorgan: Sometimes they will get into ALL kinds of food if not supervised PHMorgan: My bitches are always too thin after a litter, btu not by choice. I keep them very lean PHChristy: fiber might make their tummies feel full, but it doesn't lead to increased satiety... fat does that. rottieluv: I feed a raw type diet, and have tried the green beans, she just leaves them in her bowl. PHChristy: and since fat does not produce an insulin response, it's often very beneficial in a weight loss diet PHChristy: I'm not a fan of the high fiber "filler" approach to weight loss for dogs travlinpom_nr: rottie, i have some that do that, i give them the green beans like they are cookies . . . then they think they are great PHChristy: there is no evidence when they have studied it that high fiber diets help in canine weight loss rottieluv: I use a lot of turkey as it is leaner, maybe I should increase the fat content. I do give her salmon oil caps, which has helped her coat and helped her stay "regular" with her hormones in the past. PHChristy: rottieluv, I would check her thyroid levels PHChristy: you may need to keep adjusting the dosage PHChristy: they really can't tell by just looking at her rottieluv: My gut feeling was to do some bloodwork to see if we are dealing with any abnormal changes since the pregnancy. I am hoping this isn't the case as I was hoping to rebreed her one more time (this was her first litter) I can tell you that both her parents thyroids are normal. PHMowgli: Ok one more quick question does this dog have hypothyroidism? is it on soloxine or equivalent? rottieluv: She has not been diagnosed with any diseases and is not on any meds except for vitamin supplements. PHMowgli: ok cause you kept saying she was taking stuff to keep hormones normal that is why I was asking PHChristy: rottie... I thought you said she WAS on thyroid? rottieluv: She seems to have longer cycles sometimes, and since the salmon oil, she has not has this occur. PHMowgli: ok longer cycles a a symptom of a problem PHMorgan: Wlel, it can be PHMorgan: It's not always PHMorgan: Some bitches cycle differently rottieluv: No, I said she was checked and clear before her breeding last summer and I wondered if she became hypothyroid because of the pregnancy. PHMowgli: Morgan I mean if you have the other problems too it is an additional sign PHChristy: rottie, you're right, I just scrolled back, I"m sorry PHChristy: absolutely any hormonal change can affect other hormone levels, I would recheck the thyroid PHChristy: the full panel again PHChristy: but also do a workup for other hormonal problems such as Cushings rottieluv: No problem, its hard to keep up with this screen. I just really enjoy reading your transcripts and wanted some feedback as I am concerned and sometimes the vets are more worried about earning money than keeping some in my pocketbook. PHChristy: rottie, I tend to be an information junkie PHMorgan: Pregnancy can alter a lot in a dog's metabolism and hormone balance PHChristy: and really want to KNOW, so I do a lot of tests PHMorgan: I've never HEARD of thyroid changing after pregnancy, but I never ASKED either rottieluv: I'm a nurse, but try to remember that people and dogs are always similiar ;0)) PHChristy: All our hormones are in a feedback system, so you can never isolate them from each other PHChristy: LOL rottie, well then I'm not telling you what you don't know *G* rottieluv: I meant that I try to remember that they aren't always similiar (just had a puppy jump on my keyboard sorry) PHChristy: the endocrine system are mostly very similar in how they work, even though their normal levels of the various hormones are different PHChristy: and estrogen and progesterone don't work exactly the same in human and canine pregenancy PHChristy: pregnancy PHChristy: I can spell, honestly *G* PHChristy: One other thing I wanted to mention is false pregnancy. PHChristy: False pregnancy is NORMAL in t |
