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Transcript: Dog Breeding Chat Tuesday, August 30, 2005: Multi-sired Litters PHChristy: Welcome to Dog Breeding Chat! PHChristy: Our topic tonight is Multi-sired litters. PHChristy: I don't see my co-host online, I hope she makes it as this is her topic, LOL ode2adream: lol RuffersRule: hee hee ode2adream: very intresting topic:) Clicker59: LOL PHChristy: Hi there Maceys Mom! Welcome to Dog Breeding Chat! Our topic tonight is Multi-sired litters. RuffersRule: Hi Maceys Maceys_Mom: Hey everyone PHChristy: ode2, yes, I admit to being fascinated by it! AvalonBorzoi: just had one RuffersRule: Can u explain te topic Christy? PHChristy: Ruffers, the AKC recently began to allow the registration of litters with multiple sires PHChristy: you breed your bitch to more than one stud ode2adream: Some people feel it's wrong, others love the idea. So it can be a hot topic. *lol* RuffersRule: oic PHChristy: and then you do DNA testing on the puppies to determine which dog sired which puppy, and register them accordingly PHChristy: ode2, I honestly don't know why some people object PHChristy: to me it seems to be a terrific way to preserve genetic diversity RuffersRule: ahhhh ode2adream: No kidding. AvalonBorzoi: they first allowed it as of Sept 1, 2000 PHChristy: which I view as one of the major problems in purebred dogs today AvalonBorzoi: and its still a hot topic :) Maceys_Mom: Sometimes people are just scared of change though!! anything 'new' has got to be bad in their opinion ode2adream: I find it usful because you don't have to put your bitch through various litters PHChristy: Hi EClat! Welcome to Dog Breeding Chat! Our topic tonight is Multi-sired litters. PHChristy: ode2, yes, another good point EClatSPs: Hello Everyone! PHChristy: hey berta! Welcome to Dog Breeding Chat! Our topic tonight is Multi-sired litters. berta: hey ode2adream: And VERY good for the last litter from a bitch, but you can't decide on a single stud:P PHChristy: Especially in a breed like mine and Avalon's where large litters are common AvalonBorzoi: I do wish they would get over that $200 admin fee;) RuffersRule: Hi Berta and EClat PHChristy: LOL Avalon Clicker59: Who Christie Morgan or Mowgli? EClatSPs: Hi Ruffers. berta: people are copping out by doing this though ode2adream: Yeah..that's a bit steep, but hopefully as it gets more common the price will go down. PHChristy: Clicker, Morgan PHChristy: berta, how so? Clicker59: Nope she is off Christie AvalonBorzoi: I don't know that it will ever be very common since there is really no way to insure you'll get puppies sired by both the males :) PHChristy: one thing I've heard, and still don't have a satisfactory answer for as to whether it's true or not, is that most litters turn out to have only one sire, even if more than one was used PHChristy: Avalon, exactly AvalonBorzoi: they do berta: rather than researching they are using big name studs and hoping for the best ... after all they got two shots. Clicker59: I hope it isn't due to Harricane Katrinia? PHChristy: Clicker, yeah, but she should be here. She was on earlier. PHChristy: berta, true, but they can do that with one also
PHChristy: and do
AvalonBorzoi: I think using big name or big winner studs extends way beyond multi sired litters
PHChristy: Clicker, I don't think so, she's not in the south
Clicker59: I hope she is ok
RuffersRule: that was a wicked Hurrican
PHChristy: Avalon, exactly
ode2adream: Yeah...but sometimes with one sire you don't get the results you want.
Clicker59: Good Christie
berta: don't mention Katrina she flattened out host hotel
ode2adream: nothing is guarenteed:P
AvalonBorzoi: true
RuffersRule: Oh no Berta
berta: the president casino is now sitting on it
PHChristy: Hello Schokolade! Welcome to Dog Breeding Chat! Our topic tonight is Multi-sired litters.
Clicker59: Hi Scholeolade
RuffersRule: Hi Schokolade
PHChristy: berta, NO! wehre was it supposed to be?
RuffersRule: Hi Kool
schokolade: Hi everyone!
Clicker59: Hi Kool
PHChristy: Hi there koolkat! Welcome to Dog Breeding Chat! Our topic tonight is Multi-sired litters.
berta: Biloxi
EClatSPs: Hi, Scho.
AvalonBorzoi: we tried a multisired breeding as soon as it was allowed and got only one sire
EClatSPs: Hey kool
berta: end of Oct
koolkat_nr: meow
ode2adream: was it natural breeding or AI?
RuffersRule: Hi Annandel
Clicker59: Hi Mow
EClatSPs: And you too anna,
annandael: hi hi
ode2adream: Jae!
PHMowgli: Howdy folks
PHChristy: Welcome to Dog Breeding Chat! Our topic tonight is Multi-sired litters.
AvalonBorzoi: another friend of mine with Borzoi has tried several ( around 10 times for multi sired but has had one sire and then had two accidental breedings of 2 and both were multi sired
Maceys_Mom: does anything effect which sire usually ends up successful?? like does the bigger one usually end up as the dad? or the first one used.. or is it always random
PHChristy: And hi there annandael! Welcome to Dog Breeding Chat! Our topic tonight is Multi-sired litters.
koolkat_nr: hey guys/girls
AvalonBorzoi: hers were all natural
EClatSPs: Hey, Mow! You made it.
Clicker59: [img id=em-5]
AvalonBorzoi: as were the two multisired we've done
PHChristy: ROFL Avalon, that makes sense
PHMowgli: one topic I hope I never deal with Christy LOL
ode2adream: I'd think with AI better results would be had as you could mix it?
AvalonBorzoi: another Borzoi breeder did theirs with mixed sperm and an IU implant
koolkat_nr: sooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
PHChristy: although Mow we're talking about doing it deliberately
Clicker59: Mow which is Mow?
PHChristy: and I was saying that it helps maintain genetic diversity
RuffersRule: Hi Mow!!
PHChristy: which I'm in favor of
PHMowgli: yeah but I do not want to deal with all the AKC paperwork
EClatSPs: I've only personally seen one multi-sired litter. It was definately not intentional...bitch was stray at the time. There were at least four sires with ten puppies.
AvalonBorzoi: I think in dogs with normal sperm counts that it is the first one that usually sires the litter or most of them
berta: I just don't think using a "shotgun" approach should replace careful study and selection
koolkat_nr: does some one have a son named chase if u have one
AvalonBorzoi: but in our first case we bred to one dog first then 2 hours later to another dog
Maceys_Mom: My girl is pregnant right now for her first time (and my first time too) and I'm having multi sire scares... she got out and visited a neighbours dog after the one she was to be bred with
PHChristy: berta, but what's the difference between doing one litter with two sires and two litters with two sires?
Clicker59: Christie you know I don't Breed so I don't understand this
AvalonBorzoi: and the second dog sired all hte pups but we knew the first dog had a low count
PHChristy: I don't believe that multi-sired litters is necessarily a shotgun approach
PHChristy: Macey's, well, THAT is a horse of a different color!
AvalonBorzoi: you need to DNA test the two purebreds
Clicker59: What is Multi-sired Litters
AvalonBorzoi: and send that in
koolkat_nr: cool
RuffersRule: I am write with U Clicker !!
Maceys_Mom: I guess I just have to wait and see... but hope for the best
RuffersRule: I don't get it either Clicker
RuffersRule: just leaning as I go
PHMowgli: Clicker when more than one male is dad to pups in a litter
berta: Nothing "IF" they do their research First but this makes it easy for those that don't . GIves them what they feel is a better shot at a top dog
AvalonBorzoi: then you can DNA puppies and make sure what you register is purebred
Clicker59: I gotcha now Mow
koolkat_nr: i love the pug r.r
PHChristy: I remember many years ago, before this was accepted by AKC, when someone I new had his bitch bred by his two dogs, who were unfortunately father and son - he was never able to determine who sired the pups. At that time, if he had been able to determine that one dog had sired all the pu ps, as long as it was the same dog for all, he could have registered the litter with the DNA evidence
AvalonBorzoi: I don't think multisired litters are easier at all
PHChristy: but since they were so closely related, they couldn't pin it down
EClatSPs: Multi sired litters are when two (or more) studs are used on a bitch during one season with hopes of having puppies sired by different ones.
AvalonBorzoi: they are way more expensive with the DNA costs and registration costs
RuffersRule: ty had to change cuz berta and I had the same Icon and it was getting confusing hee hee
koolkat_nr: who is under 20 here
AvalonBorzoi: My litter of 7 puppies between DNA and registration only is almost $700
PHMowgli: Well now that leaves out all my boys then Christy they are either father son or brothers LOL
Clicker59: Mow LOL
ode2adream: lol
koolkat_nr: hi
AvalonBorzoi: The multisired litter we just had was sired by a father and his son
Clicker59: Hi Valk
RuffersRule: Hi Valk
PHChristy: LOL Mow, I think they can figure it out now, the technology has improved
PHChristy: this was a LONG time ago
PHMowgli: hey Val
Valkyrie: Evenin'
berta: a Sammie breeder in Ohio had two littermates breed the same underaged bitch and the first test couldn't determine she had pay for addtional testing
PHChristy: maybe, 15 years ago
AvalonBorzoi: and we got DNA exclusions on all 7 puppies with the standard 13 marker test that AKC uses
EClatSPs: I don't think the DNA is sophisticated enough to differentiate between father/son and brothers is it?
koolkat_nr: WHO IS UNDER 20!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1
PHMowgli: right berta that is what I am hearing
AvalonBorzoi: yes it is
Clicker59: Oh No
PHChristy: EClat, I think it is now
AvalonBorzoi: there has been no case where the DNA testing cannot determine the sire to date
PHChristy: Avalon ... you mean since 2000?
AvalonBorzoi: if the $35 one does not work for one or two pups or whatever then the sires, dam and the pups you cannot exclude have additional markers done for $20 per dog
PHChristy: Because this was definitely inconclusive, they couldn't tell
AvalonBorzoi: yes since 2000
AvalonBorzoi: that is on the AKC website
EClatSPs: Cool! Didn't know that!
AvalonBorzoi: sometimes the FIRST test cannot tell but they can test additional markers
PHChristy: I'm thinking... no way was this 15 years ago, but more than 10
PHChristy: I'm getting old, it's all a blur
RuffersRule: can I ask a silly ?
PHChristy: Ruffers, sure!
AvalonBorzoi: and by doing that they have never had a case they couldn't register correctly
Clicker59: Kool wB
AvalonBorzoi: They have only allowed it for 5 years
koolkat_nr: huh
AvalonBorzoi: althought the technology has been around for a lot longer of course
RuffersRule: OK if they can DNA dogs is it like DNA Humans
PHChristy: Avalon, this was the test where they would register the pups if they all had the same sire
RuffersRule: IE the Test I mean
PHMowgli: yes Ruff
PHChristy: but if it turned out there were multiple sires, no
PHMowgli: same principle
koolkat_nr: im only 10!!! i dont think im fit in with adults[img id=em-0]
koolkat_nr: bye
Clicker59: Kool Bye
RuffersRule: bye kool
AvalonBorzoi: sorry I didn't really check into DNA rules until they started the stufff in 200 for multi sired :^)
PHChristy: I am totally in favor of multiple sire litters, I think in this modern era of pet overpopulation and the loss of genetic diversity, it's really a positive thing
AvalonBorzoi: I do know that since 2000 they have been able to prove one way or the other even if it did take additional markers
PHChristy: I agree with Berta there is no excuse for lazy research, but the people who do that, do it with single sired litters too
PHChristy: Avalon, yes, that's what I've been told as well ...
PHChristy: even if the multi sires are littermates
AvalonBorzoi: It requires 2 exclusions on marker sites per puppy of a sire before they will say that dog cannot be the sire of the puppy
PHChristy: Avalon, do you know anything about Silken WIndhounds?
AvalonBorzoi: yes even littermates , father son etc
AvalonBorzoi: yes have owned 2 silkens
AvalonBorzoi: they are all DNA'd
EClatSPs: I have a love/hate feeling about the stud research.
PHChristy: we have a regular in this chat who isn't here at the moment, she breeds them, and she just did a multi sired silken litter
ode2adream: I am for it. However, I would only likly do it if I had a bitch that was only going to have one more litter and there was 2 -awesome- studs and I couldn't pick between them:P
PHChristy: I was VERY impressed with the completeness of the DNA banking they are doing in their dogs
Clicker59: Christie cool
PHChristy: EClat, yes, I k now what you mean
PHMowgli: ode I am with you
AvalonBorzoi: yeah I don't see why they don't use it more often sinc ethey all have to be DNA'd in that breed to be bred :)
PHChristy: I've been interested in Silkens for my old age
PHChristy: something LIKE a deerhound or Borzoi but smaller
Clicker59: What are Sukens
AvalonBorzoi: they are charming dogs
AvalonBorzoi: I judged their Silkenfest last year
Clicker59: ?
PHChristy: Clicker, they are like small Borzois
AvalonBorzoi: nice people
AvalonBorzoi: nice dogs
PHChristy: Avalon, I'm going to Boofest in October
Clicker59: OL Christie
Valkyrie: I was just looking at the Silkens to see if I won the DNA contest.
Clicker59: OK I Mean
Valkyrie: I didn't. :-(
berta: Ghosts....... boofest?
EClatSPs: What's the DNA contest?
Clicker59: Is Boofest like a halloween Party for your dogs Christie?
PHMowgli: eclat good question
RuffersRule: [url href=http://www.e-michael.jp/gallery.htm]http://www.e-michael.jp/gallery.htm[/url]
AvalonBorzoi: no Silkenfest in Austin TX
PHChristy: Clicker, no, it's a Silken Windhound specialty show and gathering
RuffersRule: ok hubby just sent this site cute doggies
AvalonBorzoi: I'd like to go to a Boofest
AvalonBorzoi: too far West though
Valkyrie: The DNA contest was put on by a Silken breeder where you could guess who the sires were.
PHChristy: Avalon, I'm looking forward to it
AvalonBorzoi: I think they are great retirement dogs :)
PHChristy: Valkyrie is thinking of coming down also
PHChristy: LOL Avalon, my thought exactly!
Valkyrie: I'm head over heels for silkens.
AvalonBorzoi: smaller crates;)
PHChristy: I confess, I've ruined my back hoisting injured deerhounds
PHChristy: it's starting to get me down
AvalonBorzoi: I've ruined my back hoisting Borzoi crates and expens
schokolade: Oh, this is an interesting discussion. However, the sun'll set soon and and dogs need a training session.
PHChristy: when Raven had her amputation and needed help, I kept thinking... do I NEED to be breeding dogs who weigh over a hundred pounds?
AvalonBorzoi: oh man
PHMowgli: less food too LOL
PHChristy: schokolade, it was great to see you!
ode2adream: lol
AvalonBorzoi: yes less food
EClatSPs: Have fun, scho!
schokolade: Will this be on transcript?
Clicker59: Those puppy pics are cute
PHChristy: schok, yes, I'll do this one
PHChristy: I haven't done the last couple becasue we didn't stick on topic too well
Clicker59: Chrstie good
schokolade: Thank you. Bye everyone!
Clicker59: Christie I eman
RuffersRule: bye schok
RuffersRule: there are some kittys on the site I posted too but almost all dogs
PHMowgli: cute pics ruff I love the shelties of course LOL
Clicker59: Mow AAAAAAAAAWWWWWWWW
RuffersRule: hubby just found it good hubby *clicks* clicker throws him a treat hee hee
PHMowgli: ok so if we want a litter from say 3 sires what do you think s the easiest way to acheive this?
RuffersRule: Hi CB
Clicker59: Rule LOL
PHChristy: if possible, and if the bitch is OK with it, natural breedings
Valkyrie: Are more than 2 sires often used?
PHChristy: I typically can't find ONE stud let alone two or three, however
ode2adream: lol
PHChristy: so my guess is most will end up doing natural cover with one dog, and the other one or two by AI
PHMowgli: I agree Christy or the studs I do like and find don't seem to give me puppies
PHChristy: Avalon or Valkyrie, do you know if the silken breeder did AIs for her three-sired litter?
PHChristy: Val, I don't think so
PHChristy: I think most are using two
EClatSPs: I'm with you, Christy. I've been researching for a possible next stud and every time I find something I initially think I like, some thing always seems to rule him out.
annandael: <---is talking to her Basenji girl's breeder
PHMowgli: of course I am blaming it on studs as they are not mine LOL
Valkyrie: I'm not sure.
ode2adream: rofl
PHChristy: LOL Mowgli, it's ALWAYS the stud's fault unless, you know, it's YOUR STUD
PHChristy: then it's that dang bitch
PHMowgli: right Christy
ode2adream: rofl
PHChristy: annaneael, what are you talking to your breeder about? :)
PHChristy: EClat, this brings up a good topic
PHChristy: which we can maybe discuss in the future
Clicker59: LOL speaking of Clickers I just found mne behind my moniter Washcloth & all LOL
annandael: About my girl's last show
PHMowgli: however my girls are really starting to act like Mom's maybe if I try again I can get a puppy out of one of them LOL
PHChristy: I've noticed a lot of us "fault breed"... we rule out studs based on their faults, rather than evaluating them overall
PHChristy: we are looking for reasons to rule studs out
PHChristy: Avalon, welcome back!
AvalonBorzoi: temperament
PHMowgli: I virtue breed
AvalonBorzoi: got booted
Clicker59: Mow LOL
AvalonBorzoi: love dial up
EClatSPs: The biggest thing for me is the health testing (usually lack thereof...)
PHChristy: Avalon, did you happen to know if that Silken breeding with three studs was AI or natural or both?
PHMowgli: I look for specific virtues and rule out a dog if he does not have it
AvalonBorzoi: natural
AvalonBorzoi: I was told
Clicker59: AVAL me too I am glad we droped that
PHChristy: Avalon, thanks!
PHChristy: She was going to try to come tonight
ode2adream: I also think it depends what your looking to fix in your line too
PHMowgli: exactly ode
PHChristy: ode2, oh yes, sometimes we ARE in fact looking to fix faults
Clicker59: Who Christie
PHChristy: but it's like fault judging
PHChristy: you can lose the best dog in the ring that way
ode2adream: yep
PHChristy: by focusing on the trees and missing the forest
AvalonBorzoi: with dogs that weigh as much as Borzoi they have to have a good temperament ie. don't consider biting humans an option
PHChristy: on the other hand, breeding is an art
AvalonBorzoi: then they need to be health
annandael: no, it's a science now
AvalonBorzoi: healthy
Clicker59: Christie see why I don't show?
PHMowgli: you sure can Christy and when we look at just heads or rears and not the whole dog we miss a lot of good tuff
PHMowgli: stuff*
PHChristy: Avalon, this is why I love the deerhounds and 'zois, there are of course exceptions .... but generally, temperaments are super
AvalonBorzoi: then they need to possess the attributes for their original function not the show ring
PHChristy: Clicker :)
PHChristy: anandael ... nah. Nevah happen.
PHChristy: Hi SpringA! LTNS! Welcome to Dog Breeding Chat! Our topic tonight is Multi-sired litters.
RuffersRule: She why I want a Mixed doggie hee hee
PHMowgli: hey springa
annandael: yes..definately a science...health testing...color genetics
SpringA_nr: Hello Everyone!
EClatSPs: I've also been really focusing on what the dogs have produced and look at what they are out of.
berta: but look at Labs now........ they used to be known as sweet dogs and now you have to watch your fingers
RuffersRule: *see
PHChristy: annandael, sure, but things like type and temperament are SO subjective
Clicker59: Christioe Mow gave me a Agility show Lessons last night LOL
PHMowgli: yeah berta labs are getting awful
PHChristy: there will always be elements of art as well as science in dog breeding
AvalonBorzoi: Labs were never actually bred to be nice pleasant housedogs or family dogs
PHChristy: even clones aren't identical
AvalonBorzoi: they are a high energy working sporting dog
AvalonBorzoi: show labs don't even resemble the working dogs
AvalonBorzoi: but I haven't seen bad temperaments in either personally
annandael: temperment is something that we the breeder's are responsible for
annandael: socialization
RuffersRule: Clones are just wrong sorry there are lots of pet that need homes and u can't clone personality
EClatSPs: They are usually so fat they can't even walk right.
AvalonBorzoi: anybreed bred as much as labs and goldens though is certainly going to end up with bad apples
berta: They were bred to sit quietly in a boat or on shore until asked to work that is not a high energy dog
AvalonBorzoi: Cloning would be no different than breeding in my book
berta: a Border collie is a high energy dog
AvalonBorzoi: a dog expected to jump in cold water all day and retrieve ducks is a high energy dog to me
Clicker59: Avak so true but there is a AOL member that has 3 labs & she tought me about labs when she was a Chat host for AOL LOL
PHChristy: LOL EClat, for a minute I thought you meant CLONES, not show labs, and I was like... huh? Clones are fat?
berta: that is work ethic not an energy component
Clicker59: & I met them & they love me
PHChristy: sighthound people have a bizarre idea of "high energy" dogs
EClatSPs:
AvalonBorzoi: The sitting quietly isn't breeding its training :)
PHChristy: our dogs are 40 MPH couch potatos
Clicker59: Christie LOL
PHMowgli: my dogs are 35 mph constant movers
AvalonBorzoi: I don't think its work ethic I think its conformation which is bred for
berta: not really ..... a border collie could do it it would be having spasms
RuffersRule: But ppl are cloing to get them to look like a past pet
berta: jumping in cold water is conformation???
AvalonBorzoi: hell if I could clone some of my dogs I would
Clicker59: & my Basset growls & then Rolls off the bed LOL
PHChristy: a friend of mine with flat coated retrievers who brings them to visit a lot says that I have no idea what REAL dogs are like
Clicker59: But she is fine
AvalonBorzoi: the ability and conformation for jumping into cold water swimming out long distances and retrieving ducks all day is conformation
PHChristy: mine are either curled up napping on the sofa or runnign so fast nothing can catch them, nothing in beteween
AvalonBorzoi: otherwise they would not need a standard
PHChristy: hers bounce off the walls all day long and never sit still
AvalonBorzoi: muscle, body length to height ration etc
AvalonBorzoi: coat
AvalonBorzoi: all of that is conformation not work ethic
AvalonBorzoi: from my point of view anyway
Clicker59: Christie that sounds like Duchie if somebody leaves the door open
EClatSPs: But the willingness to do it *is* work ethic.
AvalonBorzoi: Sighthounds going out and galloping 35 plus miles an hour is conformation too
AvalonBorzoi: no dog knows what to do without training
Clicker59: BRB
berta: my Samoyed used to swim in cold water for hours on end and she wasn't a Lab you're confusing attributes with conformation
AvalonBorzoi: and they are an eminently trainable breed
AvalonBorzoi: no I'm not confusing attributes with conformation
Clicker59: Avel so true
EClatSPs: The ability is directly related to structure, but the willingness is related to work ethic.
PHMowgli: avalon I disagree I tink it is breed instanct as well as work ethic and conformantion
AvalonBorzoi: a dogs coat, muscling, body shape etc is conformation
PHChristy: Avalon, you think dogs don't know what to do without training? Sighthounds are BARELY trained at all, an awful lot of "bred in the bone" going on with our dogs
PHMowgli: you need conformation to be able to do the work, you need work ethic to want to do work and you need breed instinct to know how to perform the job
AvalonBorzoi: I don't think they know to sit quietly in the boat
Valkyrie: Conformation: The body form or physical traits of an animal or parts of the animal.
EClatSPs: Great way to put it, Mow!
AvalonBorzoi: ordinarily they would be off like a shot
AvalonBorzoi: to retrieve
berta: Of course it's instinct if you ever worked in a bird field with 2 mon pups ;you wouldn't have a doubt about instinct
AvalonBorzoi: I have NO doubts about instinct
Clicker59: I think I sometimes work Dutchie to hard on her heels at times
AvalonBorzoi: without instinct they are pretty useless animals
Valkyrie: I used to shoe race horses...conformation *enables* the animal to do their job.
Valkyrie: Without proper conformation they will breakdown
Valkyrie: and will be unable to perform.
PHMowgli: but without heart and willingness they will try to win Val
AvalonBorzoi: people breed for traits in animals
Valkyrie: I'm pretty sure that applies to dogs.
PHMowgli: not*
Valkyrie: But that's not conformation.
AvalonBorzoi: conformation traits ARE traits
Valkyrie: I've seen horses with lots of heart, but lacked the conformation to win.
PHMowgli: nope like I said it is a combo
Clicker59: But I didn't to day because I wasn't feeling well because of a leg injurie I got over the weekend
EClatSPs: It takes structure, heath, temperament, and work ethic all in combination in order for a dog to excell at a job.
AvalonBorzoi: you breed for a combination of traits to enable a dog to do what you want it to do
PHChristy: dogs with poor structure can still want to run ... and can overcome a lot of faulty conformation with heart and drive, but they will just break down
AvalonBorzoi: sure it does
AvalonBorzoi: I never said it doesn't
PHChristy: that doesn't usually harm them in things like lure coursing, but in real hunting it would kill them
Clicker59: But My injury isn't serious
PHChristy: Avalon, that was in response to Valkyrie
AvalonBorzoi: yes
RuffersRule: Oh are u ok Clicker?
Valkyrie: So the same as the race horses. :-)
AvalonBorzoi: and some can get some pretty unfortunate injuries lure coursing when they are put together poorly
PHChristy: Val, yes, but we don't push our dogs as hard in lure coursing as in horseracing
PHChristy: Avalon, wihtout a doubt
PHMowgli: but a dog with excellent conformation but no work ethic or breed instinct is not good either a BC can be structurally correct and win in a show ring time and again but not be able to herd
Valkyrie: WIthout a doubt.
PHChristy: lure coursing is a test, just not as much of a test as hunting
Valkyrie: LOL
AvalonBorzoi: that's true without guts and instinct the dog has a serious fault
EClatSPs: Same with agility. Dogs can break down doing agility with poor structure or being pushed to hard too soon.
Clicker59: Rue yes I took a deep step at the Agulity Show over the weekend because I wasn't paying any attention I had trouble with pain management
Clicker59: But I am ok now
Clicker59: Sorry Christie
AvalonBorzoi: I'm waiting to see a new breed bred specifically for agility :)
PHMowgli: but avalon that is not a fault it is something we need to breed for but often it is not even mentioned in breed standards
Valkyrie: I think I confused myself. LOL
EClatSPs: Breed standards can't describe temperament.
Clicker59: Val LOL
AvalonBorzoi: most breed standards say deviations from the standard should be faulted to the extent that they affect the dogs original purpose
RuffersRule: ok whew
EClatSPs: That's why I like to see other titles that *do* show what the temperament is like along with it.
PHMowgli: Eclat but they try to LOL
AvalonBorzoi: GSD standard does describe temperament
AvalonBorzoi: and faults shy dogs
Clicker59: LOL
AvalonBorzoi: or aggressive ones
PHMowgli: Avalon where in a conformation show do you see a BC judged on sheep?
EClatSPs: But that can't truly be judged in the breed ring.
SpringA_nr: there are many breed standards which do effectively describe the correct temperament of its given breed
AvalonBorzoi: where in a conformation show do you see sighthounds judged on hare?
PHChristy: Hi there msjspann!
AvalonBorzoi: conformation shows SUCK
msjspann: Hi PHCristy
Clicker59: Hi Spring & MSJ
PHChristy: Welcome to Dog Breeding Chat! Our topic is multi-sired litters!
msjspann: Hi Clicker59
Valkyrie: why?
PHChristy: although at the moment we seem to be discussing other elements of breeding
EClatSPs: I think they have their place, but need to be put in conjunction with other things.
PHMowgli: exactly avalon for proper judging of future of breed they do a poor job
PHChristy: Hare ... not the prey of a deerhound.
berta: sorry.......... . hiding in corner
PHChristy: I believe that it's wrong that a judge can judge a breed without so much as EVER having even viewed a performance event for that breed
PHMowgli: Eclat but I think too much emphaisis is placed on a CH at beginning of name and not enough on post titles
EClatSPs: I agree.
AvalonBorzoi: no hare are not Deerhound prey :)
EClatSPs: I see that very often in my breed.
SpringA_nr: In my opinion and in my breed specifically a conformation judge would learn little to nothing watching them in the field
AvalonBorzoi: but they would beat trotting around a 40 foot square heh :)
PHChristy: Spring, how come?
PHChristy: that seems counter intuitive to me
SpringA_nr: most field dog breeders to not adhere to the standard and if you ask them they breed strictly for performance
EClatSPs: But if the dogs in the breed ring can't do the job, how can they truly be correct?
PHMowgli: for shelties if they watch agility and obedience I think they get more from that than they do in conformation
berta: oh we just had a GOOD discussion of this on our breed list...... one guy basically said that a bitch shouldn't be bred if she isn't finished. I posted that oops I was sorry he was so disappointed in his bloodlines as his Huggie was a grandson of my Banshee..... and his dam had only one point
SpringA_nr: you see so many bad fronts, cow hocked rears high ear sets wide shoulders, etc on field dogs you can't compare them to our show breds
PHMowgli: he he Berta way to go
PHChristy: Spring, but if we had had that rule all along, would the split in Springers have ever become so pronounced as it is?
PHMowgli: no way christy
AvalonBorzoi: do the show breds do better in the field than the field dogs?
PHChristy: EClat, I tend to feel that way... I would be devastated to see my breed spllit like that
PHChristy: Hi again Clicker!
SpringA_nr: yes because it is human nature to specialize your stock at what you want them to do
EClatSPs: My bitch isn't finished AKC, but I have had several offers for my pick bitch from some very respectable people in my breed in addition to her already excelling in matches .
berta: no way Avalon
PHChristy: but we have no split at all in deerhounds
AvalonBorzoi: there isn't really one in Borzoi
PHChristy: Spring... but if the standard doesn't lead to better performance, then it's just a beauty pageant
PHMowgli: if the field bred are better hunters maybe they have the better dogs faults and all
PHChristy: Avalon, seen any Pickle Hill dogs lately?
AvalonBorzoi: that's what I think
AvalonBorzoi: yes I have
AvalonBorzoi: but she doesn't compete in anything with them at this point
AvalonBorzoi: not for years
PHChristy: but it's true, there is not a split in 'zois comparable to the sporting breeds
berta: The Brits aren't as "split" as breed like Eng Setters but they are starting
EClatSPs: We also have no split in standard poodles.
PHChristy: Avalon, well ... fair enough
SpringA_nr: The show breds are capable field dogs in my opinion, but they do not have the bird drive like the field breds do
AvalonBorzoi: so I can't say they are specialized by anything but accidental breedings
Clicker59: Thanks Christie I had a Blinking situation on my Monitor & I got a message saying I am not authorized to veiew this page afther I got bumped from here
AvalonBorzoi: then sounds like breeding to some of the field dogs for bird drive would be prudent ?
PHMowgli: We have a split in shelties
Clicker59: [img id=em-2]
EClatSPs: The vast majority of field titled dogs come from at least one finished parent in poodles.
AvalonBorzoi: I just finished in July my 29.5-30 inch male Borzoi
AvalonBorzoi: #1 ASFA Borzoi in 2003
SpringA_nr: We do not corss breed field dogs with show in this breed
Valkyrie: Isn't there a big difference between show Greys and racing Greys?
PHChristy: Val, night and day
AvalonBorzoi: #1 LGRA Borzoi in 2004
AvalonBorzoi: 17 shows from BBE
PHChristy: a universe of difference
Valkyrie: That's what I thought I remembered.
PHMowgli: we have working lines and conformation lines I have been combining them in my line
PHChristy: congrats, Avalon!
AvalonBorzoi: yes big difference in show and racing greys
PHChristy: AKC greys are just huge
SpringA_nr: it is said you could breed a show dog to hunt well but you will never be able to show a field dog
PHMowgli: spring who does better in field trials though?
AvalonBorzoi: in Borzoi and also in Deerhounds though a lot of people make a point to use the two lines together
PHChristy: Spring, I would really hate to see that in my breed, though
EClatSPs: Then why aren't more people doing that, SpringA
PHChristy: to me that seems sad
AvalonBorzoi: so that they can show dogs that are actually functional
PHChristy: HI gabbrielle! Welcome to Dog Breeding Chat! Our topic is multi-sired litters!
SpringA_nr: field breds
PHChristy: OK, here's a thought
PHChristy: what if...
PHChristy: you did a multi sire litter
SpringA_nr: now hold on our show breds are indeed functional
PHChristy: and used a field dog AND a show dog on your show or field bitch
PHMowgli: springa then doesn't say the show dogs have lost instinct and show breeders are doing something wrong?
SpringA_nr: you can hardly live with a field dog
EClatSPs: I think so, Mow.
PHChristy: so you could maintain diversity and not use up your bitch's breeding life unnecessarily
PHChristy: I'm not really serious, just trying to drag us back on topic
SpringA_nr: no it isn't that we have lost instinct. We have not over-emphasized it as the field breds have done
SpringA_nr: The ESS was not meant to be a fast paced nutso dog
Clicker59: What is going on in here am I doing anything wrong?
EClatSPs: How can you *over* emphasize something so intragal to the essence of the breed?
SpringA_nr: evrything in an ESS is moderate
PHMowgli: Loo I don't see any problems
PHBlackBear: Hi Everyone
AvalonBorzoi: if you never test the show breds then how do you know
RuffersRule: Hi BB
PHChristy: Hi there BlackBear! Welcome to Dog Breeding Chat! Our topic is multi-sired litters!
SpringA_nr: Even a field bred ESS should be able to sleep inside as a house pet.........Which many can not do
Clicker59: Then How come I am getting bumped Mow?
PHChristy: Hi, dropfred! Welcome to Dog Breeding Chat! Our topic is multi-sired litters!
Clicker59: Hi BB
PHMowgli: hey BB
EClatSPs: Well than I'd focus on that if I were in the breed, Spring.
PHMowgli: I don't know Loo
dropfred: Hi there. Just popping in to say hello to all !!
PHMowgli: maybe your server
PHChristy: well, the truth is, the extreme split in ESS is not something anyone but ESS fanciers can fix, or perpetuate, as they decide to do.
RuffersRule: Hi Drop
AvalonBorzoi: focus on what sleeping in the house :)
Clicker59: I hope mot
PHBlackBear: Hi Drop
AvalonBorzoi: true
PHChristy: I am only saying that FOR ME, it's not what I'd want for my breed
dropfred: Hi BB !!
AvalonBorzoi: we have the same discussion on Borzoi lists periodically
SpringA_nr: there is no problem with the split
PHChristy: I would cry my eyes out for years if my breed split
EClatSPs: Focus on having the moderation and an on-off switch.
EClatSPs: I'd work on finding a happy medium.
SpringA_nr: each is just specialized in its own way
AvalonBorzoi: those who don't use any field testing believe that those who do will split the breed by breeding for lure coursing
PHChristy: one year, the top coursing hound was the number one show dog and national specialty winner, the beatiful Fern
PHMowgli: I agree Christy and we do the same thing on shelties which is why so many of us are now crossing lines to get the pretty dogs who can work
EClatSPs: I'm want the result of my breeding program is a dog who could do both.
PHChristy: Avalon, did you ever see Fern?
AvalonBorzoi: when what peolpe are breeding for is sound running gear at a gallop
AvalonBorzoi: I talked to Fern a couple of years ago
AvalonBorzoi: when all that hullabaloo started
ode2adream: *is hoping to have pretty dogs that work*
PHChristy: Avalon, I mean the deerhound bitch Fern
AvalonBorzoi: oh yes
AvalonBorzoi: looked lovely in photos and at the Garden
AvalonBorzoi: I know she died of DCM didn't she?
PHChristy: that bitch could run, that bitch was a BIS deerhound, that bitch produced running hounds
PHChristy: yes, she died of DCM as did her mother and two of her sisters
AvalonBorzoi: yes she was truly superb
EClatSPs: What's DCM?
PHChristy: howeve,r she does have a surviving ten year old sister who is DCM free and who was bred on from
AvalonBorzoi: dilated cardiomyopathy
EClatSPs: OK.
AvalonBorzoi: I am so glad to hear that Christy
AvalonBorzoi: what a magnicifent bloodline to work with
PHChristy: she was a top racing and coursing dog, but just finishable conformationally .... she is a Ch
EClatSPs: Fortunately not one of the many problems in my breed....
PHBlackBear: Is DCM common in that breed?
PHChristy: Avalon, yes, I agree
PHChristy: DCM is very common in deerhounds
AvalonBorzoi: an unfortunate big dog problem
PHChristy: it's one of our "big three"
Valkyrie: I just found out that my manager is a Deerhound nut..has had several over the years.
EClatSPs: That sister must be the gem for their breeding program.
PHBlackBear: Hi Schok
AvalonBorzoi: concentrated because there are so few of them
PHChristy: WB Schokolade!
PHChristy: Val, what is her or his name?
AvalonBorzoi: she sure would be the gem of mine
Clicker59: What other Breeds Is DCM commin for other Breeds?
Valkyrie: I don't know her last name, sorry.
schokolade: Hello again.
PHChristy: Clicker, Dobies, Wolfhounds
PHMowgli: WB shok
PHChristy: Val, what's her first name?
AvalonBorzoi: it occurs in Borzoi but it isn't nearly as common as DH's or Great Danes or Dobes
Valkyrie: Laura
Clicker59: Do Bassets get them too Christie?
PHChristy: Clicker, not much, no
Clicker59: That makes me feel better
PHChristy: it's mostly the giant breeds, and one or two like Boxers and Dobies
PHChristy: although DCM in boxers and Dobies is not quite the same problem as in giants
dropfred: I have a ?. Are most of you here show people? Since I only pop in once in awhile...thought I'd ask !!
AvalonBorzoi: DCM, bone cancer and bloat
AvalonBorzoi: the big 3 for the big breeds
AvalonBorzoi: or actually cardiac problems in general
PHChristy: dropfred, I would say most of us, yes
AvalonBorzoi: ask away
dropfred: well, how wonderful !!
Valkyrie: dropfred...I'm not...I don't even breed. LOL
PHChristy: Avalon, after more than 20 years in deerhounds, I have my first osteo right now.
PHChristy: in a bitch I bought, nto bred. Still.
PHBlackBear: I'm with you Valkryie
PHChristy: not
AvalonBorzoi: that sucks
ode2adream: I show:)
AvalonBorzoi: I show some
dropfred: no? well, you have an interest in animals then....a healthy thing !!
PHMowgli: I show
PHChristy: It's one of the reasons I'm looking at Silkens, trying to get away from "the big 3"
AvalonBorzoi: I would be much more of a performance sport person
Valkyrie: You could say that, dropfred. LOL
PHChristy: I realize all dogs have problems and all breeds have genetic issues
PHBlackBear: Drop, I have never not had at least one dog
AvalonBorzoi: yes same here plus they live for so long
dropfred: tervs? Mowgli?
msjspann: I'm new to the show ring
PHMowgli: shelties dropfred
AvalonBorzoi: the big thing in Silkens is that ivermectin sensitivity courtesy of their Sheltie predecessors 20 years ago
dropfred: shelties are very nice dogs...
PHMowgli: avalon now I have had many many shelties and none with ivermectrin sensitivity
dropfred: BB, I can't remember when I only had ONE dog LOL
Valkyrie: me neither
RuffersRule: Lots of brushing with Shelties hee hee
AvalonBorzoi: I didn't mean that as a slam to Shelties
AvalonBorzoi: but it is a herding breed thing
AvalonBorzoi: not a sighthound thing
EClatSPs: What's your breed, drop?
ode2adream: lol
dropfred: yes, grooming can be truly full time.
PHMowgli: it is actually from collies though not shelties lets blame ode LOL
Valkyrie: That's okay there's some folks out there that don't seem to think Silkens deserve to exist.
PHChristy: Avalon, yes, and if it was just ivermectin that would be one thing, but it's brought a lot of other drugs along for the ride :(
AvalonBorzoi: so when it showed up in "longhaired Whippets" and Silkens since they have the LHW's behind them
dropfred: great danes and minpins.
ode2adream: Hey! *lol*
PHChristy: Val, that's quite true. It's extremely controversial.
PHBlackBear: That's why I like my Rotties - wash and go
AvalonBorzoi: yes it has other drugs along for the ride
AvalonBorzoi: the good news is there's a DNA swab test for it
ode2adream: Blame me all you want. *hugs her collie* I get collie kisses every night. :P
PHMowgli: I love my fuzzy butts LOL
AvalonBorzoi: so it is very easy to know if you have a carrier or a clear
PHChristy: the thing is, sighthound people have been mixing our breeds so much for so long, we're somewhat inured to the issue
PHChristy: Avalon, absolutely
PHBlackBear: Drop, that's quite a size difference
PHMowgli: yeah avalon but I am not sure if I will do all dogs or just their parents LOL
PHMowgli: me too Ode LOL
PHBlackBear: LOL Mow
dropfred: I have 4 rescue poms here...gee...LOTS of hair !!
EClatSPs: That's is quite a differenc, but I have no doubt who rules the house!
dropfred: yes, but they are both wonderful breeds !! Actually, I like all breeds !!
PHChristy: folks, let me say this was a wondeful breeding chat tonight, thank you to all who helped make it so interesting!
EClatSPs: difference, that it.
EClatSPs: that is.
ode2adream: hee
berta: hee he he we missed the end of chat
AvalonBorzoi: all dogs?
PHChristy: we're now going to become Showdog Chat ... but please stay!
PHBlackBear: Me too Drop - I love all dogs
PHMowgli: Welcome to ShowDog Chat!!
EClatSPs: Thanks for hosting us, Christy! ...even if we can't stay on topic!
Valkyrie: sit. stay. rollover.
PHChristy: I will post the transcript of this chat and look forward to seeing you next week!
dropfred: In my eh hem, extensive experience, I have had quite a few different breeds !!!
PHChristy: goodnight all!
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