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Transcript: Dog Breeding Chat Tuesday, April 5, 2005: Feeding for Breeding PHChristy:Welcome to Dog Breeding Chat! Our topic tonight is Feeding for Breeding! jada1938:Hi there Christy! PHChristy:Go for it, Mow! PHChristy:hi there jada!! PHChristy:hi wyndrushlabs! Welcome to Dog Breeding Chat! Our topic tonight is Feeding for Breeding! PHMowgli:have you ever used or know anyone who ever used the relaxin pg test and if so did it give acurate results? jada1938:I did...see above PHMowgli:hey borz PHChristy:Hi there borzoid! Welcome to Dog Breeding Chat! Our topic tonight is Feeding for Breeding! borzoid:HI wyndrushlabs_nr:Good evening everone borzoid:A topic near & dear to my heart right now jada1938:With a change in breeds I will be interested in what others do and glad to share what has worked for me for over 40 years of litters. borzoid:Hi wyndrush wyndrushlabs_nr:I am just trying to figure this out borzoid:Hi jada jada1938:Hey there! PHMowgli:jada what breed do you have? wyndrushlabs_nr:Hi, my name is Dana pbecca_nr:has anyone ever heard of whelping a pup and the placenta stays everytime. The pup has to be cut away from mon and she retains some which is always addressed with antibiotics. jada1938:First Irish PHChristy:Mowgli, I don't know anything myself, and I just quickly looked to see if Dr. Hutch mentioned it, but I didn't see anything PHChristy:wyndrush, nice to meet you. :) jada1938:setter, then Rotties, now Havanese PHChristy:I breed Scottish Deerhounds wyndrushlabs_nr:Labradors here PHMowgli:shelties here PHChristy:pbecca, I've never heard of it, but it sounds pretty bad.... I would personally not want to keep that bitch in my breeding program. borzoid:Borzoi here PHChristy:I also have a Borzoi although I don't breed them berta:Samoyeds PHChristy:she is a pet :) jada1938:I agree about breeding such a problem bitch. Mine never did that kind of thing, thank heavens. pbecca_nr:Then the pups get diarreah and the race is on to stop the dirreah as the pups growth goes nowhere borzoid:[img id=em-6] PHMowgli:I have a collie for a pet LOL ;) berta:I have a Morgan for a pet borzoid:are you sure one had something to do with the other pb PHMowgli:hey maile jada1938:Acidopholus and lactobacillus any time I or my dogs are on antibiotics stops runs, yeast. PHChristy:Hi mailepom! Welcome to Dog Breeding Chat! Our topic tonight is Feeding for Breeding! PHChristy:pbecca, what is the breed? mailepom_nr:hi[img id=em-6] PHChristy:Mow, I found info on the relaxin test, it's not reliable any earlier than ultrasound, so it hasn't caught on.... borzoid:pb, my girl retained one placenta and yes I did cut the puppy away. pbecca_nr:The bitch is my best bitch and has 12 pups at a time. After all of the drama the pups are my best pups except for that prob. PHMowgli:my girls are fed nutro natural choice puppy kibble with a homemade dinner during pregnancy and they get anything they will eat when nursing LOL PHChristy:also, the relaxin test will be positive even if the bitch resorbed the litter pbecca_nr:GSD. PHMowgli:ah ok christy thanks that is what I was wondering PHChristy:pbecca, that's a pretty hideous problem, though. Have any of her daughters breen bred? PHMowgli:do you have a link to that info PHChristy:pbecca, what is the breed? PHChristy:Mow, I do not PHMowgli:k borzoid:I did cut other puppies away but learned that I didn't need to "leave" the placenta in the process, just hang on to it until the next contraction. pbecca_nr:No.... The oldest is 16 mos. and I do not breed until the bitch is 2 yrs and OFA'd PHMowgli:howdy sam PHChristy:Hi Sams!!! Welcome to Dog Breeding Chat! Our topic tonight is Feeding for Breeding! jada1938:Does anyone else precondition a bitch nutritionally before she come in season you will breed? SamsSammy:Hi everyone. PHChristy:pbecca, what is the breed? borzoid:weird, one of my posts disappeared wyndrushlabs_nr:hi PHChristy:jada, I do, actually .... PHChristy:I start giving the bitch a small amount of carbs (cooked sweet potatos, oatmeal) ... as carbohydrate can help with pregnancy PHMowgli:jada I like to keep all my dogs in condition all the time so no not really jada1938:I know you do, Christy PHChristy:LOL jada wyndrushlabs_nr:mine did to PHMowgli:Christy my dogs are carb addicts as you know so that is not an issue for me LOL PHChristy:LOL Mowgli wyndrushlabs_nr:i am trying to see what i am doing here PHChristy:that's common in herding breeds, I think PHChristy:wyndrush, you're doing great.... jada1938:Mine get top food, the good old crockpot, but about 3 months before the season I use extra C and E, B complex includintg folic acid. PHChristy:windspirit, Welcome to Dog Breeding Chat! Our topic tonight is Feeding for Breeding! PHMowgli:I think so too christy from all the herding people I know PHChristy:Hi Shilling! Welcome to Dog Breeding Chat! Our topic tonight is Feeding for Breeding! windspirit:hello everyone PHMowgli:hey wind and shilling PHMowgli:wb borz Shilling:hi everyone PHChristy:Other than a small amount of quality carbohydrate, I use some tonic herbs.... just general tonic herbs, nothing uterine-specific such as red raspberry jada1938:Hi to all the newcomers kaana:I only use home cooking, been doidng it for the last 30 years wyndrushlabs_nr:Hi PHChristy:WB Borzoid PHChristy:kaana :) borzoid:wow - I was in limbo there for a while Shilling:which tonic herbs do you add Christy PHMowgli:borz maybe the storms that were supposed to hit us today mainelybt:I'm just lurking, hope you don't mind, I have Bt's but we don't breed and probably won't for another couple of years, jsut researching right now PHChristy:toward late pregnancy I give a lactation/growth recipe to my bitches, but for most of their pregnancy they are just on their usual raw, homemade diet, except for the addition of the small amount of carb PHChristy:mainelybt, you're very welcome to be here! PHChristy:Dana, if you are not sure what's going on, just feel free to jump in with any comments or questions on nutrition and breeding :) jada1938:I will shortly be getting a Hav bitch and having a toy litter is so different than the larger breeds I have had...size of pups and litters, so looking for info. pbecca_nr:I had a litter of pups (from that bitch) who are now 12 wks and they are great. I gave my bitch Nutro Lamb and Rice and supplimented her with raw chicken breast. On the day the pups were born I started with supplements to the bitch of DHA (Fish Oil) as there have been some studies on humans and dogs about increasing intelligence. PHChristy:jada, yes, I think there is a lot of difference PHChristy:pbecca, I have asked now about six times what breed this is... if you answered and I missed it I apologize, but I'd like to knwo the breed. wyndrushlabs_nr:brb jada1938:Interesting abaout the DHA and intelligence!! pbecca_nr:German Shepherd Dog PHChristy:pbecca, thank you. :) jada1938:Other than size of pups and litters, what do you think are the differences? PHChristy:jada, hypoglycemia PHChristy:liver shunts PHMowgli:pda GoldenPup_nr:I read some that (DHA) too, Iams (...I know...) has done some research on that and has a booklet abou tit... PHChristy:those are the two big ones pbecca_nr:They are a lively bunch of pups . jada1938:I did learn that a littermate of one of my boys was hypoglycemic. But the liver shunts aren't common in this breed, yet anyway. PHMowgli:hey eclat PHChristy:the things that worry me about supplementing with Omega 3s is the effect they have on prostaglandin production and possible hormone disruption EClatSPs:Hey! PHChristy:Hi, EClatSPs! Welcome to Dog Breeding Chat! Our topic tonight is Feeding for Breeding! PHChristy:worries me, rather PHChristy:Hi Trav! Welcome to Dog Breeding Chat! Our topic tonight is Feeding for Breeding! PHMowgli:howdy trav jada1938:Is that Iams booklet on the DHA and intelligence available online? PHMowgli:christy what are the effects of over supplementing with fish oils? EClatSPs:Looks like a good turnout tonight! PHMowgli:howdy liz pbecca_nr:The supplement was cheap so I thought well if they are supplementing babies then maybe it is good for pups.... PHChristy:TravlinPom, Jada is going to have her first litter of toys (she has previously had larger breeds) and is wondering about differences in nutritional needs for reproduction and lactation, I was not sure what to say beyond concerns over hypoglycemia and liver shunts PHChristy:Hi thre Liz! Welcome to Dog Breeding Chat! Our topic tonight is Feeding for Breeding! PHChristy:EClatSPs, yes, and I'm glad to see you, it's been a while! jada1938:Anyone concerned about mercury with the fish oils? Liz77:good evening all - I feed puppy chow plus tums to bitches in whelp PHChristy:Jada, yes, I get one assayed to be mercury free GoldenPup_nr:jada-I doubg it, ask your vet maybe, a relative (who is a vet) sent it to me, thought I'd be interested. EClatSPs:Been having too much fun playing with these puppies! Not to mention the lack of sleep... jada1938:Thanks, Golden pup PHChristy:LOL EClat, how old are they? EClatSPs:Hey, Ann! So you're having a litter of Havs? EClatSPs:Congrats! jada1938:Which one is that, Christy PHChristy:Liz, I wonder... .puppy chow is high in calcium and then to add the tums... you aren't concerned about oversupplementing calcium? EClatSPs:Two weeks old this past sunday. travlinpom_nr:Christy, I am not a big advocate of supplements for pregnant girls, I have seen too many problems from them, feed a good quality food and forget the supplements PHChristy:jada, Carlsons. I've had a new one recommended though EClatSPs:Getting to be a *lot* of fun now! PHChristy:EClat, awwww! jada1938:Not for a while...the bitch will be six months in a week... Liz77:Chrisaty had a bitch go into calcium insuffiency - and apparently it is secreted like Vitamin C ...... jada1938:But now that I have the two males, thought I should start learning about it now. EClatSPs:I didn't supplement during Harley pg, just gave a good raw diet. PHChristy:I have a theory about this subject jada1938:I did have uterine inertia once due to the Ca, but subq Ca took care of it,.
EClatSPs:
PHChristy:Most vets, including pretty much every repro vet I know, will tell you "feed a good commercial food" and then now and then they'll also recommend one or two supplements they've had experience of
SamsSammy:Phone...be bk later.
jada1938:Which subject, Christy?
PHChristy:but check out what HUMAN repro people have to say....
PHChristy:and you'll hear a very different story
PHMowgli:hey borz
Liz77:<~~~don't do supplements
PHChristy:there is a whole spectrum of nutritional recommendations for pregnant women
borzoid:HI am I here now?
PHMowgli:yes borz
jada1938:Where did you see pix of the boys???? Razzle is out of Oscar's dam by Twister's sire.
windspirit:wb borzoid
borzoid:I've been in limbo lol
PHChristy:alternative practicioners, midwives, nurses, and doctors alike, will give you many dietary suggestions for an optimal pregnancy
EClatSPs:All my sister was allowed to take during her pg was tums for morning sickness, but nothing else.
borzoid:Hi windspirit
PHChristy:for managing blood sugar and fetal development
PHChristy:and all kinds of things
PHChristy:they will recommend buckets of supplements
PHChristy:fresh foods
PHChristy:to avoid many things
jada1938:Christyk, these sound very intertsing.
EClatSPs:I *think* it was on dogmentor, but I could be wrong... I know you had posted them somewhere.
PHChristy:and yet, in vet practice, we're often treated as if we're nuts for even asking
jada1938:oops, delete that 'k'
Liz77:Mid-wifes are wonderful, so are obstrecians, but we are talking different species.....canine vs. humonid
PHChristy:I think that's really wrong and counter-productive
PHChristy:Liz, that makes absolutely no difference
jada1938:Dogmentor..what happened to that list/????
PHMowgli:my brother who is a vet says we should give a high quality vitamin supplement to pregnant bitches just as a human takes prenatal vitamins'
PHChristy:mammalian pregnancy is simply not all that different across species
Liz77:okay, sorry
PHChristy:there are some differences, but they are in the specifics, not the general concepts
EClatSPs:It's still there. I have been wondering what happened to you.
borzoid:I did not give a supplement but I did feed puppy food throughout the pregnancy
jada1938:Mowgli, but if we are using a high quality growth/puppy food that is designed for that, wouldn't using a vit supp thow off the balance, over sup on some things.
travlinpom_nr:I gave supplements years ago, but have since learned to feed better foods and skip supplements
PHChristy:jada, yes, we have to keep the whole diet in mind
PHChristy:Humans don't get fed Human Chow
jada1938:Every time I sent a mail it didn't go thru.
borzoid:LOL
PHChristy:or even the "high end" version of H uman Chow
EClatSPs:Hmmm...
PHMowgli:jada I am not sure he tells people to switch to puppy though
PHChristy:so let me argue this even one step further
PHChristy:if we decide we are going to feed a commercial food, fine
PHChristy:but what if we're not?
PHChristy:why are we often laughed at for EVEN ASKING THE QUESTION?
EClatSPs:I didn't and just gave a lot of variety, whatever the bitch wanted.
borzoid:you mean a barf diet
PHChristy:or dismissed as being nuts?
PHChristy:borzoid, it doesn't have to be barf, any form of homemade, fresh foods diet
PHMowgli:well I would think if what we feed is a maintance feed whether raw or cooked or kibble we need to supplement
PHChristy:raw OR cooked
jada1938:That is when I rely on my trusty crockpot that has worked for so many years.
PHChristy:let's face it, fresh, whole foods are the best, if we can manage it. Best for us as well as our dogs.
PHChristy:we need to look at the whole diet
PHChristy:and if the basis of our diet is a commercial food, it would be insane to supplement that without examining how the supplements and the commercial diet will interact
PHChristy:it's very easy to over-supplement that way
PHMowgli:well I know my girls want gerber baby food after they whelp for first day or two LOL
PHChristy:but I dont' think "feed a good diet and forget about it" is the last word on reproductive nutrition in dogs
PHChristy:and yet, it's what most of us are told
jada1938:Scrambled eggsk cottage cheese and raw chopped liver is what mine have liked for the first day or so.
PHChristy:I know my sister in law, who is pregnant right now, was sent to a several week nutrition class
borzoid:what natural foods would be added (other than extra milk products) during pregnancy
EClatSPs:Most girls want extra organ meat.
BarbW:The main reason as I see it for supplementing (human and canine) is because so many of our food sources come for nutrient deficient soils...the goodies are not in the food from the get go...
PHChristy:I don't know all that much about supplementing kibble, beyond recommending the three recipes in Dr. Pitcairn's book, which will not unbalance the diet
jada1938:(Darn, that 'k' keeps showing up..sorry.
travlinpom_nr:I wont argue the supplement question . . . i tried it and it didnt work, caused problems, i dont use them anymore and have not had the problems, if you ask for an "opinion" that is what you will get, just my "Opinion"
PHMowgli:well I know bitches who ever maintained a pregnancy then they got into a bag of sweet potatos and they retained that pregnancy so what is in them they must need LOL
Liz77:Mowgli - no comment to that
PHChristy:Trav, don't get me wrong....
EClatSPs:I think they a
EClatSPs:Oops!
PHMowgli:not my bitch mind you but posted to many lists
EClatSPs:I think they often know better than we do what their bodies need.
PHChristy:I think the most important thing is to stop dividing the diet up into "diet" and "supplements" ... you have to look at the whole thing.
PHMowgli:Trav what problems did they cause if you do not mind my asking
PHChristy:I'm not saying to GIVE or NOT GIVE supplements
PHChristy:because it would depend on what's in the diet
bossanovabassets:Hi everyone. Just got home. I've always switched to a premium puppy food during the very last few weeks of a pregnancy. Overdoing on Calcium can cause a problem.
PHChristy:hiya bossa! Welcome to Dog Breeding Chat! Our topic tonight is Feeding for Breeding!
PHChristy:bossa, and yet if you believe that... puppy foods are higher in calcium than adult foods.
jada1938:The balance of Calcium and other things is just as important as enough calcium!!
PHChristy:I'm just making a case for looking at the diet and supplements together, not seperately, not recommending giving them or not giving them.
bossanovabassets:I do, and I believe that that much of an incerase in calcium is enough ...without additional supplementation.
borzoid:I agree jada
PHMowgli:ok who thinks we need to add iron to diet whether as organ meats or supplements after whelping?
borzoid:The commercial puppy foods have the balance built in but if you aren't feeding commercial how do you know you are getting it all
Liz77:Christy brought up the human vs. dog thing, what Obs vs. DVMs say - OBs say "LOTS of calcium, drink milk, take vitamins, yada yad" because the fetus/baby sucks calcium
bossanovabassets:Balance is important no matter what....right borzoid.
EClatSPs:Based on what my girl craved during the end of her pregnancy, I'd guess that she needed iron.
jada1938:Ca and /D
Liz77:not me Mowgli
EClatSPs:And phosphorus
PHMowgli:EClat makes sense
borzoid:phosphorus
jada1938:Yes, andPh--thanks, had a mental ....
EClatSPs:She wanted mostly organ meats, with very litte of anything else.
bossanovabassets:The calcium is more important as the puppies reach about 3-4 weeks and are nursing quite a lot. Then as the pups eat more food on their own, the calcium levels must be dropped.
PHMowgli:and one other thing I think we all need to remember is that each bitch is different
PHChristy:this is from a guest chat we did with Karen Copely from WhelpWise
PHChristy:WhelpWise:it is my opinion that increasing the bitch's calcium consumption the last seven days of pregnancy when puppies began to substantially put on bone is a good idea
borzoid:True and each pregnancy different too
EClatSPs:She had a very easy delivery of eight puppies in under six hours...and these were *big* puppies for a petite girl like herself (ranging from 12.5 to 15.5 oz).
PHChristy:WhelpWise:the research that showed calcium supplementation being bad and causing eclampsia was done on a very small group of dogs who were given in excess of 250,000 mgs of calcium a day for their entire pregnancy
PHChristy:She also said.... WhelpWise:however, we are beginning a research project looking at Vitamin D being deficient and possibly contributing to whelping issues, because it deregulates calcium metabolism
PHChristy:I'll contact her and see if she has done that research and let you know
EClatSPs:That all makes a lot of sense.
PHChristy:I think that, for me, the jury is out on the calcium issue
EClatSPs:I look forward to seeing it!
BarbW:Aaarrrggh.....why do they always do extremes when running these "tests"???
PHChristy:Hi neehipugs! Welcome to Dog Breeding Chat! Tonight we're discussing "Feeding for Breeding"!
PHChristy:LOL Barb, good question!
Liz77:night all
PHChristy:I've always fed calcium-rich foods, but not given calcium SUPPLEMENTS to my bitches
neehipugs_nr:hELLO THIS SOUNDS INTERESTING
PHChristy:night Liz!
PHChristy:neehi... :)
jada1938:Nite Liz
PHMowgli:Christy you may remember my question in the Dr. Hutch seminar about the uterus not contracting well my vet had another bitch last week with same problem, blood work showed lack of calcium for the uterus to contract fully so how knows
PHMowgli:how=who
EClatSPs:All muscle action is completely dependent on calcium in the blood, so that's reasonable.
PHChristy:Mowgli, that's not related to dietary calcium though
jada1938:That was the uterine inertia I had one time...ended up at the vets in the middle of the nite and he gave sub Q Ca..all was fine.
borzoid:I also looked to the fatty acids that seemed to drain right out of my girl during her pregnancy
PHChristy:It is related to calcium metabolism
jada1938:The only time in all my litters I had that happen, tho.
neehipugs_nr:So what does the group recommend feeding a bitch before breeding
PHChristy:this might be MORE related to the vitamin D issue, or it could be from TOO MUCH dietary calcium, which can cause negative feedback with the parathyroid gland
borzoid:hi kato
PHChristy:Hi kato! Welcome to Dog Breeding Chat! Tonight we're discussing "Feeding for Breeding"!
PHMowgli:but christy if the bitch did ot recieve enough the body cannot metabolise what is not there
kato_nr:hi
PHChristy:neehi, well, we haven't agreed
EClatSPs:Couldn't it be both? I mean, if there's not enough calcium in the diet to metablolze?
neehipugs_nr:ok
PHChristy:Mowgli, usually though the normal body will just take calcium from the skeleton or teeth
PHChristy:some of us are advocating a homemade diet, some a commercial diet. Some of us like supplements, some don't.
PHMowgli:but we are talking aobut for labor not for body to be normally functioning
PHChristy:The reason they say not to supplement calcium is the though that it will disrupt the body's calcium metabolism BUT
borzoid:OK - so could some of these issues be specific to breed with large bone mass or minimal bone mass
BarbW:Doesn't magnesium come into the equations when talking about calcium uptake or absorption??
PHChristy:exactly, Mow... but I don't think that DIETARY calcium will positively influence that, possibly to the contrary
EClatSPs:Potassium
EClatSPs:And VitD
PHChristy:Barb is absolutely right, there are all kinds of other minerals and vitamins and even hormones that influence calcium metabolism
PHChristy:during labor and otherwise
PHMowgli:and I have no clue what the bitch was fed mine were on commercial kibble and hommade diet
jada1938:The interaction of all the minerals is very important and must be in the proper ratios to be fully effective.
PHChristy:Borzoid, I think so but I don't know
PHChristy:I think that for giant breeds this is critical, but I'm not entirely sure how much breed really influences it
jada1938:That is why I am cautious about supplementing versus using top foods.
neehipugs_nr:I am feeding Pro Plan with no supplements, but have missed two breedings with her one was surgical, and the other AI
PHChristy:hi ravenbourne! Welcome to Dog Breeding Chat! Tonight we're discussing "Feeding for Breeding"!
borzoid:I would think that the balance would have to be adjusted accordingly.
PHChristy:neehipugs, have you done ovulation timing? progesterone testing etc?
PHMowgli:yes so should we run bloodwork to get levels pre breeding and post breeding?
BarbW:So, perhaps the whole electrolyte spectrum should be included, rather than concentrating on just one or two minerals.
neehipugs_nr:did progesterone
jada1938:neehi, I used to use Pro Plan and about 3 months before she came in would start extra C, E, and B complex with folic acid. Never missed a breeding including a surgical AI with frozen.
neehipugs_nr:ok, what do you feed now
jada1938:But every bitch for over 15 years also got a ladle from the crockpot which varied day to day depending on what went into it.
borzoid:barb I think they are all needed but in what balance
jada1938:My bitch is too old to breed now and I don't yet have a Hav bitch.
PHChristy:Mowgli, I don't think so.... the body will do everything it can to keep serum calcium levels normal, even in the face of severe disruption of calcium metabolism
PHChristy:Hi PugCountry! Welcome to Dog Breeding Chat! Tonight we're discussing "Feeding for Breeding"!
PugCountry_nr:hi
PHChristy:neehi, what did they think of the look of her uterus when they did the surgical?
PugCountry_nr:I thought this was a chat room I could get advice on my pug
PugCountry_nr:is it for dog breeding only?
PHChristy:PugCountry, right now we are having a special discussion on dog breeding, and nutrition....
neehipugs_nr:they said it look "ripe"
PHChristy:neehipugs, do you know what they meant by that?
PHChristy:no sign of cysts or any other problems?
borzoid:who said that PugCountry
neehipugs_nr:not really, he thought she should have took
PHChristy:neehi, that does seem odd. How old is your bitch and has she ever had pups?
neehipugs_nr:she is 4, and she had a natural breeding and produced 7 pups
jada1938:Was this a repro specialist?
PHChristy:I just want to mention again, that I am not sure what I think about calcium related suppelmentation in pregnancy, I could go either way at this point.
PHChristy:I need more info
neehipugs_nr:yes, he was recommended as one, and seemed very knowledgable
PHMowgli:Christy I agree I think we need to go dog by dog on supplements in general
borzoid:OK so taking this one step further, does diet in any way affect the dog in a cyclic way or effect hormones?
bossanovabassets:I think often the problem is that people think if a small supplement is useful....more must be even better.
PHChristy:borzoid, absolutely!
jada1938:Christy, both the boys have finished.
PHChristy:neehipugs, but is he a boarded specialist?
jada1938:Time for bed...nite all...
PHChristy:night jada!!
windspirit:night jada
BarbW:More is rarely better except for money :-)
PHMowgli:and points from shows barb LOL
PHChristy:there is a local vet who is quite a quack, and many people believe he is a "repro specialist," I wouldn't let him hold my dogs LEASH
bossanovabassets:LOL Barb!!!!
PHChristy:and yet a lot of people just adore him
PHChristy:he's totally incompetent and money hungry
PHChristy:and no, you're NOT going to get me to tell you who he is, LOL
borzoid:So my girl has a very long cycle - can I affect this with diet
PHMowgli:he he christy read my mind LOL
EClatSPs:From what I understand, a long cycle is much healthier for the bitch.
PHMowgli:I heard same thing Eclat 10-12 mths is healthier on bitch
bossanovabassets:I know how that is Christy....I had a vet here who would have done dibiltating (sp) surgery on my bitch's legs as they were "going to give her horrible problems". The only thing wrong with her is she is a basset.
borzoid:She is 10-11 months between
EClatSPs:My girl cycles at 7 month intervals. I've heard that most bitches who have shorter than 5 month cycles have repro problems.
PHMowgli:mine go 8 mths
bossanovabassets:I'd rather have long than short cycles every day. I"ve had bitches with 4 month cycles.....never could get her pg...even with the help of DR. Hutch and other repro bets.
borzoid:Am heading there friday - will take a look
bossanovabassets:vets...that is.
PHChristy:I absolutely believe a long cycle is better, why do you want to shorten it, Borzoid?
PHChristy:borzoid, all my bitches are 10-13 months between, I consider that totally normal and desirable.
PHChristy:that should be 10-12
borzoid:I don't know that I want to shorten it - maybe make it more predictable
PHChristy:I've never in my LIFE had a bitch cycle shorter than 10 months
PHChristy:hi thedoc! Welcome to Dog Breeding Chat! Tonight we're discussing "Feeding for Breeding"!
PHMowgli:howdy doc
thedoc617:hi guys
PHChristy:Borzoid, are the cycles irregular?
borzoid:she did have one short cycle and the rest long - didn't have her first heat until 20 mo
BarbW:Christy....is that possibly a breed thing...the long cycle
PHMowgli:Christy but smaller dogs often cycle at 8 -10 mths
thedoc617:mow, i got a 95 on my biology test
PHChristy:borzoid, again, that's normal.... Dr. Hutch says anything before 24 months is normal in a large breed
PHChristy:absolutely Mow, or 6 months
windspirit:hi doc
PHMowgli:woohoo doc congrats!!!!!!
borzoid:I don't know how the pregnancy will affect the cycle
PHChristy:the usual thing is, the smaller the breed, the more frequently they cycle
borzoid:makes sense
BarbW:My Sibs were 6-7 months like clock work
PHChristy:my bitches have never come in season earlier than 20 months
borzoid:congrats dog
PHChristy:thank god, LOL
borzoid:doc*
thedoc617:thanks, i missed you guys on thursday night, but I'm glad I studied.
PHMowgli:my first seasons are between 10 and 14 mths and always 8 mths thereon
EClatSPs:I think 20 months for a first cycle would be great!
travlinpom_nr:hmmmm I have one girl who cycles every five months, no problems . . . I also have a girl who cycles every 8 or 9 months, also no problems
EClatSPs:My girl's first was at 13 months.
PHChristy:Hi, Armor! Welcome to Dog Breeding Chat! Tonight we're discussing "Feeding for Breeding"!
PHMowgli:hey armor
PHChristy:Trav, I think there is great natural variation
borzoid:The boys have been sniffing her a lot lately and posturing but it's only been 4.5 months since the babies
Armor16:Hi folks
PHMowgli:trav I would think that is prolly normal for the toy breeds
PHChristy:and a split heat can happen in any breed...
PHChristy:sometimes we think our bitches are short cycling but they had a split heat
PHChristy:and its' the second half of the split heat that's the fertile heat, usually
PHMowgli:ashley has split heat seasons always did
borzoid:what is a split heat
travlinpom_nr:Mow, my point is that there isnt a "normal" for a breed . . .just a "normal" for each bitch
ravenbourne:how bad do the "false pregnancies" get for y'all???
PHMowgli:and yes her second round was fertile period LOL
PHChristy:where they come in heat, then go out, and then come in again very soon afterward
BarbW:wow, split heat...that is a new one for me
PHChristy:normally they do not ovulate in the first heat
PHChristy:just bleed and maybe flag
PHChristy:then go out
PHMowgli:normally 2-3 weeks after
borzoid:Oh ok
PHChristy:then a month or so later, they come in again
PHChristy:and this time they DO ovulate
PHMowgli:but often little bleeding
BarbW:That really sounds like some mis-signaling
PHChristy:I think that there is a lot of variation that can be considered "normal"
PHChristy:a body is not a machine
PHChristy:and judging by my car and my computer, not even machines are that reliable LOL
borzoid:LOL
EClatSPs:
BarbW:LOL and humans too
PHMowgli:Well I know my dogs are much more normal than me LOL
PHChristy:LOL Barb
PHChristy:LOL Mow
EClatSPs:True for me, too!
PHChristy:all this is true
borzoid:Stress and environment are factors too
PHChristy:absolutely
BarbW:altho...since that is all behind me there is only one cycle...none LOL
borzoid:I need to run folks - training in detroit early a.m.
PHChristy:LOL
PHChristy:night borzoid!
borzoid:LOL
EClatSPs:night.
PHMowgli:I hope soon for me Barb LOL
PHMowgli:nite borz
borzoid:nite all
PHChristy:well, we got hot and heavy and then got VERY quiet LOL
BarbW:whew....breathing again
EClatSPs:lol
thedoc617:okay guys, i've got a question for you breeders, (before we change to Showdog chat)
PHMowgli:ok what does everyone think of those supplements like breed heat and bitch pills?
PHMowgli:all natural supposedly and designed for breeding health
BarbW:are we now talking about aphrodesiacs?
PHMowgli:hey emme
PHChristy:Hi there emmemay! Welcome to Dog Breeding Chat! Tonight we're discussing "Feeding for Breeding"!
thedoc617:at what age do you let the puppies away for their momma. (there have been so many debates on the net about age)
EClatSPs:I've heard good things about some...
PHChristy:thedoc, 12 weeks is the absolute soonest
PHMowgli:doc never before 10-12 weeks
bossanovabassets:I have used Bitch pills, but don't know if they helped at all.
PHChristy:for any breed
bossanovabassets:Doc, my puppies are at least 10 weeks old before they go anywhere.
thedoc617:i have heard 8-10 weeks, (but then they don't get bite inhibition, and will develop problems in life)
PHMowgli:and if they away from momma as you said it is for day only not nightime
travlinpom_nr:the doc, what do you mean by "away from mom"? Permanently? in toy breeds, 12 wks is the absolute earliest
EClatSPs:Mine will be 10-12 weeks...
PHMowgli:hey lys
Armor16:and in great danes it's much earlier
PHChristy:hi Chilys! Welcome to Dog Breeding Chat! Tonight we're discussing "Feeding for Breeding"!
thedoc617:i was just wonering, because the other day at the groom shop we got in a 6 week old lab
PHMowgli:hi hihope
PHChristy:hi Hi_hope! Welcome to Dog Breeding Chat! Tonight we're discussing "Feeding for Breeding"!
PHChristy:thedoc, that's criminal IMO
PHChristy:unless it was an orphan?
thedoc617:we wouldn't take it, because it didn't have the vaccinations
PHMowgli:wow doc that is awful
travlinpom_nr:THat is actually illegal in many states . . . to sell that young
thedoc617:no, the owner got it from a breeder. (BYB red flags going off in my head)
PHChristy:a "breeder"... a criminal
windspirit:should be illegal
Chilys:Hi! (will there be transcripts from tonight's chat by chance? Grooming dogs took WAY long tonight...)
PHChristy:not that I have an opinion
PHChristy:Chilys, you bet!
bossanovabassets:A lot of byb's place at 6 weeks...in many cases they don't know better. Iwas raised with placing puts that young.....have learnded sooooooo much more since then.
PHChristy:Chilys, are you on the reminder list? I will send it out
bossanovabassets:oops...placing pups.
Chilys:Yep, time just got away from me-well, my pup actually, LOL!
PHMowgli:do we have a topic for next week?
PHChristy:Chilys, I mean I'll send out the link to the transcript :)
PHChristy:Mow we do
Hi_hope_nr:We just got home from my son's baseball practice. Much rather been in here
PHChristy:we set it last week
PHChristy:WB Armor!
PHChristy:folks, we're about to switch to Showdog Chat... take it away, Mowgli!
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