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Transcript: Dog Breeding Chat Tuesday, February 17, 2004: Accidental Breedings PHMorgan: Welcome to Breeder Chat. Our topic is Accidental Breedings. PHAthena: OH MY GAWD...I have an accidental HUMAN breeding, so I'm outta here before it happens again. Deerhounds: Hello Phran Phran_nr: Greetings to all. PHFlea: Hi Carol and Phran!! Minuet: Well...got work to do....see ya all later! Deerhounds: Hi Carol, I didn't see you come in PHAthena: ((((((((((gang)))))))))))) PHAthena: Later taters! Deerhounds: Night Athena! PHMorgan: So - those of you who have HAD acciental breedings, and those of you who KNOW of them, what is the most common reason for them???? Carol57: Hello everyone first time here Deerhounds: oh, let me tell you about mine Deerhounds: I had a dog, 10 months old PHMorgan: Let's vote: 1) Stupid forgot bitch was in....2) Someone didn't KNOW bitch was in 3) Thought bitch wasn't THAT far in... Deerhounds: I had a bitch in season Deerhounds: I had the bitch in my house, behind a closed door and a fence. Deerhounds: Next door my mom had the dog TJRuff_nr: I vote for bitch too old Deerhounds: behind a closed door and a fence Deerhounds: I came home and they were together Carol57: where there's a will... PHMorgan: This is what happens when the dogs are more determined than WE ARE Deerhounds: he had broken down the door at my mom's, climbed two fences which he'd never, ever shown any ability to climb before Deerhounds: broken down my door Deerhounds: ten months old PHMorgan: Very determined boy TJRuff_nr: no problem with his libido Deerhounds: I called his breeder and she said, "Yes, his sire was like that. His nickname was the Rapist of Chardon." Chardon was the town in Ohio where she lived. PHMorgan: OMG Deerhounds: NOW she tells me PHMorgan: GREAT PHMorgan: Did the bitch get pregnant? Deerhounds: yes, and I spayed her Carol57: I told my husband our first litter was an accident but he never believed me. (Produced 5 champions) PHMorgan: Aha Deerhounds: 11 fetuses PHMorgan: LOL PHMorgan: Was this a mix, Deer? TJRuff_nr: owie Deerhounds: no, and in retrospect I think it might have been a nice litter Deerhounds: Hi Frog! PHMorgan: Hiya, Frog FrogDog: hey PHMorgan: So - aside from sheer superdog determination, what do we htink is the biggest reason accidental breedings happen? TJRuff_nr: hi frog FrogDog: how do accidental breedings typically occur? Deerhounds: I think us misjudging the situation Deerhounds: and family members or caretakers messing up TJRuff_nr: human error? Deerhounds: yes, human error PHMorgan: Yeah - that probably sums it up - HUMAN ERROR Deerhounds: ROFL Deerhounds: ok, so chat's over? PHMorgan: OK - so Christie has given us ONE solutino- spaying the bitch - let's talk about some others Deerhounds: hoping for the best PHMorgan: No, deer- chat is NOT over - now we move on to toenail clipping PHMorgan: Well, you can always HAVE the litter PHMorgan: Sometimes it can surprise you FrogDog: I don't see why the bitch would need to be spayed...unless her health is at risk Carol57: Like I said-first litter-5 champions PHMorgan: Well, if you do NOT want the pups, and don't plan on breeding again, why not spay her? It solves the problem PHMorgan: I've done it to pregnant rescue dogs a few times FrogDog: rescue is a different matter. TJRuff_nr: it is more dangerous to spay a bred bitch is it not? Deerhounds: yes, it is Deerhounds: I spayed Lillie because I felt that the breeding wasn't a good one Deerhounds: they both had less then perfect rears Deerhounds: and her temperament wasn't right Deerhounds: however, I later decided I was too picky about her Deerhounds: and wished I'd bred her Deerhounds: but he still wouldn't have been the right dog for her eek_nr: Hello all TJRuff_nr: don't feel bad we all have that 20:20 hindsight Deerhounds: she was spicy in her temperament, but did not have a "bad" temperament Deerhounds: Hi eek! PHMorgan: Welcome to Breeder Chat! Topic tonight: Accidental Breedings TJRuff_nr: hi eek FrogDog: but they would have produced perfectly acceptable s/n pets....and you could have done a better breeding later?? Deerhounds: FrogDog, there's really no market for pet deerhounds Deerhounds: or almost none PHMorgan: Some breeds do NOT make easily placed pets Deerhounds: they go almost exclusively to fanciers Deerhounds: and I'd just had a huge litter PHMorgan: It was probably best at that time FrogDog: geez...give me a call next time you have a pet! Show or not, Deerhounds are breathtaking! Carol57: What is a huge litter for deerhounds? Deerhounds: looking back, I wish I'd let her have them. So in a way I agree with you. But I think either way could have worked out. TJRuff_nr: brb PHMorgan: Has anyone heard of the drugs that can be given to abort the litter? Deerhounds: Carol, deerhounds routinely have 10-14, and I've seen litters of more than 20 PHMorgan: ONe vet friend of mine says they are perfectly safe Deerhounds: Morgan, yes, I investigated that and decided I couldn't possibly put her through it. And the repro vet I talked to said she would never put a bitch she loved through it PHMorgan: Deer - that is an OBSCENE number of pups PHMorgan: Did your vet say it was SAFE? PHMorgan: WB< eeke Deerhounds: I think she did say it was safe but extremely hard on the bitch Deerhounds: that you basically induce labor and they deliver an entire litter of dead puppies Deerhounds: sounded pretty horrific to me PHMorgan: I guess how hard it is on the bitch depends on the number and size of the pups and how far along she is PHMorgan: Definitely sounds awful Deerhounds: and how emotionally sensitive the bitch is Deerhounds: deerhounds are VERY soft PHMorgan: And then you have to DISPOSE of them PHMorgan: My pointers would be heartbroken Carol57: I feel completly ignorant, I thought a litter of 10 Vizsla's was a God's pleanty PHMorgan: Z spent 2 hours fussing over her wounded babies when the dewclaws were removed Deerhounds: FrogDog, deerhounds are very beautiful, but few homes have the kind of situation that a deerhound needs Deerhounds: LOL Carol, listen, I WISH I could have litters of 5-6 Deerhounds: I think that's perfect Carol57: What type of home does a deerhound need? PHMorgan: LARGE and SPACIOUS... LOL Deerhounds: lots of securely fenced land and to not be left alone Deerhounds: this isn't a breed who, at least when young, you can leash walk or just take to the dog park FrogDog: do they tend to be destructive? Deerhounds: when they are young, if they dont' get enough exercise (and they need HUGE HUGE amounts of it), yes Carol57: I have 50 acres and I must be spoiled. PHMorgan: Only if there is a bitch in season Deerhounds: LOL Morgan Deerhounds: yes, then they break down doors and walls Deerhounds: I have six acres Carol57: How much does an adult deerhound weigh? PHMorgan: <---wishes she had 6 acrds PHMorgan: OK - so we have seen that we DO have options besides having the litter, some easier some harder PHMorgan: how often do you think the litters turn out ok? What is the biggest risk? Deerhounds: Carol, around a hundred pounds Carol57: The trick with a Vizsla is to get them to stay reasonably within the 50. Deerhounds: a bit less for some, a bit more for others Deerhounds: Carol, well, that's just not an option with deerhounds. You have to have a fence Deerhounds: they can run 45 miles an hour Deerhounds: and will chase anything that moves PHMorgan: And do Deerhounds: fences are not optional PHMorgan: Deer - you have six FENCED acres? Deerhounds: Yes, I have six fenced acres PHMorgan: <----busily PACKING all the pointers and their stuff.... moving n with Deerhounds Deerhounds: LOL FrogDog: hehe...just like a frenchie, only faster! Carol57: Well that wouldn't work here with all the deer. I have enough trouble just with mine. Deerhounds: so, sorry for getting off topic, LOL Deerhounds: deerhounds will catch and kill deer Deerhounds: which is actually against the law PHMorgan: Smacking Deer hounds with a wet noodle TJRuff_nr: I have had both ends with the older girls, a litter of 4 out of a 9 yr old, and 5 dead pups out of an 8 yr old Deerhounds: dead pups are always so sad PHMorgan: Wow - at least they were small litters Deerhounds: I have seen some accidental breedings turn out great FrogDog: TJRuff...what breed?? TJRuff_nr: neither had cycled for 18 mo prior Deerhounds: but sometimes the only thing "accidental" was the timing PHMorgan: I had a friend have a father/daughter breeding and thankfully there were only 4 pups TJRuff_nr: huge litters actually, poms Deerhounds: yikes, no kidding! Deerhounds: there was a litter of deerhounds being shown several years ago Deerhounds: and they were quite small FrogDog: at what age to you folks typically retire your girls? Deerhounds: and it turned out they were deerhound/saluki mixes eek_nr: wow PHMorgan: Between 6 and 8. Depends on the bitch Deerhounds: but no one knew until they were almost a year or so old PHMorgan: OOPS Deerhounds: including the breeder, she had no idea PHMorgan: She musta been so upset! Carol57: Last breeding usually at 6. Deerhounds: my friend Cathy came home and found one of her dogs tied with her bitch through a chain link fence PHMorgan: Welcome to Breeder Chat! Topic tonight: Accidental Breedings Deerhounds: Afghan hounds PHMorgan: Wow - usually you can't GET them to breed FrogDog: oops! TJRuff_nr: usually 5 or 6, but I like to pet them PHMorgan: Pointers are pretty determined - that father daughter breeding was through a crate Deerhounds: yes, sometimes no matter what you do, things happen Deerhounds: "Things" being a euphenism for a totally different word PHMorgan: Which I believe, because when he was bred to MY bitch, I WATCHED Him try to breed her through the crate PHMorgan: LOLOL PHMowgli: one of my best litters was an accident PHMorgan: I will say, the father/daughter breedin gproduced some nice dogs PHMorgan: ONly one had any problems - a bad bite. Which frankly, can occur in any breeding Deerhounds: absolutely PHMorgan: It was too bad - otherwise she was STUNNING PHMorgan: It was a reassuring thing to see - such a close breeding and no noticeable genetic faults TJRuff_nr: friend had cockeranians through chain link PHMorgan: And both dogs were pretty linebred to BEGIN with Deerhounds: oy PHMorgan: ARG Deerhounds: that same friend had an Afghan breed a dachshund, the dachshund got up on the bed Deerhounds: I mean, you just NEVER know PHMorgan: MAN they are DETERMINED! PHMowgli: mine was an outcross but it was the coloring I would never breed intentionally LOL PHMorgan: Hey - I watched a 4 month old visiting Cavalier try to breed Solo last month Deerhounds: LOL Deerhounds: I don't mean to take it lightly, I think that it IS a shame when we have ooops litters TJRuff_nr: stud dog in training Deerhounds: even if we place in pet homes, those are pet homes that are not available to other dogs Deerhounds: but life isn't perfect and these things happen PHMorgan: That's true Deerhounds: you just have to be as responsible as you would be with a planned litter Deerhounds: same placement policies, same follow through, same screening PHMorgan: And friends of mine have had accidental breedings, and I've helped out to my own detriment Deerhounds: no good deed goes unpunished PHMorgan: Right now I'm expecting a HUGE litter from Z, and I've sent so manyh of my puppy homes to others that I'm now wondering what the heck I'm going to do with all these pointers! PHMorgan: Z looks like a MANATEE PHMorgan: She was standing next to her daughter last night, and Z is LITERALLY TWICE as wide as Scarlett PHMowgli: how many pups Morgan? Deerhounds: LOL PHMorgan: X-ray on Tuesday PHMorgan: I'd say 9-12 Deerhounds: folks, I am having a sudden really painful back spams, I'm going to run PHMorgan: Night, Deer PHMorgan: She had 10 last time TJRuff_nr: morgan do you have problems in the breed with uterine inertia? PHMorgan: It's not unheard of PHMorgan: I had it in one bitch PHMorgan: With a HUGE 22 ounce singleton TJRuff_nr: not nice... PHMorgan: The next TIME she HAD labor, but he pups were too large to pass. They had to PEEL the uterus off the one in front when they did the section PHMorgan: However, Z had no trouble with her 10 PHMorgan: Altho it took her FOREVER PHMorgan: Started at 4:30AM. First puppy born 6:30AM PHMorgan: LAst puppy born 7:30 PM TJRuff_nr: I bet I can beat forever PHMorgan: Yeah? PHMorgan: How long? PHMowgli: my girls normally go into labor inafternoon and have all pups by midnight LOL PHMowgli: normally 1-2 hrs of hard labor and I have the whoel litter born LOL PHMorgan: Welcome to Breeder Chat! Topic tonight: Accidental Breedings PHMorgan: YARNELL! PHMowgli: Yarnell howdy PHMowgli: long time no see how are those Saints? yarnell_nr: Hi everyone I hope that you are all doing well TJRuff_nr: 15 years ago on the 10th first pup born at 7:00 pm water broke 8:30 previous night last pup born after 2:00 am next morning, 30 hrs after first yarnell_nr: Saints are doing great. We have a new champion. Took a five point major two weeks ago!!!!!! TJRuff_nr: congrats yarnell PHMowgli: congrat Yarnell!!!!! PHMorgan: WOW!!! THAT is GREAT yarnell_nr: thanks PHMorgan: OMG that is a LONG time, TJ TJRuff_nr: this was all under the supervision of a vet PHMorgan: LOL PHMorgan: Good save, TJ PHMorgan: We never thought anything else! LOL TJRuff_nr: thank heaven all 8 gorgeous little black chows survived PHMowgli: I assumed vet knew waht was going on LOL PHMorgan: Amazing they didn't feel a section was necessary PHMowgli: yes my vet will section if over 2 hrs in labor and no pups PHMowgli: hard labor that it TJRuff_nr: I was too naive then believed all vets knew PHMowgli: is* yarnell_nr: my vet will do the same after two hours PHMorgan: Mine too\ PHMorgan: But NOT always if bitch is RESTING PHMorgan: Z had about 2 hours of sleep before she got started again on that last puppy PHMowgli: darn good thing my vet is like that though my last 2 litters were drawn out labors and both had ruptures PHMorgan: It took about 1 hour to deliver - I was just starting to chat with the vet about whether we would need a section for that last dang puppy TJRuff_nr: ruptures? mowgli PHMowgli: no morgan not if resting between pups PHMowgli: yes TJ uterus ruptured in both of bitches TJRuff_nr: ok, lost a gir lin transit to vet PHMowgli: the litter before that was a torsion so I am hoping my 3 bad litters are over with and I get back to normal whelpings LOL yarnell_nr: i hope that things go better for you and your girls PHMorgan: Oh, hey guys, we need a topic for next week FrogDog: weighing out faults in studs? PHMowgli: me too Yarnell I will know withing a few months as soon as my 3 yr old comes into heat she will bred LOL PHMowgli: cross faulting great topic morgan PHMorgan: OK - let's do that - er... what do you mean by cross faulting?? PHMowgli: cross faut boys to girls PHMowgli: how do prospective parents match up together PHMorgan: HOKAY PHMowgli: ie bites, toplines, tails etc PHMorgan: DONE PHMowgli: peds the whole nine yards LOL PHMorgan: OK - I think it is now time for showdogs PHMorgan: And Z says she must potty NOW NOW NOW PHMorgan: LOL yarnell_nr: i wil try to be here but i amgetting ready for the fla circuit next week FrogDog: cool...already working on my questions! PHMorgan: I told her not to tank up on the water PHMorgan: See ya'll next week - good luck iN FLA, Yarnell! PHMowgli: Welcome to Show Dog Chat!!!!!!!! yarnell_nr: thanks goodnight TJRuff_nr: nite morgan FrogDog: Mow, what's the topic? PHMowgli: well I was thinking we could do getting started in showing PHMowgli: but if you want something else say the word LOL PHMowgli: I am free to suggestions LOL FrogDog: not necessarily a "topic", but was wondering how folks feel about altering for show...what is too much? PHMowgli: Welcome to Show Dog Chat!!!!!!!! PHMowgli: frog you mean like chalks and such? PHMowgli: tungsten on ears and so forth PHMowgli: temp stuff or permanent? FrogDog: temp....chalk, coloring nails, etc FrogDog: what is tungsten?? PHMowgli: well I don't know what others think but I do not totally agree with it PHMowgli: tungsten is lead powder used on collies and shelties and dogs who need ears to tip a certain way PHMowgli: it is used to weight hte ears PHMowgli: Welcome to Show Dog Chat!!!!!!!! FrogDog: me neither....my bitch is nearly 2 and I finally bit the bullet and let someone clip her whiskers PHMowgli: but I can say I tried to show without any temp alterations at all and did not win when I started using hte stuff I began winning big time so I now use hte whole works TJRuff_nr: apoms are a breed where the standard calls for them to be shown "natural" then they get packed and sculpted and sprayed FrogDog: other than a bath and nail trim, all her points have been won naturally PHMowgli: I am not saying it is right but I hate to see a lesser specimen win cause they ahve gunk on them PHMowgli: TJ same with shelties but if they are not gunked you don't win PHMowgli: I actually think many judges do not correct coat feel PHMowgli: know* FrogDog: that's what got me to let her whiskers get clipped. She's been beat by lesser dogs and I suspect it's only because they look "cleaner" and more prepared PHMowgli: I won't sculpt my dogs but I do use crown royal now and I do use chalk now TJRuff_nr: I was afraid to go near a wall after the last handler got akold of Kitty,thought she would stick PHMowgli: yes frog it can be very frustrating PHMowgli: TJ probably would LOL PHMowgli: I have seen handlers coloring coats with magic markers TJRuff_nr: and noses and lips and eyelids PHMowgli: no coats LOL PHMowgli: I could understand a bit of marker on a young dogs nose FrogDog: VERY frustrating! I realize how naive I've been...I knew white dogs were chalked, but am just now realizing the lengths people are going to to win PHMowgli: but to color a sunburnt coat with a magic marker is just stupid TJRuff_nr: last fall show saw a "choc" cocker, that colour does not occur in nature, where are the judges PHMowgli: the other thing I disagree with is the professional handlers talking to judges aobut other shows they were at under the same judges FrogDog: I was shocked to see a dog I really liked actually has white nails...they are black in every show photo TJRuff_nr: what breed frog? FrogDog: Frenchie PHMowgli: yep coloring nails is big too PHMowgli: but you don't have to fight against lead on ears like i do LOL PHMowgli: and frenchies are smooth coated so you don't have to deal with the sculpters either at least TJ gets that too LOL TJRuff_nr: Friend imported some from Russia, havn't seen them yet TJRuff_nr: Frenchies FrogDog: It's dishearteing. I don't see how the dogs can be judged properly when the judge is not looking at the true dog PHMowgli: oh I wonder how they compare to what we are used to seeing FrogDog: Russian frenchies?!?!?! Nooooooo!!!!!!! PHMowgli: frog I don't think the judges know what a true dog of any breed looks or feels like except maybe the breed they are in themselves FrogDog: There are a handful of good Russian Frenchie breeders, but most should be avoided like the plauge TJRuff_nr: ok I imported a european Oriental shorthair cat I know why I shouldn't have done that in retrospect. PHMowgli: for what TJ to breed? PHMowgli: if so what breed TJRuff_nr: what is wrong with the russioan Frenchies? FrogDog: where to start! FrogDog: health FrogDog: temperament FrogDog: TYPE FrogDog: did I mention health?? PHMowgli: frog is that just to american breeders though LOL TJRuff_nr: if I could spell. The OSH is a solid colour siamese, and that was 20 years ago. She didn't even resemble ours though she was a champion FrogDog: your friend could have saved time by just going to the auctions....tons of them there PHMowgli: I know in shelties we criticise the english breeders when they are breeding dogs more to the original standard and type that was actually called for we however have really changed what we started with in the breed and now think ours are much better LOL FrogDog: I can assure you, this is not the case PHMowgli: Welcome to Show Dog Chat!!!!!!!! SpringA_nr: Hello everyone TJRuff_nr: We're in Canada it's hard to find good dogs of some breeds PHMowgli: I don't know frenchies which is why I love this chat I get to learn a little bit about all breeds LOL PHMowgli: Hey springa how are you tongiht PHMowgli: tonight we are actually discussing dog showing LOL TJRuff_nr: hi spring FrogDog: they are fast becoming popular TJRuff_nr: the kiss of death PHMowgli: yes I am seeing more and more Frenchies than I ever did before SpringA_nr: What is the topic tonight? PHMowgli: and I have a feeling Newfy's will sky rocket in the mills now too FrogDog: no worries....after the $$ is gone, we'll be left to pick up the pieces and move on PHMowgli: SpringA we are talking about how dogs are groomed for show in America PHMowgli: all the chalking and such PHMowgli: Welcome to Show Dog Chat!!!!!!!! FrogDog: they are in commercials and one has starred in a few movies already PHMowgli: Hi ugo FrogDog: NOT what the breed needs FrogDog: any breed, for that matter PHMowgli: nope no breed needs all that marketing TJRuff_nr: Fran Drescher nearly killed us PHMowgli: yep with her poms I can imagine that PHMowgli: Betty White having only shelties was a big thing for us yrs ago PHMowgli: everyone in the world was or knew a breeder FrogDog: I'm sure the Chow folks just love Martha Stewart SpringA_nr: This sounds like popularity vs grooming am I missing something?? PHMowgli: yep I am sure they do FrogDog: sorry, Spring....we got sidetracked TJRuff_nr: Chows are sort of self limiting...too hard to breed PHMowgli: SpringA we kinda got offtopic when we started discussing an importation SpringA_nr: oh ok I was just checking PHMowgli: but back to the topic LOL TJRuff_nr: sorry FrogDog: yes, back to the topic SpringA_nr: PHMowgli: but their dog looks so different from all the others of their breed
PHMowgli: why is this?
PHMowgli: now you guys get to chime in LOL
SpringA_nr: well I think you start with a clean brushed dog and then you tweak it up a notch
PHMowgli: what do you see happening in your breed that you feel is not natural
SpringA_nr: Springers are just as much at fault for over grooming as the next breed but in order to be competetive the dog must look the part
PHMowgli: SpringA why tweak it? what is wrong with how nature made your dog?
SpringA_nr: nature doesn't make it's top coat lay flat
FrogDog: the same thing with every other breed...
PHMowgli: I am playing devils advocate here as I know why I groom my dogs the way I do LOL
SpringA_nr: I am a groomer by trade and have to admit I enjoy the show stuff
FrogDog: nature doesn't make coats as white as possible
PHMowgli: tell me what you do with your breed and why please that way I get to learn too
SpringA_nr: I think grooming is what sets us apart from field people
FrogDog: or coats as full as you'd like
PHMowgli: SpringA does that mean a dog in a show groom is less capable of winning a field trial?
SpringA_nr: all breed judges like hair.........and quick movement in a gun dog
SpringA_nr: YES
PHMowgli: why is this?
SpringA_nr: field people have spent generations on NOT growing coat so their dogs stay low maitenence in the brush
PHMowgli: I am really curious here not being sarcastic ]
PHMowgli: oh ok so for field the less coat the better
SpringA_nr: Truth be told a show springer could not hunt.....well without having to be dematted for hours
PHMowgli: for conformation the more coat the better thance of a win
PHMowgli: chance*
TJRuff_nr: every time I look at my friend's american cockers all I can picture is them spread eagle in a bramble bush
SpringA_nr: yes coat makes them look more mature
SpringA_nr: it hides more faults
PHMowgli: I like the Englich cocker better myself but that is just my preference
SpringA_nr: you can't always see correct front assembly coming and going but you see beautiful chest coat
PHMowgli: yes I know all about hiding faults with good grooming being in shelties LOL
SpringA_nr: but my take is I won't go out of my way to grow coat
PHMowgli: I could hide a bad rear with a nice full pantaloon
SpringA_nr: just manage what is there and groom to the dog's best points.........I like my dogs to be dogs, swim, play wrestle in the mud
PHMowgli: oh great
PHMowgli: my guys are just pets who happen to show in my opinion
FrogDog: exactly!
PHMowgli: and I am not a sculpture I clean and brush my dogs fluff coats but I do not want to change the dog with grooming
PHMowgli: if I wanted to sculpte dogs I would get some clay LOL
Lesya: hello [img id=em-3]
PHMowgli: Welcome to Show Dog Chat!!!!!!!!
TJRuff_nr: hi lesya
PHMowgli: Hey Lesya welcome we are discussing grooming for show
Lesya: alright
SpringA_nr: Hi Lesya
Lesya: I can't contribute to that too much, since my girl is "wash and wear"
Lesya: hello
Lesya: lol
PHMowgli: no dog is truly wash and wear for conformation LOL
FrogDog: Lesya...what breed?
SpringA_nr: what breed Lesya?
Lesya: American bulldog
PHMowgli: we chalk and powder and primp all dogs in the conformation ring in America LOL
FrogDog: gotta love those bullies!
Lesya: She really is though. All she needs is a bath and a drydown
Lesya: I guess in AKC conformation that happens
SpringA_nr: now see I don't think any dog is wash and wear I used to show Boxers I was amazed at all the mascara and shaving believe it or not
Lesya: with UKC you aren't allowed to
PHMowgli: no chalking to brighten a white area or deepen a darker area?
Lesya: nope
Lesya: you aren't allowed to overly groom a dog
Lesya: hold on, I'll give you a link to the rules
SpringA
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