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Transcript: Dog Breeding Chat Tuesday, December 9, 2003: Sharon Coleman, Legal Issues PH FasDog: Welcome to the Sixth Annual Chat Week at PetHobbyist. We are extremely pleased to have you all here! PH FasDog: DogHobbyist.com is pleased to welcome Sharon Coleman, attorney, director of "Responsible Dog Owners of the Golden State" and president of the "The Animal Council (TAC) who will be discussing "Rights of Dog Owners and Other Canine Legal and Legislative Issues" as our guest during our Sixth Annual Chat Week. PH FasDog: Sharon will give us a better understanding of how we can learn our local and state laws, when they are changing and how we can stay on top of the legislation that will effect us. Thanks, Sharon , and welcome! SharonColeman: Thank you, FasDog! Rueger: ? SharonColeman: The first thing I'd like to talk about is how I got involved with this SharonColeman: I've been watching dog legistlation since 1983 SharonColeman: I got involved more actively in 1986 SharonColeman: with breed specific legislation SharonColeman: then in 1990 the mandatory spay and neuter legislation was introduced in San Mateo CA where I live SharonColeman: at that time we formed a group to oppose the ordinance and were involved in SharonColeman: a lengthy task force process SharonColeman: out that emerged an organization called the ANimal Council SharonColeman: of which I am president SharonColeman: we publish email alerts on selected legislation, regulation, public policy and pet issues SharonColeman: since 97 I have been associated with the Cat Fanciers Association legilsative group SharonColeman: I work on both cat and dog issues and with other interest groups throughout the US and Canada SharonColeman: when I publish legislative updates for the Animal Council, I include a line that says SharonColeman: "Preserving our right to own and breed animals is your responsibility." SharonColeman: I want people to understand that each one of us is our own first and sometimes ONLY line of defense for our own and everyone's rights SharonColeman: FIrst, we have to know the laws where we live SharonColeman: Who enforces them? and by what policies? SharonColeman: and the overall political climate SharonColeman: second, we need to monitor the lawmaking bodies that cover the area where we live SharonColeman: and be ready to take action when things change SharonColeman: Many times no one else is going to do this SharonColeman: Third, we need to realistically assess our own situation SharonColeman: are we in a position to actively oppose a bad proposal? SharonColeman: Should we wait and see? Hide? Move? What should we do? SharonColeman: I can take any questions now.... ga PH FasDog: If you would like to ask a question of our Guest tonight, Sharon Coleman, please type in the chat a "?" or "!", you will be called upon in the order received. Hint...type out your question after you put your ? to the screen so you are ready.. and please put a G/A (go ahead) or Thank you at the end so we know you are finished with your question or remark. PHFlea: Rueger g/a PHFlea: Rueger g/a Rueger: The Puppy Protection Act is a real hot topic now that it is being presented again, Can you give us your feelings on this and how you feel it will affect the general pet puppy buying public As well as breeders? Thank you! GAChesters_nr: ? SharonColeman: Sure, I'd be glad to SharonColeman: I'm not sure that any of the current proposals on the table are going to affect anybody SharonColeman: the purpose of the changes is to focus more attention on the so-called commercial breeders (wholesalers) including those SharonColeman: who are falling under the radar screen of current licensing SharonColeman: as to the effect on puppy buyers SharonColeman: it's really hard to say SharonColeman: it's possible that there would be even a smaller supply of puppies SharonColeman: there is an article by Jim Holt about this SharonColeman: in Dog News Rueger: So do you agree with this proposal? SharonColeman: he is the AKC lobbyist in Washington DC SharonColeman: he explains the current developments in the Puppy Protection Act SharonColeman: and that is available this week online SharonColeman: at www.dognews.com SharonColeman: click on "What's New" and scroll down to the link at the bottom of the page SharonColeman: I have an attorney client relationship with the CFA so I really have to limit my public comments on public legislation SharonColeman: so that is all I can say at this point Rueger: ok thank you SharonColeman: but do read Jim's article Rueger: I will SharonColeman: ga PHFlea: GAChesters g/a GAChesters_nr: You mentioned knowing local laws and following governing bodies..What is the best way to go about this? PHFlea: ? PHFlea: Think of some questions will ya....roflmao SharonColeman: First, you want to get copies of the local laws SharonColeman: You may be able to find them online SharonColeman: your city or county may have a website with links to local laws SharonColeman: you would also want to check municode.com GAChesters_nr: Not here...where do I get them? SharonColeman: there are many local jurisdictions all over the US who have their laws there SharonColeman: this is a very useful site to bookmark and to check SharonColeman: if they are not online, then you want to get a hard copy SharonColeman: one place to check is your local library SharonColeman: an advantage of going to the library is not having to explain at City Hall or anywhere else why you want a copy SharonColeman: you can look through a hard copy PHFlea: Hi Mel can you come up with some questions.....I need peeps in the queue SharonColeman: look in the index, the table of contents SharonColeman: sometimes all the applicable laws are under the heading "Animals" SharonColeman: but sometimes there are mentions in other places, especially about limit laws SharonColeman: sometimes the animal laws don't specifiy limits on animals SharonColeman: this may be contained in zoning commissions SharonColeman: you will sometimes find it under definitions of "kennels" SharonColeman: you really have to look through the local laws and see what you can find SharonColeman: another concern SharonColeman: in reasearching local laws SharonColeman: involves selling puppies SharonColeman: sometimes just selling even one litter SharonColeman: might classify you as a home occupation or business SharonColeman: this is another issue you have to check in your local laws SharonColeman: it may n ot even specify selling animals under home occupations SharonColeman: it's good to know if "home occupations" require a variance, special licensing, etc SharonColeman: if you can't find the law at the library SharonColeman: another approach is to ask at City Hall or county offices SharonColeman: sometimes asking a clerk is not effective SharonColeman: they may tell you what they THINK the law is SharonColeman: and it's something different SharonColeman: they may give you a copy of something and it may not be complete SharonColeman: sometimes different oridinances are enacated at different times over the years SharonColeman: and may not have been combined into one complete ordinance GAChesters_nr: It is tricky to obtain all of the information without revealing much about why you want to know. SharonColeman: and a well-intended clerk will give you perhaps one or two, an dyou still don't have the complete law in front of you SharonColeman: Not necessarily, GAChesters SharonColeman: you can say you are considering moving there SharonColeman: another approach is if you have a club, have someone from your CLUB contact the local jurisdiction SharonColeman: an example of this is a club that contacted the County Counsel's office SharonColeman: and asked them to send copies of all laws affecting dogs in our jurisdiction SharonColeman: that's really taking an educational approach SharonColeman: nto focusing on any person SharonColeman: the club has a legitimate interest in knowing what the laws are, and educating thei rmembers, and just being aware SharonColeman: another approach would be to actually use an attorney, to be sure you have covered all the bases SharonColeman: sometimes there are even rules and administrative guidelines that may not be contained in the actual code SharonColeman: these can be trickier to obtain SharonColeman: and may require personal inquiry by someone, not necessarily you SharonColeman: did that cover it, GAChesters? GAChesters_nr: How do I keep up with new developements? SharonColeman: you should monitor the agendas of the law making bodies SharonColeman: city council, county boards of supervisors... different throughout the country SharonColeman: but all have agendas, and you want to see what is on those Minuet: ? GAChesters_nr: Ok good ideas!!! THANKS! SharonColeman: many areas are now online and you may even be able to subscribe and receive the agendas SharonColeman: or you may get a notice when they are posted SharonColeman: if the area is not online, then you may be able to check the agenda at the library, or subscribe by mail PH FasDog: If you would like to ask a question of our Guest tonight, Sharon Coleman, please type in the chat a "?" or "!", you will be called upon in the order received. Hint...type out your question after you put your ? to the screen so you are ready..and please put a G/A (go ahead) or Thank you at the end so we know you are finished with your question or remark. SharonColeman: or check at the city or county office SharonColeman: the key is to get the agendas SharonColeman: many local areas also have their meetings televised, on cable or via the Internet SharonColeman: it's a good idea to occasionally attend a meeting, or watch or listen in SharonColeman: to understand how a group works SharonColeman: how they treat the public SharonColeman: what kind of things they deal with GAChesters_nr: Great--Thanks so much!! SharonColeman: that way you have a sense how you would be able to approach the problem if it did arise SharonColeman: you're welcome! SharonColeman: ga PHFlea: Where can I go online to keep up with the BSL? Do you have specific websites that you recommend? SharonColeman: the approach to monitoring breed specific legislation is the same as anything else SharonColeman: you really have to start at home SharonColeman: some states, I believe there are 14 now, that have breed specific pre-emptions in state law SharonColeman: local jurisdictions are not SUPPOSED to enact breed specific laws SharonColeman: there are variations in wording and in how those work, especially in places that have recently enacted these pre-emptions SharonColeman: for example, Illinois earlier this year enacted a comprehensive breed specific pre-emption SharonColeman: previously IL had pre-emption language that applied only to vicious dog laws SharonColeman: that meant they couldn't treat vicious dogs differently due to breed SharonColeman: the new language is comprehensive and local jurisdictions are not going to be able to have breed specific laws SharonColeman: but there are a lot of them on the books and it can take a long itme to get them off SharonColeman: time Rueger: ? neonaura: Speaking of radar screens, I find that a lot of folks in my area who are in my club are simply trying to avoid revealing the number of dogs they have. It's interesting as cities tighten the acceptable legal number, the response is to avoid licensing. It's very circular. PH FasDog: If you would like to ask a question of our Guest tonight, Sharon Coleman, please type in the chat a "?" or "!", you will be called upon in the order received. Hint...type out your question after you put your ? to the screen so you are ready..and please put a G/A (go ahead) or Thank you at the end so we know you are finished with your question or remark. SharonColeman: websites can only post the information they receive or know about SharonColeman: the material on websites is only as good as the person furnishing it SharonColeman: you have to take a "buyer beware" approach SharonColeman: the AKC has a canine legislation department and in some cases will post alerts even on their homepage SharonColeman: they also cover issues in their almost monthly newsletter Taking Command SharonColeman: Taking Command is published on the AKC website, www.akc.org SharonColeman: and it's also mailed to clubs' legislative liasons SharonColeman: btw, I have Dalmatians and am active in the American Chesapeake Club Rueger: Is it actually legal to have a mandatory spay/nueter contract? Whatif unnecessary surgeries are against a persons individual beliefs? SharonColeman: just as an aside Rueger: Sorry hit wrong key SharonColeman: Rueger, should I answer that now? Rueger: sorry I mean to hit bkspace SharonColeman: did you mean to ask? Rueger: No sharon I am not up Rueger: but thank you for offerring PH FasDog: Rueger can go before me SharonColeman: we have to know, are we talking about in a contract, or a law? SharonColeman: which did you want to ask about, or both? Rueger: both please PHMorgan: . SharonColeman: yes, we can talk about both! SharonColeman: there are contracts for spay/neuter SharonColeman: there are laws that for spay/neuter SharonColeman: there are even laws that might require contracts for spay/neuter SharonColeman: first SharonColeman: a contract is an agreement between the buyer and the seller SharonColeman: if the buyer does not like the terms of the contract PHFlea: When you come in next chat, can you do the queue, I need to be available for phone SharonColeman: the buyer can walk away from the deal SharonColeman: the buyer can find another seller SharonColeman: in some breeds this may not be practical Rueger: gladly SharonColeman: but in the popular breeds SharonColeman: buyers can look in the paper, there are no contracts there SharonColeman: they can keep looking until they find a contract that is acceptable, or no contract at all SharonColeman: but the terms of the contract are LEGAL SharonColeman: and enforceable SharonColeman: if the contract is written and drafted appropriately SharonColeman: now, spay and neuter laws are a different topic SharonColeman: there are spay and neuter requirements that almost always are part of differential licensing or breeder licensing SharonColeman: the basic premise is that i f you pay enough, you can have an intact dog SharonColeman: another aspect of that is spay and neuter on release from an impound SharonColeman: that is sometimes a very difficult situation SharonColeman: there are variations in those laws SharonColeman: in drafting we would much prefer to see multiple impounds spelled out that might be specific to a particular person, address, or length of time SharonColeman: we also would like to see a provision for an administrative hearing SharonColeman: so the owner of the dog has opportunity to object and present information about why a dog should not be altered on release from impound SharonColeman: such as if they are traveling, dog got loose from a co-owner SharonColeman: many situations where a dog could be impounded and the owner was not responsible SharonColeman: if there are no provisions for a hearing SharonColeman: the owner can go directly to court SharonColeman: this is difficult and requires an attorney SharonColeman: many people are not prepared to do that SharonColeman: did you want me to cover anything else on that? Rueger: that what I wanted thank you so much SharonColeman: you're welcome! SharonColeman: ga PHFlea: Minuet g/a Minuet: I own 3 dogs that I walk often that are always leashed. I often get loose dogs approaching us. What recourse do I have if attacked by a loose dog that is owned by a neighbor? SharonColeman: it's a very common question PH FasDog: If you would like to ask a question of our Guest tonight, Sharon Coleman, please type in the chat a "?" or "!", you will be called upon in the order received. Hint...type out your question after you put your ? to the screen so you are ready..and please put a G/A (go ahead) or Thank you at the end so we know you are finished with your question or remark. SharonColeman: one that one of the Animal Council officers has been dealing iwth in her own neighborhood SharonColeman: she has been riding her horse, not walking a dog SharonColeman: first, we try talking to the neighbor SharonColeman: if that is not effective SharonColeman: inquire about conflict mediation in the area SharonColeman: in this case, there were none in her community PHFlea: ? SharonColeman: sometimes there are resources for neighborhood conflict resolution SharonColeman: if you can't settlle it that way, you have to make a complaint to animal control SharonColeman: there may be different standards for making the complaint Minuet: But what if my dogs or myself are injured? SharonColeman: if the AC officer doesn't see these things happen it can be very difficult Minuet: But what if my dogs or myself are injured SharonColeman: in our situation the officer used her digital camera and took pictures of the dog SharonColeman: coming onto her property in the evening SharonColeman: far away from where it should be SharonColeman: once the dog was in the middle of the road SharonColeman: these complaints have become the basis of a court action being pursued by animal control in the county damelbo: ? SharonColeman: recourse for injury SharonColeman: depends on local law SharonColeman: there could be a Dangerous Animal Hearing SharonColeman: the animal could be impounded SharonColeman: you can take civil action against the owner SharonColeman: in some cases the person might even be prosecuted under a criminal ordinance dobejudj_nr: ? Is there language already drafted somewhere that can be used for proposal to county commissioners that deals with conflict resolution codes. Thank you SharonColeman: there is a great danger in walking even your own trained, leashed dogs SharonColeman: ga PHFlea: Kind of on the same course, but I'm the one with an animal aggressive dog, what can I do to protect myself since there is no leash law in my town. Can I get in trouble if my dog attacks some other dog in my yard PHMorgan: Psst - folks let's keep to our protocol and be sure you post your "?" and wait to be called on PH FasDog: If you'd like to ask a question, please post a ? and you will be able to ask your question in order. SharonColeman: it's a good question SharonColeman: you do need to look at the LOCAL laws SharonColeman: and the state laws SharonColeman: we didn't get into how to find out your state laws SharonColeman: but I should interject you also need to know state law SharonColeman: in some cases in terms of dangerous dog laws SharonColeman: your local law may be more restrictive than the state law dobejudj_nr: ? SharonColeman: but in rural areas it's usually the state law that applies SharonColeman: you'll want to look at Dangerous Dog laws very closely SharonColeman: in some circumstances an intruding dog on your property is not going to bring your dog under a dangerous dog law SharonColeman: but in some cases it could SharonColeman: it's very important to not have your dog loose around your house witout adequate fencing SharonColeman: even if you have a fence, it's important to inspect the condition SharonColeman: some terrible things have happened to neighbors with dogs entering your yard and attacking your dog, or another dog entering your yard and being killed by your dog SharonColeman: as to what will happen, that will depend on the laws as far as prosecution SharonColeman: or dangerous dog hearing SharonColeman: however, the owner of the other dog can always brin ga civil action against you SharonColeman: whether it's well founded or not SharonColeman: this brings up the issue of home owners insurance SharonColeman: if you are sued, you'd want your defense costs be covered by homeowners insurance SharonColeman: and there are lots of problems these days with homeowners insurance and dogs SharonColeman: so the best thing is to try to avoid these situations SharonColeman: and avoid bringing our dog situation to the attention of our insurance arrier SharonColeman: carrier SharonColeman: ga PHFlea: Thank you! PHFlea: Damelbo g/a PH FasDog: If you'd like to ask a question of our Guest tonight, please type a ? or ! and you will be called in the other received. Hint...type out your question after you put your ? to the screen so you are ready. Please put a GA (go ahead) or Thank You at the end so we know you are finished asking your question. damelbo: Can you give an example (paraphrased) of a specific vicious dog law and how it is worded? And describe what that means? Rueger: ? SharonColeman: there are many variations SharonColeman: I think they are all too complex for me to give an example SharonColeman: but the bottom line is SharonColeman: if a dog does something, it might even be an attack on a cat or another dog, sometimes just an ALLEGED incident SharonColeman: about a person who has to take an evasive measure SharonColeman: the dog may be impouneded SharonColeman: there may be a hearing SharonColeman: the owner can be charged with a crime SharonColeman: and the dog can be ordered euthanized SharonColeman: I was one of a large group of attorneys SharonColeman: working very hard to save two dogs SharonColeman: and we ultimately lost on appeal SharonColeman: and were left with two dead dogs SharonColeman: it was a very, very unfortunate case SharonColeman: one of the dogs was completely innocent SharonColeman: and the other didn't do anything serious SharonColeman: ga PHFlea: Dobejudj g/a damelbo: thank you Ga dobejudj_nr: Is there language already drafted somewhere that can be used for a model proposal to county commissioners that deals with conflict resolution codes. GA SharonColeman: do you mean dispute resolution and mediation? dobejudj_nr: Yes SharonColeman: I'm not sure that there is model language SharonColeman: it might depend on what specific context the issue arose in SharonColeman: whether it's a nuisance, barking type complaint SharonColeman: or resolution of a kennel or fancier permit SharonColeman: but I have seen specific language but it's not really model language SharonColeman: it's not difficult to draft, though SharonColeman: if that's what you want to accomplish SharonColeman: if there is a community resource in your area, they may have some language SharonColeman: other than that I am not sure dobejudj_nr: New codes are being proposed in our area and it would be nice to have something that has already been drafted to present SharonColeman: well, we are not enthusiastic about model legislation SharonColeman: you really have to address each issue SharonColeman: why do you need new laws? what's wrong with the old ones? who wants the new ones? who's going to be hurt by the proposals? SharonColeman: ga PH FasDog: If you'd like to ask a question of our Guest tonight, please type a ? or ! and you will be called in the other received. Hint...type out your question after you put your ? to the screen so you are ready. Please put a GA (go ahead) or Thank You at the end so we know you are finished asking your question. PHFlea: Rueger g/a Rueger: Can you tell us how to get a copy of our State Dog laws or is it in the same place as the local laws? SharonColeman: I believe now all states have their laws online SharonColeman: you can check at your state's website SharonColeman: another very good resource is www.findlaw.com Rueger: Great! thank you! SharonColeman: there are links for each state SharonColeman: and you normally can find your state laws through that website PHFlea: another qustion quick....keep going SharonColeman: once you locate what resources are available it can still be tricky SharonColeman: so you'll have to see how your state laws are presented dobejudj_nr: The new codes proposed by a task force hopefully will not go through and we(the dog community) have been asked to come up with our own codes because the ones that task force came up with are very bad for dog owners/hobby breeders. SharonColeman: are they in one complete place, or sometimes they are in different places Rueger: Ok SharonColeman: dobejudi.... one second Rueger: I live in a very rural area and I breed and my county follows State rules but even my county does not know what rules they are following SharonColeman: in some states there will be laws that also have administrative rules SharonColeman: which is something else you have to check SharonColeman: often these rules may be adminstered by the Dept of Agriculture or other departments SharonColeman: but the first place to check is in the state code SharonColeman: some states have very little law SharonColeman: other states have extensive laws and regulations SharonColeman: if the county doesn' tknow they are probably n ot going to come after you Rueger: no actually they are very impressed LOL SharonColeman: it's improtatnt to try to find out who does enforcement in your local area SharonColeman: dobejudi Rueger: our county sherrif SharonColeman: we are currently working with Ann Arbor MI Rueger: but thank you again SharonColeman: is that the one? Rueger: I am in Michigan LOL SharonColeman: that was for dobejudi SharonColeman: also, have you contacted the AKC? SharonColeman: TheAnimalCouncil@cs.com is where you can contact me for more information as I believe we are out of time? PHFlea: When you do the closing, can we put something about a two minute break, so I can go potty SharonColeman: I'd especially like to hear from dobejudi about the Task Force, I can give her more information dobejudj_nr: We have a home rule County. Yes Patti Strand is working with us PH FasDog: Sharon, on behalf of all of us at DogHobbyist.com thank you so much for being our guest tonight! And thank you to all of you who attended. Please stay right in your seat and join us for our next guest Caroline Coile, Ph.D author "Show Me". For information on all our Chat Week events, please visit http://www.doghobbyist.com/DogChat.html Thank you and good night! SharonColeman: thank you very much for having me!
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