More Resources Resource Center & Chat Transcripts Dog Breeders Chat Tuesdays 9-10 PM Eastern Time Get a free email reminder of our weekly dog breeders' chat, from DogHobbyist.com! Email Address: Showdog Chat Tuesdays 10-11 PM Eastern Time Dog Breeding Forum DogHobbyist.com DogHobbyist.com Dog Forums/Boards Dog Chats Dog Photo Gallery Subscribe to DogHobbyist News, the free email newsletter of DogHobbyist.com! Email Address:

PHMorgan: Welcome to Breeder Chat! Topic tonight is "Not so Simple Whelpings.” We will do a protocol chat tonight - everyone can chat in IMs and make comments by typing "!" and questions by typing "?" and I will call on you. After my exciting presentation, we will open up the floor for comments and discussion!

VAL911K9: Hi everyone

PHMorgan: The topic will begin shortly - want a few more folks to arrive if they can

PHChristy: how are you doing tonight, Val?

VAL911K9: then is there time for a quick breeder brag?

PHChristy: absolutely Val! go for it!

PHMorgan: Tell! Tell!

VAL911K9: Quest my 2 yr old French mastiff is now #3 in the top ten standings for UKC - this is my bred-by boy

PHMorgan: WOW

PHMorgan: That is super!

PHChristy: woo hoo congrats!

PHChristy: your bred by boy who is also the "star" of our dog breeding main page

VAL911K9: yeah it is always fun but is extra sweet when it's your own breeding

VAL911K9: I know Christy - you should see him now LOL

PHMorgan: It most certainly is!

PHChristy: actually we have not started our special topic yet so we can just do general chat about dog breeding until a few more folks arrive

PHChristy: VAL, you must be SO proud of him

PHChristy: he's really a spectacular boy and he's done SO much winning for you!

whpptwmn_nr: hello, I have never done this before, so bear with me

VAL911K9: thanks I am busting at the seams over him

whpptwmn_nr: actually I have a litter due anytime, never done that before either! Glad to be here!

PHChristy: whpptwmn, absolutely! Once we get started we'll have some special rules, but for now we are just chatting. Once we start our special topic, which tonight is "Not so Simple Whelpings," we'll ask that if you want to ask a question you type a ? or if you want to make a comment you type !, and then wait for us to call on you

PHChristy: but as I said for now we can chat freely :)

PHChristy: congrats on your upcoming litter, whpptwmn! when are they due?

VAL911K9: wh - are they whippets?

PHMorgan: OK - well those who show up later can simply read the transcript. I want us to have time for discussion, as I'm sure there will be lots

whpptwmn_nr: anytime, and am I* NERVOUS!!!

whpptwmn_nr: yes

PHChristy: ok, Morgan, let's get started then!

PHChristy: Welcome to our Special Chat on "Not So Simple Whelpings"

PHMorgan: First, there are LOTS of things that can go awry during whelping. If you've never whelped a litter, it's VERY important to have the following resources available - doing a whelping, especially a first whelping, without them, is foolish and could cost your bitch and/or the puppies her life.

Dogaroo: hi room

Dogaroo: oops, ty

PHMorgan: The first thing is a VET at hand. If your vet does NOT do after hours emergencies, find one who does, or know your emergency vet's number. Have it written down and at hand. Be SURE YOU HAVE THE RIGHT MONEY/CREDIT to visit there - they WILL NOT take you on pity.

PHMorgan: Second is a mentor either present or available for advice - preferably someone the bitch knows.

PHMorgan: Third is an education - it's a great idea to OBSERVE a whelping if you can, and to read as much information as possible about whelping beforehand to be prepared.

PHMorgan: You should have a kit ready, which we have discussed previously - check past transcripts for it!

Palomino1: I did get it, have been fighting with my vet, she really isn't keen on doing surgery but her partner says its possible

Palomino1: eeek! sorry

PHMorgan: So, let's review some of the problems you can run into and what you may or MAY NOT be able to do about them. Keep in mind *I AM NOT A VET* so my advice and information is given based on my experience as a breeder.

PHMorgan: First is uterine inertia

PHMorgan: That means the bitch either NEVER goes into labor, or she is in labor for a LOOONG time without producing a puppy

PHMorgan: If she's more than 2-3 days past her due date, get with your vet. He can do a progesterone test and see what is going on

PHMorgan: If she's been in the panting/digging stage of labor but no pushing for more than 6-8 hours, call the vet. Most probably he will tell you to wait some more, but you should keep him in the loop

PHMorgan: If Momdog has been pushing for more than 1 1/2 to 2 hours without producing a puppy, call the vet. He will likely want to either do a c-section (often called for) or give the bitch some oxytocin

PHMorgan: Let me take a minute to talk about oxytocin. Oxytocin is a drug that stimulates uterine contractions. It should NEVER be given without the advice of your vet. My vet sends home the whole bottle with me and correct dosage for the particular bitch due. Despite having whelped quite a few litters and being very conversant about whelping AND using oxytocin, I STILL call my vet each time before using it.

PHMorgan: Too much oxytocin can be very dangerous. There are instances where it can be EXTREMELY harmful to your bitch. Let's keep in mind the uterus is a muscle. If it's worn out or tired, no amount of drugs might help it to work. If a puppy is too large, stuck or there is a dead puppy in the uterus, giving oxytocin to stimulate uterine contractions might cause the uterus to rupture instead of pushing puppies along.

PHMorgan: So... Use caution. Oxytocin is usually best when combined with injectible calcium, another drug to be used ONLY under advisement from your vet.

bossanovabassets: ?

PHChristy: bossa, please go ahead!

PHMorgan: The next problem you might encounter is a puppy STUCK in the birth canal. Often the puppies move smoothly until they reach the end of the uterus, just before the pelvic bone. The pups must go UP AND OVER this bone to reach the outside....

PHMorgan: GA< Boss

bossanovabassets: I've never heard to combine it with injectible calcium....why?

bossanovabassets: that's injectible..

PHMorgan: I’m not sure on the answer to that, Bossa - my vet always gives both -0 the calcium at different intervals than the oxytocin. Christy is looking for an answer for us and will post it when she finds it. Good question!

PHMorgan: OK - so sometimes the pups will become stuck before the pelvic bone. Usually a human cannot reach any part of the pup at this point to help out - but sometimes a few more contractions will push the puppy "over the hump."

PHMorgan: If you KNOW a puppy is stuck there, and has been so for more than 15 minutes or so, call your vet. He might feel some help is needed.

whpptwmn_nr: ?

PHMorgan: Now, if the pup CLEARS the pelvic bone, you can SEE this because the vagina and vulva swells with the body of the pup

PHMorgan: At this point, usually the pup will slide out in a contraction or two. If this doesn't happen - if the "bulge" keeps coming and going with contractions, you might need to give a hand...

PHMorgan: GA - Whppt

whpptwmn_nr: HOW WOULD ONE KNOW IF A PUP IS STUCK THERE?

PHMorgan: Behind the pelvic bone?

whpptwmn_nr: yes

PHMorgan: Sometimes you can feel, from below, in front of the vulva, the hard body of the puppy in the canal right in front of the pelvis

PHMorgan: Christy has your answer Bossanova

PHMorgan: GA< Christy

PHChristy: Calcium is required to sensitize the cells to allow them to utilize oxytocin. In addition, It is not always possible to tell if a bitch who is having no contractions needs oxytocin or calcium, or both, so they give both.

PHMorgan: Thanks, Christy - look at that, WE ALL learned something today! ;-)

Maggiemay155: ?

PHMorgan: GA, Maggie

Maggiemay155: Is there a limit to how much oxy you can give?

PHChristy: "In bitches who fail to progress after appropriate physical exam and diagnostic tests: Oxytocin 3 - 20 Units IM and/or with calcium gluconate 10% (3 - 5 ml IV, given slowly) if low total or ionized serum Ca++ levels. May repeat oxytocin at 30 minute intervals. If no progress after 3 treatments, recommend cesarean section. (Johnston 1986)"

PHMorgan: You need to talk about that with your vet, Maggie - it depends ENTIRELY on what is going on

PHMorgan: I have given, on advice of my vet, oxytocin (small dose) in between each puppy for the last 3-4 pups

PHMorgan: You need to consult your vet based on each situation

PHChristy: I'm sorry, that quote was in response to the calcium question, NOT a recommendation of a therapy!

PHMorgan: OK -back to our poor stuck puppy!

PHMorgan: If you have a puppy stuck PAST the pelvic bone, there are a few things you can try.

PHMorgan: First, you can lubricate the area - K-Y jelly is probably your best bet

PHChristy: I agree completely with Morgan that you should never, ever give oxytocin without talking to your vet

PHMorgan: Second, you can massage the vulva internally

PHMorgan: This is best done with gloved fingers and SHORT NAILS - cut 'em if you must

PHMorgan: What you do is insert a finger against the OUTSIDE wall of the vulva and gentle stroke - this generally will bring on a contraction

PHMorgan: Sometimes this helps - this can be used to stimulate contractions between pups, and if a puppy is till behind the pelvic wall. It is sometimes called "Feathering"

PHMorgan: Cleanliness is important here - your bitch's tissues are very open to infection and you don’t want to germ her up! LOL

PHMorgan: If that fails, and pup is STILL stuck, you can try to pull. IF the puppy is HEAD first (it will feel like a LARGE hard ball) you want to try and get TWO fingers BEHIND the head. If the puppy is feet first, you want to try and get hold of the hips. It's not a good idea to pull on any feet singly. This must be done very carefully:::

PHMorgan: If you don't feel comfortable, don't DO IT

PHMorgan: What you need to do is WAIT until there is a contraction. DO NOT pull unless there is a contraction

PHMorgan: When the bitch contracts, pull FIRMLY and STEADILY DOWN towards the bitch's hocks - the vulva points in this direction and pulling backward isn't helpful

PHMorgan: Usually the pup will slide out

PHMorgan: Now - these are some of the most common problems with actually delivering puppies.

PHMorgan: We will discuss issues once the pups are delivered NEXT WEEK

PHMorgan: But for now, any questions or other issues that might come up we should discuss???

PHMorgan: Pertaining TO DELIVERY

Maggiemay155: ?

PHChristy: go ahead Maggiemay!

Maggiemay155: Does a bitch's water break before delivery

PHMorgan: GA< Maggie - we will dispense with our protocol unless it gets really crazy - let's try to respect one another here

PHMorgan: Often yes - there is a bag of fluids that breaks before delivery, and then there is a separate bag of fluids for EACH PUPPY

Maggiemay155: so it doesn't always break first signaling start time?

PHMorgan: Some bitches do not break these fluid filled sacs until the first puppy is delivered, but often it does. You want to note down the time that this happens, because your vet might need to know in case of a problem

whpptwmn_nr: When it breaks, how long should it be until you see a pup?

PHMorgan: It’s a good idea to note down EVERYTHING: 1) water breaking 2) hard contractions beginning 3) puppy in canal, puppy delivered, labor beginning again - each event should be recorded for your vet

PHMorgan: Should be within 2 hours

PHMorgan: *Hours

PHMorgan: It can be longer, but call your vet if it's been 2 hours and no puppy

MiniSch_nr: how do you tell there is a puppy in the canal?

PHMorgan: You might note down the time of all the contractions until the first pup is born

bossanovabassets: !

PHMorgan: Sometimes you can feel the puppy as a hard mass in front of the vulva, from the belly

PHMorgan: They generally arrive one at a time

Maggiemay155: what is your feelings on xrays?

PHChristy: go ahead bossa :)

bossanovabassets: In my last litter, the sacks broke when the pups were far up inside. We had to reach in and pull all 5 breech presentation puppies. Hard to do with very short fingers

PHMorgan: The uterus has 2 horns in which the pups lie - often pups are delivered one and then shortly another - from each horn, then a break

whpptwmn_nr: if its past the pelvic bone, should you be able to feel it above the vulva?

PHMorgan: It is normal for there to be a break between puppies, especially towards the end of a large litter

PHMorgan: I would say yes

PHMorgan: I am all for x-rays, personally - I like all the information I can get

MiniSch_nr: ?

PHChristy: breech presentation, as in, feet first, is normal in dogs

PHChristy: only a sideways presentation is dangerous in a puppy

PHChristy: ga Mini

PHMorgan: That makes for a tough delivery, without the fluid sacs to lubricate things. But I have also found about 40-50% of my pups are delivered feet first - it doesn't seem to be harder in MY Breed

MiniSch_nr: When do you normally x-ray? That is, on what day from ovulation.

PHMorgan: Sideways is not good....

PHChristy: sideways is bad, but head or feet first are both normal in dogs

PHMorgan: Mini - sometime in the last week - depends on my schedule

PHMorgan: Usually 3-4 days before the first due date

MiniSch_nr: ?

PHMorgan: The later the better

PHMorgan: GA< Min

PHChristy: I am one who does not xray due to the risks on the puppies, but those risks are considered to be minimal within one week of whelping

PHChristy: so if you absolutely HAVE TO do it, do it as late as possible

PHChristy: JMO

PHMorgan: I never x-ray before then - you can't see anything anyway since the bones of the pups are not fully calcified and don't show up on an x-ray

MiniSch_nr: I feel a little dumb about this question because it is too late if I made a mistake. I flew my bitch back from breeding as my carry on. I carried her through the x-ray. Should I have asked for them to strip search her instead?

bossanovabassets: !

PHMorgan: GA, Boss

PHMorgan: I don't think it should be a problem mini

PHMorgan: They probably would have insisted anyhow

PHMorgan: *Insisted. Man fingers are stupid tonight!

bossanovabassets: I have x-rayed at 45 days with fairly accurate results.

PHMorgan: I have x-rayed at 45 days and had a moosh of ghosts that didn’t tell me what I wanted to know

PHMorgan: It depends on the litter and the size and shape of the bitch

Maggiemay155: !

PHMorgan: GA< Maggie

PHMorgan: (you guys are so polite.... Handing around the ice cream:::)

Maggiemay155: I xrayed 1 week before due date. saw 6 skeletons and had 5 puppies?

bossanovabassets: Bassets are not easy to see with their heavy chests.

PHChristy: the x ray is not that precise, it's often off by 1

PHChristy: or more

PHMorgan: When you x-ray, you have to EITHER count skulls or spines - you cannot do some of one and some of the other - you can easily make a mistake that way

PHMorgan: Since the pups can curl up and twine around one another in there, it can be hard to tell whose skull goes with whose spine, so you can only count from either

PHMorgan: All my x-rays have been short, never over

Maggiemay155: !

PHChristy: ga Maggie

PHMorgan: Usually the VET will say, for example, 8 and I will say, well, I see two more, and he will say, nah, that's nothing and usually I am right.. LOL

PHMorgan: Mag go ahead

PHChristy: looks like Maggie was punted

PHMorgan: I can't stress enough how important it is to have a knowledgeable and AVAILABLE vet before whelping a litter

PHMorgan: Puppies LOVE to arrive at 3AM

PHChristy: on Sunday

PHChristy: on a holiday

PHMorgan: And many emergency vets do not consider whelping an imminent emergency -they will make your bitch wait until after the car-wreck, or other type of immediate problem

PHMorgan: Which can lose you puppies

PHMorgan: And frequently they use students, which is OK since they are supervised, but they often will not let you BE with your bitch, which can increase her stress

PHMorgan: MAKE SURE YOUR VET IS AVAILABLE

PHChristy: I was wondering what experiences folks have had with bitches who had primary uterine inertia, ie, they never go into labor at all.....

PHMorgan: I have had this

PHMorgan: C-section with 2 litters

PHMorgan: Both times the pups were ENORMOUS and she never got past the panting stage

VAL911K9: never had that problem even with singleton pups

PHChristy: I've had it happen once

PHMorgan: She survived the sections fine - altho she had some trouble with the anesthesia the second time

PHChristy: It's what made me so determined to always use ovulation timing, so I'd have a definite due date

PHMorgan: WE felt it was due to overall exhaustion - she'd been in "pre-labor" (panting and digging) for 24 hours

PHChristy: we weren't sure when the pups were truly due

PHChristy: and waited too long

dddlll_nr: ?

PHMorgan: GO DDD

PHChristy: dddlll, go ahead!

dddlll_nr: at what point do you make that determination?

PHMorgan: Your vet can do progesterone tests to see when your bitch is due.

PHChristy: dddlll, that was the exact problem I had... we weren't sure and waited too long

PHMorgan: Which determination?

dddlll_nr: how long is too long to wait?

PHChristy: and two of the three puppies were dead by the time we got in to the vet, even though we were still within the window of her last breeding

PHMorgan: It's a good idea to use ovulation timing when you BREED so you KNOW when she has ovulated

PHChristy: dddlll, you need to do ovulation timing when she comes in season and determine exactly when she ovulates. Then you can know the REAL due date

PHChristy: you cannot tell the due date by using breeding dates

PHMorgan: Then you know if she is more than 1-2 days late

dddlll_nr: too late for that!

bossanovabassets: ?

PHChristy: there is a window of potentially as much as TEN DAYS

PHChristy: bossa ga

PHMorgan: Keep in mind, HUMANS are pregnant for 9 months, dogs for 9 weeks

PHMorgan: A day or two is a BIG deal with a dog pregnancy

bossanovabassets: What do you use to determine ovulation?

PHMorgan: It’s comparable to a week of human pregnancy

PHChristy: dddlll, once you haven't done the ovulation timing, the next best thing would be to use something like WhelpWise

PHChristy: bossanova, progesterone testing, which is a blood test

PHMorgan: There is also testing for the LH Hormone, which is produced RIGHT BEFORE ovulation

PHMorgan: That is an even MORE accurate test, altho not as easy to find a vet to perform

PHMorgan: And it needs to be repeated often

PHMorgan: Usually every other day

PHMorgan: The change in levels is not a STEADY rise, but an abrupt one - so you need to test often so you don't miss it

whpptwmn_nr: ?

PHMorgan: This is true of progesterone AND of LH

PHMorgan: GA< Whppt

bossanovabassets: Yes, I have used progesterone testing, did you also do follow up progesterone testing after ovulation?

PHMorgan: I didn’t

bossanovabassets: I'm trying to remember what Dr. Hutch says about that....

whpptwmn_nr: is this an expensive test and can most vets perform it?

bossanovabassets: I know he had a reason for doing so afterwards to determine more accurately the whelping date.

whpptwmn_nr: LH test

PHChristy: any vet can do it, they just send it out to the lab.... that is the progesterone test I'm referring to

PHChristy: the LH test, I'm not sure of the cost....

PHMorgan: It can be expensive - but it depends on your vet

PHMowgli: for the LH test I had done at MSU was 60 dollars for LH and progesterone

PHChristy: The LH rise is easy to miss, though

PHChristy: if you miss it, you really don't know that you've missed it. Most breeders and repro vets rely on the progesterone test

bossanovabassets: ?

PHMorgan: GA, Bossanova

whpptwmn_nr: but that is only useful at breeding time, right?

bossanovabassets: How often have you had a vaginal smear (cornification) and a progesterone test not coincide.

PHChristy: I think that if you use a repro vet, the progesterone test series will not be too much, but a regular vet who doesn't do much repro work might charge a great deal to do the every other day blood draws and interpret the lab results.

PHMorgan: I haven't ever done both

pup22_nr: hey

PHChristy: I don't think ever, but I'm not really sure I've always done both

PHChristy: I think in general the vaginal smear is pretty unreliable

bossanovabassets: I have with a bitch who didn't ever get pregnant.......

MiniSch_nr: OK, I am trying to determine whelp date. I left my bitch to be bred - she wasn't in season yet, but the stud owner agreed to keep her until she was ready to be bred. She accommodated us by coming into season a couple of days after I left California. My bitch had progesterone that said it was time to breed - but neither she nor the male was interested and she was too tight for him to penetrate. They decided to AI - that was 7/25. They got an outside tie on 7/26 and 7/27 and also did an AI on 7/27. Finally on 7/28 they got a 10 min tie, 7/29 they got a 10 min tie and 7/30 they got a 20 min tie. They stopped breeding at that point .

PHMorgan: It really depends on whether the progesterone testing was accurate

PHMorgan: Some vets jump the gun

PHMorgan: Again - the rise is NOT predictable

PHChristy: when you say her progesterone said she was "ready to breed" what do you mean?

bossanovabassets: I would rely on when the male said it was time if he were an experienced male .....

PHMorgan: I would rely on the dog

whpptwmn_nr: ?

PHChristy: for me, what the progesterone test is for is more to tell me when she is ovulating, when she is "ready" might vary a great deal from that

PHChristy: because there is HUGE window for fresh semen, less for chilled, MUCH less for frozen

pup22_nr: ph

PHChristy: if you are doing natural breedings, your bitch might want to breed somewhat before or after she ovulates, but conception can still take place

PHMorgan: GA whppt

pup22_nr: dgd,

PHChristy: whpptwmn, please ga!

pup22_nr: ?

PHMorgan: OK folks - next week we will discuss what happens AFTER the pups "exit" momdog. Bring your question and we will run this chat just the same - a short presentation and then discussion and questions in between

PHChristy: pup, you can go ahead with your question about whelping ....

VAL911K9: thanks Morgan and Christy

MiniSch_nr: So you would count from the first inside tie?

whpptwmn_nr: The male was experienced. My bitch was interested, he wasn't for 3 days. We tried in the afternoon, not interested. But 8 hours later, he was. Do you think he knew she was ready? Do you think I can plan on that first breeding taking?

MiniSch_nr: Because that is when she was ready.

PHChristy: Mini, no, you can never tell from the date of a breeding

PHChristy: it's almost meaningless info

PHChristy: breeding date can only get you within about ten days

pup22_nr: ?????????????????/

PHMorgan: You are most welcome, Val

PHMowgli: am I here???

PHChristy: it's a great myth that we can time our due dates from breeding dates

Maggiemay155: ?

PHMowgli: hello anyone here???

PHChristy: if no one has anything to add to that... I will turn the room over to PHMowgli for Showdog Chat! Thanks, Morgan, for a great chat! Thanks everyone for coming, we'll see you next week!

MiniSch_nr: I plan to do the pregnancy test because it worked well with my last breeding (not this bitch). I think I will plan it 30 days from the last inside tie.

PHMorgan: Wow it got really quiet

PHMorgan: HELOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

PHMorgan: rats

PHMorgan: Alrighty then!

PHMorgan: We’re BA-ACK

PHMorgan: LOL

PHMorgan: OK - I think it is time for ShowDog Chat!

PHMorgan: See ya'll next week!