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PHChristy: Hello everyone! Hey there Caroline! It's Christie!

ccoile: Hey!

PHChristy: How are you doing? Welcome to Dog Breeding Chat!

ccoile: wait a minute--you have a cool deerhound icon...

PHChristy: LOL, would you like me to make a Saluki one?

ccoile: if it's my saluki...

PHChristy: I shamelessly exploited my position to make an icon of my own dog

PHChristy: I am a bad person

ccoile: but of course you should have a sluki one.

PHFlea: Hi Christy!! Sorry was doing a few things, just walked in the door

PHChristy: Hi, Flea!

PHChristy: PHMorgan phoned me and she will be late as she is dealling with some bitch issues tonight

PHChristy: Hello corgilover! Welcome to Dog Breeding Chat!

PHFlea: Hi Corgi!!

corgilover: Hi everyone

PHChristy: Her bitch is due to whelp in about a week and has gone on a hunger strike

PHFlea: Oh boy.....

PHChristy: and as many times as we see that happen, of course every time it's an emergency

PHChristy: Caroline, if you send me a nice headshot of one of your dogs, I'll be glad to make it into an icon for you

PHFlea: Will she lap up some chicken broth??

ccoile: OK...

PHChristy: Flea, I think that Morgan was at the "handfeeding gourmet goat cheese" stage

PHFlea: She can come and handfeed me some "gourmet goat cheese".......lolol

PHChristy: it's not uncommon for bitches to stop eating before they whelp, although some eat between puppies, LOL

PHChristy: mine can usually only eat very tiny meals when they get close

ccoile: My dogs often eat that roll food when they will eat nothing else--they prefer it over real meat.

PHChristy: I've been mostly lucky, I've only had one dog who was a hard keeper

PHChristy: he would always eat eggs scrambled with Parmesan cheese

PHChristy: which amazingly, you CAN live on

PHFlea: I posted a news article in dogs you all might be interested in....about a gag breeder giving males viagra

PHChristy: a gag breeder?

PHFlea: I chose the word gag instead of the real word I wanted to say

PHChristy: LOL

PHChristy: Hello PoLow! Welcome to Dog Breeders Chat! Our topic tonight is "Evaluating Breedings"

PHFlea: they confiscated aprox 100 dogs

PHChristy: oh man

PHFlea: Hi PoLow

PHChristy: why on EARTH would he give a dog viagra???

PoLow_nr: Hello and Thank you

PHChristy: don't answer that

PHChristy: PoLow, how are you doing tonight?

PHFlea: Christy.....just read the article it's beyond belief

PoLow_nr: Fine thank you.......looking forward to this subject!

PHChristy: Tonight we're going to be discussing how we evaluate breedings.... looking at potential studs for their ability to bring desired traits into our breeding programs

PHChristy: and to address weaknesses in our bitches

PHChristy: well, other people's bitches, as all OUR bitches are, of course, perfect

PHChristy: this is totally hypothetical

PHChristy: Hello IrishSttr! Welcome to Dog Breeders Chat! Our topic tonight is "Evaluating Breedings"

PHChristy: I was just making a small joke that everyone at this chat has perfect bitches with no faults to correct

PHChristy: but no one laughed so I guess it was a VERY VERY small joke

PoLow_nr: and I was lol........but forgot to tell you!

ccoile: I admit...I have an ulterior motive for being here. (don;t I always?)

ccoile: oh--hahahaha

PHChristy: Caroline, what's that??

PHFlea: Christy I was thinking you were giving me a compliment.......lololol

PHChristy: ROFL

IrishSttr_nr: I was just curious about something and was hoping that the answer might be mentioned here

ccoile: I'm in th emiddle of an rticle for Dog Woeld on "Selecting a Stud Dog"

PHChristy: Hello Cindy! Welcome to Dog Breeders Chat! Our topic tonight is "Evaluating Breedings"

ccoile: I need a few quotes!

PHChristy: Caroline, what great timing!

cindy_nr: thank you

PHFlea: Oh sneaky sneaky Caroline.......

PHChristy: I think that the basics are very different for those in breeds with large numbers.

ccoile: so if anybody says anything particularly stunning I may be asking your permission to quote you!

PHChristy: Hello Trav! Welcome to Dog Breeders Chat! Our topic tonight is "Evaluating Breedings"

PHChristy: Caroline, sounds good, I will try to be profound.

ccoile: Yes, do be profound please.

PHChristy: With breeds that have large numbers, I think that evaluating the stud dog's progeny is essential.

PHChristy: For those of us in breeds with small numbers, that's rarely possible.

PHChristy: Studs often only sire a single litter, even studs of good quality and accomplishments.

IrishSttr_nr: why is that do you suppose?

PHChristy: For us, we have to rely more on evaluating the littermates of the stud, and their progeny if any

PHChristy: and on pedigree analysis

PHChristy: and of course, on phenotype, the actual physical "look" of the dog himself (and his other traits(

PHChristy: Irish, simply because there is very little breeding in some breeds

PHChristy: in breeds with very low numbers, there mightr be only a handlful of litters in a year

ccoile: The small number of litters sired reflects in part just the smaller number of bitches bred, plus bitch owners breeding to their own studs because otherwsie that male's line mught go extinct. Plus in some breeds, at least in mine, there is a stigma attached to using your stud too often

travlinpom_nr: and many of us dont stand our boys at stud

IrishSttr_nr: oh, I see

PHChristy: For instance, if your breed is Dobermans, you won't have trouble finding any number of stud dogs who have sired many litters, and can evaluate their offspring accordingly. You may even be able to find bitches related to your bitch, and evaluate how they produced when bred to that stud.

PHChristy: Caroline, and really, that's a GOOD stigma!

PHChristy: Especially in breeds with small numbers, we run a grave risk of having a bunch of lines that are all pretty well interrelated, and losing all hope of diversity in our gene pool

cindy_nr: glad to know i done that part right!

PHChristy: "Popular sire" syndrome is often seen as a curse of more popular breeds....

ccoile: When i had a "popular" (haha) stud, I limited him to one breeding a year

PHChristy: but it can destory breeds that have small numbers

PHChristy: Caroline, and I'm sure there are those who said even that was too much!

PHChristy: Hello dlcarr! Welcome to Dog Breeders Chat! Our topic tonight is "Evaluating Breedings"

PHChristy: Cindy, can you say more about what you did right?

PHChristy: I'd also love to know what breeds people have, if it's not already in your username. I have Scottish Deerhounds.

PHChristy: Hello, hildiesmom! Welcome to Dog Breeders Chat! Our topic tonight is "Evaluating Breedings"

cindy_nr: i reasearched the females in the same line from different sires

PHChristy: Cindy, what breed?

cindy_nr: then i reasearched the offspring and was able to see

IrishSttr_nr: we've got a pregnant Silky Terrier...though the long-term goal is to breed Setters

travlinpom_nr: Pomeranians here, and the picture on my avatar is my top stud dog "Asa"

hildiesmom: Hi. I have standard smooth dachshunds...

cindy_nr: each one as the breeder had carefully kept the lines distinct

ccoile: salukis

PHChristy: Cindy, that's good, I think it does make the guesswork less

PoLow_nr: Polish Lowland Sheepdogs :)

PHChristy: I envy people who have that kind of information available to them!

cindy_nr: iam just a hobby breeder and breed for the love of doing it right not selling the puppies

PHChristy: :)

PHChristy: don't say "just" a hobby breeder

PHChristy: Me, I just breed to lose money.

cindy_nr: i have chihuahuas and just love the breed

travlinpom_nr: LOL, yep, losing money in a BIG way!!

PHChristy: So, I did want to say that evaluating a stud dog by phenotype is not useless.

PHChristy: If you have a bitch with an overarched topline, you want to find a stud dog with a correct topline.

PHChristy: And he should also come from lines that tend to have correct toplines

PHChristy: and ideally, moving beyond phenotype alone, you'd want to see if he produced offspring with correct topline

ccoile: how do you think litter size affects your ability to evaluate a stud? I meanm with Chi small litters, you get to see moreliters I guess, but few dogs from each.

PHChristy: and for bonus points, if he produced good toplines out of bitches who did not themselves have great toplines

PHChristy: Carloline, I think it is similar to the problem in breeds that have low numbers

PHChristy: Hi, FrogDog! Welcome to Dog Breeders Chat! Our topic tonight is "Evaluating Breedings"

cindy_nr: some of my litters with the correct size bitch have produced 7 pups

ccoile: wow

travlinpom_nr: cindy, you have Chis???

cindy_nr: yes

PHChristy: whenever you have few or no progeny to evaluate.... you are limited in how much you can conclude about the genotype of the stud

travlinpom_nr: cindy, how big are these bitches?

shadow_nr: hello

PHChristy: and have to fall back on looking at his littermates and other relatives, and at his phenotype

PHChristy: Hello shadow! Welcome to Dog Breeders Chat! Our topic tonight is "Evaluating Breedings"

shadow_nr: cool

PHChristy: I know a lot of oldtime breeders say "Breed the best to the best and hope for the best"

PHChristy: but I don't think that's a winning strategy

PHChristy: and I don't think that's how the great oldtime breeders REALLY did it

PHChristy: they might have SAID they did it

travlinpom_nr: I think that linebreeding makes a world of difference in what you can predict

PHChristy: but either consciously or unconsciously they were doing a lot more than just hoping!

shadow_nr: what does everyone have

cindy_nr: i think so too i keep all of mine in the same lines

PHChristy: I could have a great bitch and a great dog, maybe even "the best," but if they aren't suited to each other, it's not a good breeding

PHChristy: Shadow, I have Scottish Deerhounds

PHChristy: Hi, Morgan!

shadow_nr: nice

shadow_nr: hello morgan

PHChristy: Glad you made it, how's your girl?

travlinpom_nr: shadow, pomeranians here

shadow_nr: nice

ccoile: salukis

shadow_nr: I have a doberman

corgilover: Shadow: Pembroke Welsh Corgi

shadow_nr: nice

PHChristy: I think Morgan is only partially in the room

PHChristy: I don't think she can see what we type

corgilover: Shadow: Also German Shepard Dog

shadow_nr: I have a 80 pound doberman

travlinpom_nr: Christy, then we can keep talking about her?

shadow_nr: german shephers are big

ccoile: how does the age of the stud dog affect you rdecisions?

PHChristy: ROFL Pom

PHMorgan: AM I here?

PHChristy: Morgan! You're here!

shadow_nr: yeah

PHMorgan: OK good

FrogDog: I don't know what the tern is, but how reliable is it to breed based on not doubling up on faults....nice bitch, but lacks front angulation with a nice dog with great angulation, etc

cindy_nr: i recently lost a stud to old age and he was always the perfect stud never any surprises! I miss him so

PHMorgan: It's not 100% reliable

PHChristy: I like a somewhat older stud, but not so much for genotype/phenotype reasons... what specifically were you thinking about, Caroline?

PHMorgan: KEep in mind the simplest form of inheritance - you ONLY get 1/2 of each dog's genes

PHMorgan: So - 1/2 your pups are gonna have a lack of angulation

PHMorgan: The trick is to take steps TOWARDS a goal, not exect to get from A to Z in one leap

PHChristy: well, in theory... in reality in a given litter it could be any combination of traits

PHMorgan: It just doesn't happen

PHChristy: but I agree with that conclusion anyway

PHChristy: ooosp

PHMorgan: LOL

PHMorgan: And to choose from any given litter the pups that MOST meet the criteria you choose to breed from

FrogDog: but there's a good chance that there should be *improvement* in at least one (hopefully more) pups?

PHMorgan: When matching up FAULTS, it's VERY important to have a specific GOAL in mind so you can actually evaluate wha tyou got

ccoile: The trade-off between rushing to breed to the new exciting youngster but then he's not had tim eto prove himself, or to develop many hereditary diseases that might show up, but then if you wait too long you risk reduced fertility. Plus how long do you wait?

PHMorgan: FRog - yes, ideally

PHMorgan: BUT it's also a risk that you will get a litter of pups with Mom's front and dad's rear that don't move well at all

travlinpom_nr: Frog, its a roll of the dice . . . you have a 50/50 shot, but you may get everything or you may get nothing

PHChristy: Caroline, I'm currently leaning younger with the bitches, for their reproductive health, and hoping to find older, proven studs

PHMorgan: I would NEVER choose to combine two extremes and hope for the middle

PHMorgan: I will use an older stud - the largest risk is getting less, or NO puppies

PHChristy: but it's so hard to find a stud in my breed... that the pickier you get about them being proven or older or whatever, the harder it gets, to the point that sometimes it's impossible

PHChristy: instead of just hard

PHMorgan: A proven stud is pretty worthwhile, particularly if you have specific goals (e.g., you want heads and he has consistently produced them) and you can't do a ton of litters to get there

PHMorgan: There are usually compromises to be made for ANY litter

PHChristy: Hello Twyla! Welcome to Dog Breeders Chat! Our topic tonight is "Evaluating Breedings"

PHMorgan: You want the heads this particular dog produces. But dang it, half of his pups also have his crumby front

Twyla: Thank you..

PHMorgan: So you have to hope you get SOME pups with momdog's nice front, and the heads he produces and go from there

ccoile: here's another dilemma: popular studs are often popular because they are good. True, at some point it's not good for th ebreed for everyone to be sired by the same dog, but should you be the one to sacrifice breeding to him adn choose the not nearly as good second choice?

PHMorgan: And then you also have to be honest with the resulting pups and put the inferior ones into pet homes

cindy_nr: i have enjoyed everyones input but sorry to say i have to logg off and go to work

PHMorgan: sorry - pet homes meaning homes that will spay/neuter... LOL

PHChristy: Caroline, I think you SHOULD be the one to make the sacrifice

PHChristy: Goodnight Cindy!

PHMorgan: We ALL want our dogs in PET type homes

PHChristy: Hello Mowgli! Welcome to Dog Breeders Chat! Our topic tonight is "Evaluating Breedings"

PHChristy: Cindy, please come again next week!

cindy_nr: thank you christy i will see you next week

Twyla: I agree PHMorgan...

travlinpom_nr: "popular studs" in my breed are usually not the "best" studs, they are the ones with the most money behind them to campaign

PHMowgli: Hey guys \

PHChristy: I think that "popular sire syndrome" is the worst thing that can happen to a breed

PHMorgan: You are not making a sacrifice - you are creating a valuable gene pool separate from that dog which will be of use later

PHChristy: we have GOT to maintain our diversity of genes

PHChristy: Morgan, EXACTLY

PHMorgan: In essence, you are creating the RARE and valuable commodity of the next generation

ccoile: (I feel good now...)

PHChristy: LOL Caroline

PHChristy: in deerhounds we are seeing a new emerging genetic problem

Twyla: also, i think that the "one"popular std odg of any given era is what is resposible for fixing the genetics in any given breed

PHChristy: a health problem

PHMorgan: On the other hand, if Popular stud #1 has the traits YOU NEED, there is NOTHIGN wrong with using him, in my personal opinion

PHChristy: wouldn't it be wonderful if it turns out we have lines that are unaffected?

Twyla: pls excuse spelling tonite..hands are not good. sorry

ccoile: what is th eproblme?

PHChristy: but if all the lines are mushed together and there are no true outcrosses left... how can we escape things like this?

FrogDog: the front on the bitch is not poor...could just be better. the stud has a very nice front. Stud's second litter was just born yesterday, so we're just hoping he contributes at least some of his qualities. The bitch is very nice....not trying to breed a mediocre bitch in hopes of a top ranking pup :-)

PHChristy: Caroline, cystinuria

PHMorgan: Using him because he is #1 is just idiotic. NOT using him because he is #1 is also, IMO, not so bright, but using a related dog who produces similiar things might be brighter

PHChristy: or in the case of unproven studs, dogs who come from lines that produce similar things

PHChristy: but you can't just go to the dog's brother, it really has to be an unrelated dog

PHChristy: and that can be hard or even impossible sometimes

Twyla: and certain charachteristics are easier to breed out than others.

PHChristy: Twyla, what breed do you have and what traits do you find easiest to breed out?

PHMorgan: I think it takes some serious consultation of other breeders with EXPERIENCE to know how to proceed on certain breedings

PHMorgan: YOu need to pick some brains about what lines are producing WHAT TRAITS, whether they will mesh with your lines, what OTHER considerations you should know of....

Twyla: Cocker Spaniels....rough shoulders, top skull

PHMorgan: What do you mean by rough shoulders? Too far foward, too straight? Too short in blade?

PHChristy: In deerhounds shoulders are hard to fix, fronts in general are hard to fix. Heads are easier.

PHChristy: Hello myra! Welcome to Dog Breeders Chat! Our topic tonight is "Evaluating Breedings"

Twyla: but to try and corret a genetic bad bite is terribly difficult as is a poor rear

PHChristy: and rears are fairly easy to fix in deerhounds

travlinpom_nr: Christy, aame in poms, fronts are very hard to fix, heads are easier

Twyla: too straight

PHChristy: we don't have bite problems so I have no experience with that

FrogDog: certainly...have already done that, but we won't really know until the buns come out of the oven, so to speak.

PHMorgan: Rears are easier in pointers, as well. Fronts are hard

PHChristy: I'd rather fix just about aything besides a bad front

PHChristy: although I bet a lack of type is a bitch to fix

myra_nr: hello roomies

PHMorgan: Frog - but THAT is the time which is MOST important

myra_nr: am new here

PHMowgli: hi myra

PHChristy: The most recent issue of our breed magazine said that the average coefficient of inbreeding in Scottish Deerhounds, at ten generations, is around 20 percent.

myra_nr: ph hello

FrogDog: research? or waiting??

PHChristy: Myra, what breed do you have? :)

PHMorgan: I think it's REALLY helpful to WRITE Down what your specific goals are in every breeding, and measure each pup against those goals

myra_nr: ph, 3 dogs, 2 jrs and a bichon

PHMorgan: Once the pups arrive, it's important to see if you got what you planned on

Twyla: In years past, I have always held that "balance" is the key...you can have a not so great fron, but as long as the rear matches you can often get a fairly decent movemnet.

PHChristy: which they said is "above average for AKC breeds but not unusual for a breed with as small a population as the Scottish Deerhound."

FrogDog: gotcha!

PHChristy: I found that very interesting.

PHChristy: Twyla, I know people say that, but I have never been able to get on board with that one

PHMorgan: Twyla - I would agree with that

PHMorgan: But that doesn't mean you don't continue to breed for better angulation

PHChristy: I'd rather have a bitch with a great front and a crappy rear than a mediocre or poor front AND rear

PHMorgan: Just that you choose ONLY the pups that have better than the parents but ARE still balanced

PHMorgan: I disagree with that 100%, Christy

Twyla: If you have a wonderful driving rear and a poor front..well, you are going to get a dog that sidewinds terribly,

PHMorgan: Balance FIRST for me

PHMorgan: There is nothing to be gained with one end better than the other to any extreme

myra_nr: chris. have a trouble-some bichon

PHMorgan: The dog just won't be able to move

ccoile: I have a practical question. It is always said that you shoul dbreed to the best dog regardless of how much you hate th estud dog's owner. In theroy, I agree. But I wonder if this is a breed related thing. In salukis, and I presume other breeds with few litters, you pretty much marry the stud dog owner---th elitter is a co-production adn you are friends (or enemies) untile the last pup dies. How is it in breeds with more litters? How involved are stud owners? How important is it that you get along?

PHChristy: Morgan, but as a breeder, should be be caring that much about that particular dog, or about our breeding program in general?

Twyla: but..I have a breed that has terrible fronts overall, so perhaps in some ways it is a compromise

ccoile: I think Christy means for breedingpurposes. Withe bitch that is at least great in one part, you have th egentic potential to work with.

PHChristy: It's like that in Deerhounds too, Caroline. Nearly always.

PHMorgan: I would not use a stud dog whose owner I was unfriendly with, but this is a personal choice

PHMorgan: I disagree with Christy

PHMorgan: I woudl rather start with a mediocre but balanced animals

PHMorgan: Than an animal with only one good part

myra_nr: ok, ty for welcome, need some help see ya later

PHMorgan: I'm not saying that owuld be my FIRST choice, but given the TWO, I would go with balance.

myra_nr: trying to find jr chat

PHMorgan: I do NOT feel you can build adequately on a lack of balance

Twyla: I would only..ONLY ..use a dog from a person that I wasn't able to be friendly with IF I felt that the particular dog was a stud that I felt strongly about using

PHMorgan: But others disagree - which is what makes this fun

PHChristy: Yes, I can't see starting with mediocrity

PHChristy: and although technically a dog with a bad rear AND a bad front is "balanced," to me that's putting the cart before the horse

Twyla: IE...that the stud had a trait that I need and he was producing it with consistency

PHMorgan: I can't either, BUT, given only those two choices, I would go with balance

FrogDog: I chose one stud over another just because I didn't like the other stud's owner. It may sould silly, but the pups are their "babies", too. The owners of my girl's father is very involved in her life. I am not interested in a stud owner who just wants their money and has no interest in their puppies.

PHMorgan: I certainly owuldn't go seeking a mediocre animal for breeding

PHMorgan: Here's an example, that might make sense

PHMorgan: I began my breeding program with 2 bitches.

PHChristy: Frog, I agree

PHMorgan: One had perfect breed type, but was not angulated enough. Not enough substance, but beautifully balanced and sound moving. This bitch was never finished in teh show ring

PHMorgan: The secong bitch finished easily, has an outstanding front and a mediocre rear. A litter-sister of hers (not mine) is built identically

PHMorgan: I didn't breed this second bitch, but I did breed the first, and the second's simliar littermate was bred to an animal not far removed from teh stud I used on my FIRSt bitch

PHMorgan: Still with me on this? LOL

PHChristy: yes

PHMorgan: The pups I got from my first, mediocrely constructed but balanced bitch were FAR better than the pups from the good fronted but NOT so balanced bitch

PHChristy: just waiting to see how it all comes out

PHMorgan: ALL my pups were balanced and moved soundly

PHMorgan: Some were more like mom, but all were balanced and moved

PHChristy: Morgan, I can see that BUT.... one swallow does not a summer make.... you can't exptrapolate that will always happen.

PHMorgan: ONly about 1/2 of the pups from the other bitch were sound

PHMorgan: The rest were unsound and painful to watch

Twyla: I had a nice bithc and the stud I wanted for her was producing lovely typey get, but I didn;t care for the owner, and conversly, she didn't care much for her dogs. so I used the stud, the owner of the stud couldn't have cared less...BUT I DID..

PHChristy: becasue your going on phenotype and what counts is genotype

PHMorgan: Christie - I have seen this CONSISTENTLY in my breed

PHChristy: Twyla... I understand perfectly what you're saying

PHMorgan: you breed unbalanced animals and get unbalanced animals

PHChristy: even so, Morgan, it's still a function of genotype

PHMorgan: They might be pretty, but they aren't SOUND

Twyla: Yes ..I understand PHMOrgan

PHChristy: I have NOT seen it in deerhounds

PHMorgan: How unsound is most of your breed?

PHChristy: not just in my own breedings, but others.... I've seen bad fronts persist and persist, generation after generation

PHMorgan: (honest question - there are a TON of unsound dogS IN MY breed)

PHMorgan: I have seen this too, but were the dogs SOUND

PHChristy: Soundness is not a huge problem in deerhounds

PHChristy: Define "sound"

PHChristy: do you just mean north/south feet?

PHMorgan: Moved cleanly without sidewinding, hackneying, shuffling, overreaching or short-stepping

PHChristy: I'm talking about the whole construction of the front, upper arms, shoulders, front movement (not just which way the toes point)

PHMorgan: EFFICIENT

PHChristy: OK, yes, it seems to me in my breed that bad fronts persist generation after generation

PHMorgan: OK - perhaps one thing has not been defined - I would NEVER breed an animal whose movement was not clean

PHChristy: and are almost impossible to get rid of

ccoile: It'sa sighthound thing

travlinpom_nr: Maybe i am misunderstanding, but if i see a "bad" front, i see that as "unsound"

PHMorgan: I think the word bad is not clear enough between us

PHMorgan: For me, bad means UNSOUND moving

PHChristy: A "bad front" for me is one that is not constructed correctly in any part of the skeletal structure

PHMorgan: Not necessarily straight or short or whatever

FrogDog: Twyla - That's not to say that the stud of an impersonable owner should never be used...just that if the owner of the bitch is wanting to be able to keep the stud owner updated on the progress of his/her pups, that the stud owner could be a consideration in whether or not a particular stud is used

PHChristy: and a bad front CANNOT move correctly

PHMorgan: My morgan is too straight in front. She does not move unsoundly

PHChristy: and a sighthound with a bad front is functionally useless

PHMorgan: I see the straight front as a fault, but not so bad that it cannot be improved upon'

PHChristy: a deerhound with a straight front can't move correctly

PHChristy: well, I've certainly seen it improved on in my breed, it's just hard

PHMorgan: She could be more efficient, but she can move without getting in her own way

PHChristy: and those bad fronts come back to haunt you

FrogDog: so, a *somewhat* straight front is not necessarily a "bad" front?

PHMorgan: Ok - this is very circular

PHMorgan: That is MY meaning

ccoile: what do you do if the stud owner you don;t like wants a stud fee puppy? or if you don;t approv