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PHMorgan: TOpic tonight will be A Simple WHelping

PHMorgan: I'm gonna get started, everyone can please save questions and comments until the end. Please keep in mind I'm a breeder, not a vet....

bossanovabassets: Hi there

PHChristy: Hi everyone! Welcome to Dog Breeding Chat! Our topic tonight is "Normal Whelping: An Overview." Tonight we will be having a special format, where if you have a question or a comment, please just type ? or ! into the room, and wait to be called on.

PHMorgan: So... Momdog has been bred, momdog is preggers, and momdog is now eating us out of house and home. We know she's due imminently, and she's spent the last 2-3 days nesting everywhere except the box, including that nicely folded basket of laundry...

GAChesters: LOLOL Mo

GAChesters: Hi Rueger

Rueger: hey guys

PHMorgan: We have a general idea that she is due in about 24 hours, because we've been monitoring her temperature 2X a day for about 3-4 days

PHMorgan: It's now about 98 degrees, and has been so for about 12 hours, so we know puppies are coming soon.

GAChesters: wb boss!

PHMorgan: WE have called out of work, notified our vet and naturally have had momdog eat and sleep, as much as she would, in her nice clean whelping box,.

PHMorgan: I like to line the box, for WHELPING, with newspaper or other absorbent materials because it is messy and can be a bit smelly and once pups are all here we can simply throw it all out and give momdog and babies a nice clean blankie

PHMorgan: YOu will have some coffee made. YOu will have a nice book, maybe a trusted friend who can lend a hand (a breeder mentor is a good choice).

PHMorgan: Don't have any one else - too many spectators make momdog nervous and can actually cause her to put off delivery or act strangely when pups arrive

PHMorgan: WE want Momdog to be relaxed and comfortable, as much as possible

PHMorgan: NOw, once the temperature has dropped, nesting usually increase dramatically (digging, ripping papers and bedding). We definitely want momdog IN THE BOX. YOu will probably have to stay with her - most of our momdog are pretty attached to us and like us with them.

PHMorgan: MOmdog will be panting and drinking a lot of water. Most will refuse food, but if you feel it's necessary, offer small amounts.

PHChristy: ?

PHMorgan: This panting stage can go on FOR HOURS. Sometimes MANY hours. If she has had her temp drop for longer than 24 hours AND has been panting for more than 24 hours without seeming to make any further progress, you might wanna call your vet and see what he recommends

PHMorgan: GA< Christy

PHChristy: Morgan, in your experience, if the mom dog WANTS to eat, do you feel it's better not to let her? Or is it entirely an individual thing?

GAChesters: !

PHChristy: after me will be GAC.... I will call on you in a sec :)

PHMorgan: In MY PERSONAL opinion,k whatever momdog wants that keeps her calm and comfortable is OK. The worst that happens is she throws it up. Usally no harm done

PHChristy: great, thanks. GA GAC

PHMorgan: Some of my momdogs eat like pigs, but most will not eat at all

PHMorgan: Go ahead, GAC

PHChristy: I agree with you btw

PHMorgan: I know.... hehehe

GAChesters: I was just going to interject my Momdogs are usually ralphing.. LOL

PHMorgan: Yes, even some of mine who refuse food will sometimes gag up some bile or whatever. So long as they seem otherwise OK and aren't vomiting constantly, I don't worry.

PHMorgan: Now, frequently momdogs will want to go out during this period and other times during whelping.

PHMorgan: This is OK, but PUT HER ON A LEAD, even if your yard is fenced, and if it's dark, TAKE A FLASHLIGHT and don't take your eyes off her

PHMorgan: Sometimes the walking will stimulate more labor and you don't want her to deliver a puppy outside if you can help it

PHMorgan: And, you don't want her running off to have her pups under your deck - which is a very real possibility, no matter HOW pampered she is or how nice her box is

PHMorgan: So... panting has been going on FOREVER> YOu are just beginning to worry when momdog gets very quiet, and you see her abdomen RIPPLE

PHMorgan: Sometimes she will grunt, others are silent

PHMorgan: Some momdogs will even moan, whine, or cry out

PHMorgan: YOu want to note down the time that you perceive she begins "pushing."

PHMorgan: Usually, once momdog begins pushing, she will usually deliver the pup within 30 minutes, but longer is also common....... If more than 60 minutes goes by and no pupy, call your vet. He will tell you what to do, usualy to wait a bit longer, but he often will want her brought in once more than 1 1/2 hours has gone by

PHMorgan: After some pushing (this varies a lot by dog, general physical fitness, the size of the pup, whatever) a dark-looking bubble will appear at momdog's vulva. THis will often move in and out with her contractions

PHMorgan: Usually this will break, or momdog will break it. During this time, she will be licking copiously at the area

PHMorgan: THis is OK

PHChristy: !

PHMorgan: GA

PHChristy: she will also be cursing the stud dog, that's normal also.

PHChristy: ;)

PHMorgan: Um, yep, pretty normal

PHMorgan: I know I did... hehee

PHChristy: LOL

PHMorgan: NOw, next you will see the vulva stretching even MORE, and this should be a puppy.l You will see a large bulge above the vulva, just below the tail.

PHMorgan: THis is the puppy coming through the vagina over the pelvis. Momdog should be able to deliver the puppy with a few more pushes.

PHMorgan: If this doesn't happen, call your vet and ask what to do next. Do not let this go on for more than about 10 minutes - you want the pup out. YOu will be able to see if momdog is in any distress about this

PHMorgan: But normally, puppy will slide out quickly.

PHMorgan: Now - we will discuss everyone's options once puppy is OUT after this brief lecture, but what *I* do is break the sac myself and clear the pup's airway

PHMorgan: I let momdog do most of the cleaning and chew the cord (the more she does, the better care she will take of the pups - the more YOU do, the less she will do - she will feel they are YOURS )

GAChesters: Me 2

PHMorgan: I just prefer to make sure the pup is breathgin OK right away

GAChesters: Couple of my Momdogs don't want anything to do with a slimy puppy! haha they wait patiently while I clean puppy up for them

PHMorgan: Don't worry if the pup doesn't begin zooming around the box the first minute or two. They have had a long, hard journey and might need a few moments to adjust to the trauma of delivery, adn figure out those lungs.

PHChristy: ?

PHMorgan: But puppy should be breathing cleanly on his own and trying to find MOmdog and a nipple very soon - if this doesn't happen, call your vet

PHMorgan: GA, christy

PHChristy: Morgan, do you use a little bulb to clear the lungs or just swing them?

PHChristy: personally I just swing them.... but I have no strong feelings either way.

PHMorgan: I hold them upside down (head down, belly to floor) and rub them VIGOROUSLY with a towel. I would equate teh strenght of the rubbing with trying to rub out a spot on your countertop - pretty firm!

PHChristy: I mean clear the airway, not the lungs

PHChristy: I do that also, plus I do a little gentle swinging

PHMorgan: Sometimes I will swing them, but usually momdog gets REALLY bent out of shape about this, so I try to avoid that unless I feel teh pup is really in distress.

PHMorgan: IF that happens, sometimes I will leave the room or give the puppy to a competent helper.

PHMorgan: My momdogs usually get very possessive of their pups and get quite irritated if I am messing with them. One will actually take the puppy in her mouth to get it away from me

PHMorgan: So - temper your handling with momdog's attitude, if pup is in distress, and you must, get pup away from mom

PHMorgan: Meanwhile, now that pup is OK...

PHMorgan: YOu need to account for the placenta (a spongy, oogy, green and purple blob that comes right out with the pup - it's attached to the umbilical cord)

carlie_nr: hi all

PHMorgan: Make sure you know that she has delivered the placenta - often momdog will eat it. This is gross, but fine for her. Good nutrition in a placenta

PHMorgan: I usually let momdog eat as many as she wants. Too many will cause pretty severe diahrrea, but this seems harmless outside of being kinda gross, so I don't worry about it

PHMorgan: Again, for me, whatever momdog wants is pretty OK by me - her instincts are USUALLY correct

PHMorgan: Now, often momdog will take a break in between pups.

PHMorgan: This is nice for us, because it gives US time to catch OUR breath, and weight the pup, look at it, get a new cup of coffee, call teh stud owner, clean up the box, and get ready for the next one

PHMorgan: OFten I will walk momdog in between pups - especially if the delivery is going slowly

PHChristy: !

PHMorgan: Now - usually momdog will get back to work pushing in about 15-20 minutes, but longer is ok. You should call your vet if more than an hour has gone by and she isn't getting back to work - he will tell you what to do next

PHMorgan: Go ahead

PHChristy: Typically I find my m oms will not leave their babies between whelping

PHMorgan: Mine would prefer not to, as well, but if say, a 1/2 hour has gone by and she still isn't pushing, I will put a lead on and trot her around the yard once and let her go back

PHMorgan: If you do this, make sure the pup is kept warm while momdog is gone

PHMorgan: So, that is a SIMPLE whelping. Naturally there is a lot more to it if there are problems, and you can see how TIME is the big question for any breeder - how long is too long between pups? HOw long is too long BEFORE any pups? HOw long is too long for pup in the birth canal?

PHMorgan: THese things vary greatly by pup, momdog and your breed - and this is where having a GREAT vet, a good mentor and being educated before breeding a litter are VERY important

bossanovabassets: ?

PHMorgan: In an ideal world, momdog does it all, and you just sit back and change newspapers! But that isn't always how it goes...

PHMorgan: Go ahead, Bassanova

bossanovabassets: It always feels like it has been longer than it has been while you are waiting...make sure to take the chance to rest some yourself while the mom is taking a break between pupsters.

PHMorgan: Also, it's a GOOD idea to note down teh time of each pup's delivery

PHMorgan: I had a litter of 10 pups

PHChristy: great idea!

PHMorgan: The first few were about 20 minutes apart, then the next couple 30 minutes apart

PHMorgan: THen 45.... The 8th pup was born a hour after the 7th, and the last 2 were nearly 1 1/2 hours between...

bossanovabassets: ?

PHChristy: GA bossa

PHMorgan: That's a pretty long time, but my vet felt that since she had so many, that had been delivered with no trouble, she was just tiring and her body was giving her more time to deliver

PHMorgan: Knowing how things had progressed helped him and me to decide whether to interfere

bossanovabassets: Then again you can have the whelping where you think all is done, finally take a break to walk in the other room and come back to one more puppy than you expected.......several hours later...

PHMorgan: It's a good idea, if you CAN, to have some idea how many pups to expect. I personally like to x-ray. Many folks don't like to

PHMorgan: IT's not 100% reliable, but it does give you SOME idea

bossanovabassets: ?

PHChristy: ga again bossa :)

PHMorgan: Also, with mhy dogs I can FEEL if there are more pujps, but that's not 100% either

PHMorgan: THis is why you need to be with momdog for AT LEAST the first 24 hours after whelping - to make sure eveyrone is doing OK, and to make sure all is well with Momdog. It's also important to take momdogs temperature 2x a day for the first week or so, to be sure there is no infection

bossanovabassets: The biggest problem with x-rays in basset hounds is that their rib cage is so large and dense one or two pups can hide up there. I do x-ray....but rely on what Ican feel during the actual whelping

PHMorgan: I usually sleep in teh room with her the first night

kaana: thank you

PHChristy: I am concerned with the safety risks of x rays and don't do them

PHMorgan: Nope, x-rays are not 100%, but they help, and they are MORE accurate than an ultrasound for NUMBERS

PHMorgan: Lots of folks are

PHChristy: I rely on sonagrams, even though they are not exact.

PHMorgan: I have done it for years and don't see a problem, but x-rays ARE radiation

PHChristy: less so than xrays

PHMorgan: I do both

bossanovabassets: I sleep on the floor next to the whelping box for the first 2 weeks....any sound or movement and I wake up. I don't want the mom to roll on a pup.

PHMorgan: I use a sonagram to confirm pregnancy, and x-ray later to get an idea of HOW MANY

bossanovabassets: Me too Morgan.

PHMorgan: My momdogs are VERY careful about squishing pups, but not all are

PHMorgan: AFter the first couple of days, you should have an idea of how good or careful a momdog you ahve, and be able to see how much supervision she will need

PHMorgan: I had one bitch who would only deliver pups if I left the room

bossanovabassets: I had a friend who just lost a puppy that way.

PHMorgan: I had to park in the living room and check on her every 15-30 minutes

PHMorgan: It's also VERY important to keep the momdog in a quiet area. NO dogs, no visitors, no peeking in by strangers for the first week AT LEAST, and usualy not for the first few weeks

PHMorgan: YOu want to reduce her stress so she can concentrate on being MOMDOG. YOu don't want her to panic or get upset and possibly harm the pups or anyone else

PHMorgan: My momdogs are EXTREMELY protective and dno't like human visitors for about 2 weeks. They don't like doggy visitors for about 3 weeks

PHMorgan: Again, whatever momdog wants is usually for the best

PHMorgan: Now, often momdog will be fussy about eating for a day or so....

bossanovabassets: We keep bleach water outside the front door for hands of anyone coming in the door.

PHMorgan: Give her WHATEVER SHE WANTS, preferably with a lot of liquid so that she will produce milk

PHMorgan: I usually make up a slurry of goat's milk, eggs, and karo syrup for the first day or so, and add kibble over time

PHMorgan: But some will refuse food the first day or so.... Entice her with anything she will eat, even if you have to hand-feed her

PHMorgan: I had one who would only eat ice cream the first 2 days

PHMorgan: :-)

kaana: My friend is a Norwich breeder, had 6 puppies and almost lost the bitch 2 days after due to eclampsia, anyone ever had this problem?

PHMorgan: I've never had it but I've seen it.

kaana: pretty scary

PHMorgan: That is one of the reasons I offer the goat's milk - I figure if she needs the calcium, there it is, if not, it's still good nutrition

PHChristy: !

PHMorgan: GA

kaana: I use goat milk ALWAYS

PHMorgan: By the way, we can open up this chat to general questions and yakking - my boring lecture is now over.... LOL

bossanovabassets: How much goat's milk do you offer? I had a bitch get diarhea afte giving it.

kaana: her vet recommended tums

PHChristy: I think eclampsia is pretty rare in larger breeds who are not being supplemented with calcium

PHMorgan: I give whatever she will eat

PHChristy: Dr. Hutch tells me that supplementing calcium before whelping will CAUSE eclampsia, not prevent it

PHChristy: It was not boring, btw, I found it very helpful!

kaana: that is true

PHMorgan: If she gets SOME diahrrea for a day or so until she will eat regular food, fine - it's still important that she is EATING

PHChristy: but I think in the smaller breeds it can occur regardless

Rueger: I had a bitch get eclampsia

bossanovabassets: When I was very young I had a chihuahua get eclampsia. Almost lost her and bottle fed the litter.

PHMorgan: But if you are having a problem, you can try dliuting the goat's milk by 1/2

kaana: I aslo add yogurt

PHMorgan: Many small breeds are very prone to eclampsia

kaana: why is that?

GAChesters: I give cottage cheese mixed with her food as soon as I know she's PG

PHMorgan: AFter whelping and in general, momdog should be calm. The pups should be QUIET, more or less, and mom should be lying placidly feeding and cleaning them

Rueger: I only had one and even with supplementation she still got it although her daughter never had a problem

Rueger: I use yogurt or cottage chesse

PHMorgan: IF she is anxious, fussing, panting or otherwise seems out of sorts, and you've tried various ways to comfort adn settle her, get her to the vet - something may be wrong

kaana: should the bitch with eclampsia be bred again??

PHChristy: I would try to pin down the cause of the eclampsia first

PHChristy: if it was caused by inappropriate supplementation.... then yes

kaana: could this be a hormonal prob?

PHMorgan: Unless your vet tells you to, DO NOT supplement your momdog with calcium

PHChristy: I'm thinking, though, that WhelpWise has done some work showing that calcium supplementation does NOT cause eclampsia, let me see if I can dig that up

VAL911K9: Christy I would be interested in that info

PHMorgan: OK - everyone - what is the MOST disgusting part of whelping??????

Rueger: I heard calcium supplemenatation can mess up thyroid

PHMorgan: I personally think it is watching momdog slurp up those nasty placentas!

PHChristy: OK... this is what Karen Copely of WhelpWise said when she was our guest: the research that showed calcium supplementation being bad and causing eclampsia was done on a very small group of dogs who were given in excess of 250,000 mgs of calcium a day for their entire pregnancy

VAL911K9: LOL- with mine it's all the mess in the whelping box my breed has a lot of fluid and blood

Rueger: morgan to me worse if giving mouth to mouth to a pup LOL

PHChristy: she also said: it is my opinion that increasing the bitch's calcium consumption the last seven days of pregnancy when puppies began to substantially put on bone is a good idea

Rueger: hey pal

PHMorgan: Yeah, that's pretty oogy, REuger

Palomino1: hi all

PHChristy: Hi Palomino! Welcome to Dog Breeding Chat! Our topic tonight is "Normal Whelping: An Overview"

VAL911K9: thanks Christy - I used to supplement then quit when all the info came out saying it was bad

PHMorgan: Christy - what are Karen Copley's qualifications?

PHChristy: Morgan.... let me get those also

PHChristy: She is the Veterinary Perinatal Specialties founder and owner, a high risk obstetrical nurse who co-owns two patents on methods to monitor uterine activity and fetal heart rates in non-human mammals, used by breeders in their homes

PHMorgan: Oh before we get further - topic for next week?????

PHMorgan: I have used the Whelpwise tools - they are pretty cool

PHMorgan: Gave me some valuable information

PHChristy: Morgan.... I have a few topics you tossed around last week

PHMorgan: Throw them out - mind is a sieve

PHChristy: Defining the Pick Puppy

PHChristy: Researching Pedigrees

PHChristy: Pat Hastings' Puppy Puzzle

PHMorgan: There ya go - let's vote... LOL

Rueger: I vote for pedigrees

PHMorgan: By the way, I'm fairly sure we just did pick puppy recently

PHChristy: ok, let's do pedigrees

PHChristy: I am not familiar enough with Puppy Puzzle and I was trying to get Pat Hastings for CHat Week

Rueger: ok I need to run off righ tnow

Rueger: see ya all next week

bossanovabassets: The best thing I think I can do is talk to alot of people about the dogs in the pedigree. It takes a long time to have a good knowledge base in a breed.

PHMorgan: Night REgu

PHChristy: night Rue!

PHChristy: ok, we'll keep thinking about topics

GAChesters: I gotta go too! See ya next week

PHChristy: general concensus seems to be we've done those topics too recently to do them again

PHMorgan: ANy more questions about simple, normal whelping?

PHChristy: Night GAC!

PHChristy: or we can do any dog breeding or dog health related discussion for the last few minutes!

PHMorgan: OOPS

PHChristy: Did you accidentally hit close room?

PHMorgan: I hate when I do that

PHChristy: ooopsie, LOL

PHMorgan: Sorry guys - my fault

Palomino1: ok, who booted me!?!

PHChristy: Pal, I was just going to say... yes, Holistic CHat is on Thursday nights at 9 PM Eastern Time

PHChristy: LOL, Morgan did that

PHMowgli: I knew it was you morgan LOL

PHMorgan: Plumping up cushions and handing around drinks

PHMorgan: Sorry -it was me, it was me

PHChristy: Morgan, you really need to learn to use your powers for good not evil

Palomino1: thanks Christy

PHMorgan: I need to learn not to "sneeze" on the keyboard, that is for sure

Palomino1: can I ask for some GLOWS from the room before I leave?

PHMowgli: sure pal

PHMorgan: Definitely, Pal

PHMorgan: WB, Kaana

PHChristy: ::::::::GLOWS TO PAL::::::::::

PHChristy: Hi again Fang and kaana!

PHFang: Hi all!

PHMowgli: glows pal

Palomino1: TeddyBear, our Pom mix was diagnosed with Hemangiosarcoma today, vet isn't optimistic, says maybe 2 months if we are lucky

kaana: I got lost

PHMowgli: hey fang

PHMorgan: OMG that stinks

PHMowgli: oh pal I am sorry

PHMorgan: Kaana - it was my fault... Hit the wrong thing

kaana: forgiven

PHMowgli: hey bossanova

PHChristy: welcome back bossa! Morgan accidentally threw everyone out

Palomino1: really stinks, this dog has had a lousy time, he was dx with Congestive heart failure last summer

PHChristy: we'll be switching over to Show Dog Chat ina few minutes

PHMorgan: Poor little guy

bossanovabassets: Ah, I thought it was just me...I kept getting kicked off.

PHChristy: Pal, definitely email me, OK?

Palomino1: he really needs some PH GLOW

PHMorgan: Nope, this time it was me

PHChristy: and come to Holistic Chat on Thursday if you can

Palomino1: I will Christy, thanks

PHMorgan: Christy has confined me to mhy crate for the duratino

bossanovabassets: What time is Holistic Chat?

PHMorgan: Well, Christy, since we have vetoed all our topics, how about a "not so simple" whelping?

Palomino1: thanks all, nite

PHChristy: Holistic is Thursday at 9 PM ET

PHChristy: right here in this room

PHChristy: Morgan, that sounds GREAT!

PHChristy: I love it

PHMorgan: Alrighty then! LOL

PHChristy: and I have one as a case study, LOL

PHMowgli: I have 3 christy LOL

PHChristy: well folks, it's time to turn the room over to PHMowgli and PHFang for Showdog Chat

PHMorgan: see ya'll next week

PHMowgli: nite morgan