|
|
|
| |
auctions - advertising rates -
site news -
help -
contact
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
| |
|
auctions - advertising rates -
site news -
help -
contact
| |
|
|
Transcript: Dog Breeding Chat Tuesday, February 24, 2004: Evaluating Breedings PHChristy: Hello everyone! Hey there Caroline! It's Christie! ccoile: Hey! PHChristy: How are you doing? Welcome to Dog Breeding Chat! ccoile: wait a minute--you have a cool deerhound icon... PHChristy: LOL, would you like me to make a Saluki one? ccoile: if it's my saluki... PHChristy: I shamelessly exploited my position to make an icon of my own dog PHChristy: I am a bad person ccoile: but of course you should have a sluki one. PHFlea: Hi Christy!! Sorry was doing a few things, just walked in the door PHChristy: Hi, Flea! PHChristy: PHMorgan phoned me and she will be late as she is dealling with some bitch issues tonight PHChristy: Hello corgilover! Welcome to Dog Breeding Chat! PHFlea: Hi Corgi!! corgilover: Hi everyone PHChristy: Her bitch is due to whelp in about a week and has gone on a hunger strike PHFlea: Oh boy..... PHChristy: and as many times as we see that happen, of course every time it's an emergency PHChristy: Caroline, if you send me a nice headshot of one of your dogs, I'll be glad to make it into an icon for you PHFlea: Will she lap up some chicken broth??
ccoile: OK...
PHChristy: Flea, I think that Morgan was at the "handfeeding gourmet goat cheese" stage
PHFlea: She can come and handfeed me some "gourmet goat cheese".......lolol
PHChristy: it's not uncommon for bitches to stop eating before they whelp, although some eat between puppies, LOL
PHChristy: mine can usually only eat very tiny meals when they get close
ccoile: My dogs often eat that roll food when they will eat nothing else--they prefer it over real meat.
PHChristy: I've been mostly lucky, I've only had one dog who was a hard keeper
PHChristy: he would always eat eggs scrambled with Parmesan cheese
PHChristy: which amazingly, you CAN live on PHFlea: I posted a news article in dogs you all might be interested in....about a gag breeder giving males viagra
PHChristy: a gag breeder?
PHFlea: I chose the word gag instead of the real word I wanted to say
PHChristy: LOL
PHChristy: Hello PoLow! Welcome to Dog Breeders Chat! Our topic tonight is "Evaluating Breedings"
PHFlea: they confiscated aprox 100 dogs
PHChristy: oh man
PHFlea: Hi PoLow
PHChristy: why on EARTH would he give a dog viagra???
PoLow_nr: Hello and Thank you
PHChristy: don't answer that
PHChristy: PoLow, how are you doing tonight?
PHFlea: Christy.....just read the article it's beyond belief
PoLow_nr: Fine thank you.......looking forward to this subject!
PHChristy: Tonight we're going to be discussing how we evaluate breedings.... looking at potential studs for their ability to bring desired traits into our breeding programs
PHChristy: and to address weaknesses in our bitches
PHChristy: well, other people's bitches, as all OUR bitches are, of course, perfect
PHChristy: this is totally hypothetical
PHChristy: Hello IrishSttr! Welcome to Dog Breeders Chat! Our topic tonight is "Evaluating Breedings"
PHChristy: I was just making a small joke that everyone at this chat has perfect bitches with no faults to correct
PHChristy: but no one laughed so I guess it was a VERY VERY small joke PoLow_nr: and I was lol........but forgot to tell you!
ccoile: I admit...I have an ulterior motive for being here. (don;t I always?)
ccoile: oh--hahahaha
PHChristy: Caroline, what's that??
PHFlea: Christy I was thinking you were giving me a compliment.......lololol
PHChristy: ROFL
IrishSttr_nr: I was just curious about something and was hoping that the answer might be mentioned here
ccoile: I'm in th emiddle of an rticle for Dog Woeld on "Selecting a Stud Dog"
PHChristy: Hello Cindy! Welcome to Dog Breeders Chat! Our topic tonight is "Evaluating Breedings"
ccoile: I need a few quotes!
PHChristy: Caroline, what great timing!
cindy_nr: thank you
PHFlea: Oh sneaky sneaky Caroline.......
PHChristy: I think that the basics are very different for those in breeds with large numbers.
ccoile: so if anybody says anything particularly stunning I may be asking your permission to quote you!
PHChristy: Hello Trav! Welcome to Dog Breeders Chat! Our topic tonight is "Evaluating Breedings"
PHChristy: Caroline, sounds good, I will try to be profound. ccoile: Yes, do be profound please.
PHChristy: With breeds that have large numbers, I think that evaluating the stud dog's progeny is essential.
PHChristy: For those of us in breeds with small numbers, that's rarely possible.
PHChristy: Studs often only sire a single litter, even studs of good quality and accomplishments.
IrishSttr_nr: why is that do you suppose?
PHChristy: For us, we have to rely more on evaluating the littermates of the stud, and their progeny if any
PHChristy: and on pedigree analysis
PHChristy: and of course, on phenotype, the actual physical "look" of the dog himself (and his other traits(
PHChristy: Irish, simply because there is very little breeding in some breeds
PHChristy: in breeds with very low numbers, there mightr be only a handlful of litters in a year
ccoile: The small number of litters sired reflects in part just the smaller number of bitches bred, plus bitch owners breeding to their own studs because otherwsie that male's line mught go extinct. Plus in some breeds, at least in mine, there is a stigma attached to using your stud too often
travlinpom_nr: and many of us dont stand our boys at stud
IrishSttr_nr: oh, I see
PHChristy: For instance, if your breed is Dobermans, you won't have trouble finding any number of stud dogs who have sired many litters, and can evaluate their offspring accordingly. You may even be able to find bitches related to your bitch, and evaluate how they produced when bred to that stud.
PHChristy: Caroline, and really, that's a GOOD stigma!
PHChristy: Especially in breeds with small numbers, we run a grave risk of having a bunch of lines that are all pretty well interrelated, and losing all hope of diversity in our gene pool
cindy_nr: glad to know i done that part right!
PHChristy: "Popular sire" syndrome is often seen as a curse of more popular breeds....
ccoile: When i had a "popular" (haha) stud, I limited him to one breeding a year
PHChristy: but it can destory breeds that have small numbers
PHChristy: Caroline, and I'm sure there are those who said even that was too much!
PHChristy: Hello dlcarr! Welcome to Dog Breeders Chat! Our topic tonight is "Evaluating Breedings"
PHChristy: Cindy, can you say more about what you did right?
PHChristy: I'd also love to know what breeds people have, if it's not already in your username. I have Scottish Deerhounds.
PHChristy: Hello, hildiesmom! Welcome to Dog Breeders Chat! Our topic tonight is "Evaluating Breedings"
cindy_nr: i reasearched the females in the same line from different sires
PHChristy: Cindy, what breed?
cindy_nr: then i reasearched the offspring and was able to see
IrishSttr_nr: we've got a pregnant Silky Terrier...though the long-term goal is to breed Setters
travlinpom_nr: Pomeranians here, and the picture on my avatar is my top stud dog "Asa"
hildiesmom: Hi. I have standard smooth dachshunds...
cindy_nr: each one as the breeder had carefully kept the lines distinct
ccoile: salukis
PHChristy: Cindy, that's good, I think it does make the guesswork less
PoLow_nr: Polish Lowland Sheepdogs :)
PHChristy: I envy people who have that kind of information available to them!
cindy_nr: iam just a hobby breeder and breed for the love of doing it right not selling the puppies
PHChristy: :)
PHChristy: don't say "just" a hobby breeder
PHChristy: Me, I just breed to lose money. cindy_nr: i have chihuahuas and just love the breed
travlinpom_nr: LOL, yep, losing money in a BIG way!!
PHChristy: So, I did want to say that evaluating a stud dog by phenotype is not useless.
PHChristy: If you have a bitch with an overarched topline, you want to find a stud dog with a correct topline.
PHChristy: And he should also come from lines that tend to have correct toplines
PHChristy: and ideally, moving beyond phenotype alone, you'd want to see if he produced offspring with correct topline
ccoile: how do you think litter size affects your ability to evaluate a stud? I meanm with Chi small litters, you get to see moreliters I guess, but few dogs from each.
PHChristy: and for bonus points, if he produced good toplines out of bitches who did not themselves have great toplines
PHChristy: Carloline, I think it is similar to the problem in breeds that have low numbers
PHChristy: Hi, FrogDog! Welcome to Dog Breeders Chat! Our topic tonight is "Evaluating Breedings"
cindy_nr: some of my litters with the correct size bitch have produced 7 pups
ccoile: wow
travlinpom_nr: cindy, you have Chis???
cindy_nr: yes
PHChristy: whenever you have few or no progeny to evaluate.... you are limited in how much you can conclude about the genotype of the stud
travlinpom_nr: cindy, how big are these bitches?
shadow_nr: hello
PHChristy: and have to fall back on looking at his littermates and other relatives, and at his phenotype
PHChristy: Hello shadow! Welcome to Dog Breeders Chat! Our topic tonight is "Evaluating Breedings"
shadow_nr: cool
PHChristy: I know a lot of oldtime breeders say "Breed the best to the best and hope for the best"
PHChristy: but I don't think that's a winning strategy
PHChristy: and I don't think that's how the great oldtime breeders REALLY did it
PHChristy: they might have SAID they did it
travlinpom_nr: I think that linebreeding makes a world of difference in what you can predict
PHChristy: but either consciously or unconsciously they were doing a lot more than just hoping!
shadow_nr: what does everyone have
cindy_nr: i think so too i keep all of mine in the same lines
PHChristy: I could have a great bitch and a great dog, maybe even "the best," but if they aren't suited to each other, it's not a good breeding
PHChristy: Shadow, I have Scottish Deerhounds
PHChristy: Hi, Morgan!
shadow_nr: nice
shadow_nr: hello morgan
PHChristy: Glad you made it, how's your girl?
travlinpom_nr: shadow, pomeranians here
shadow_nr: nice
ccoile: salukis
shadow_nr: I have a doberman
corgilover: Shadow: Pembroke Welsh Corgi
shadow_nr: nice
PHChristy: I think Morgan is only partially in the room
PHChristy: I don't think she can see what we type
corgilover: Shadow: Also German Shepard Dog
shadow_nr: I have a 80 pound doberman
travlinpom_nr: Christy, then we can keep talking about her?
shadow_nr: german shephers are big
ccoile: how does the age of the stud dog affect you rdecisions?
PHChristy: ROFL Pom
PHMorgan: AM I here?
PHChristy: Morgan! You're here!
shadow_nr: yeah
PHMorgan: OK good
FrogDog: I don't know what the tern is, but how reliable is it to breed based on not doubling up on faults....nice bitch, but lacks front angulation with a nice dog with great angulation, etc
cindy_nr: i recently lost a stud to old age and he was always the perfect stud never any surprises! I miss him so
PHMorgan: It's not 100% reliable
PHChristy: I like a somewhat older stud, but not so much for genotype/phenotype reasons... what specifically were you thinking about, Caroline?
PHMorgan: KEep in mind the simplest form of inheritance - you ONLY get 1/2 of each dog's genes
PHMorgan: So - 1/2 your pups are gonna have a lack of angulation
PHMorgan: The trick is to take steps TOWARDS a goal, not exect to get from A to Z in one leap
PHChristy: well, in theory... in reality in a given litter it could be any combination of traits
PHMorgan: It just doesn't happen
PHChristy: but I agree with that conclusion anyway PHChristy: ooosp
PHMorgan: LOL
PHMorgan: And to choose from any given litter the pups that MOST meet the criteria you choose to breed from
FrogDog: but there's a good chance that there should be *improvement* in at least one (hopefully more) pups?
PHMorgan: When matching up FAULTS, it's VERY important to have a specific GOAL in mind so you can actually evaluate wha tyou got
ccoile: The trade-off between rushing to breed to the new exciting youngster but then he's not had tim eto prove himself, or to develop many hereditary diseases that might show up, but then if you wait too long you risk reduced fertility. Plus how long do you wait?
PHMorgan: FRog - yes, ideally
PHMorgan: BUT it's also a risk that you will get a litter of pups with Mom's front and dad's rear that don't move well at all
travlinpom_nr: Frog, its a roll of the dice . . . you have a 50/50 shot, but you may get everything or you may get nothing
PHChristy: Caroline, I'm currently leaning younger with the bitches, for their reproductive health, and hoping to find older, proven studs
PHMorgan: I would NEVER choose to combine two extremes and hope for the middle
PHMorgan: I will use an older stud - the largest risk is getting less, or NO puppies
PHChristy: but it's so hard to find a stud in my breed... that the pickier you get about them being proven or older or whatever, the harder it gets, to the point that sometimes it's impossible
PHChristy: instead of just hard
PHMorgan: A proven stud is pretty worthwhile, particularly if you have specific goals (e.g., you want heads and he has consistently produced them) and you can't do a ton of litters to get there
PHMorgan: There are usually compromises to be made for ANY litter
PHChristy: Hello Twyla! Welcome to Dog Breeders Chat! Our topic tonight is "Evaluating Breedings"
PHMorgan: You want the heads this particular dog produces. But dang it, half of his pups also have his crumby front
Twyla: Thank you..
PHMorgan: So you have to hope you get SOME pups with momdog's nice front, and the heads he produces and go from there
ccoile: here's another dilemma: popular studs are often popular because they are good. True, at some point it's not good for th ebreed for everyone to be sired by the same dog, but should you be the one to sacrifice breeding to him adn choose the not nearly as good second choice?
PHMorgan: And then you also have to be honest with the resulting pups and put the inferior ones into pet homes
cindy_nr: i have enjoyed everyones input but sorry to say i have to logg off and go to work
PHMorgan: sorry - pet homes meaning homes that will spay/neuter... LOL
PHChristy: Caroline, I think you SHOULD be the one to make the sacrifice
PHChristy: Goodnight Cindy!
PHMorgan: We ALL want our dogs in PET type homes
PHChristy: Hello Mowgli! Welcome to Dog Breeders Chat! Our topic tonight is "Evaluating Breedings"
PHChristy: Cindy, please come again next week!
cindy_nr: thank you christy i will see you next week
Twyla: I agree PHMorgan...
travlinpom_nr: "popular studs" in my breed are usually not the "best" studs, they are the ones with the most money behind them to campaign
PHMowgli: Hey guys \
PHChristy: I think that "popular sire syndrome" is the worst thing that can happen to a breed
PHMorgan: You are not making a sacrifice - you are creating a valuable gene pool separate from that dog which will be of use later
PHChristy: we have GOT to maintain our diversity of genes
PHChristy: Morgan, EXACTLY
PHMorgan: In essence, you are creating the RARE and valuable commodity of the next generation
ccoile: (I feel good now...)
PHChristy: LOL Caroline
PHChristy: in deerhounds we are seeing a new emerging genetic problem
Twyla: also, i think that the "one"popular std odg of any given era is what is resposible for fixing the genetics in any given breed
PHChristy: a health problem
PHMorgan: On the other hand, if Popular stud #1 has the traits YOU NEED, there is NOTHIGN wrong with using him, in my personal opinion
PHChristy: wouldn't it be wonderful if it turns out we have lines that are unaffected?
Twyla: pls excuse spelling tonite..hands are not good. sorry
ccoile: what is th eproblme?
PHChristy: but if all the lines are mushed together and there are no true outcrosses left... how can we escape things like this?
FrogDog: the front on the bitch is not poor...could just be better. the stud has a very nice front. Stud's second litter was just born yesterday, so we're just hoping he contributes at least some of his qualities. The bitch is very nice....not trying to breed a mediocre bitch in hopes of a top ranking pup :-)
PHChristy: Caroline, cystinuria
PHMorgan: Using him because he is #1 is just idiotic. NOT using him because he is #1 is also, IMO, not so bright, but using a related dog who produces similiar things might be brighter
PHChristy: or in the case of unproven studs, dogs who come from lines that produce similar things
PHChristy: but you can't just go to the dog's brother, it really has to be an unrelated dog
PHChristy: and that can be hard or even impossible sometimes
Twyla: and certain charachteristics are easier to breed out than others.
PHChristy: Twyla, what breed do you have and what traits do you find easiest to breed out?
PHMorgan: I think it takes some serious consultation of other breeders with EXPERIENCE to know how to proceed on certain breedings
PHMorgan: YOu need to pick some brains about what lines are producing WHAT TRAITS, whether they will mesh with your lines, what OTHER considerations you should know of....
Twyla: Cocker Spaniels....rough shoulders, top skull
PHMorgan: What do you mean by rough shoulders? Too far foward, too straight? Too short in blade?
PHChristy: In deerhounds shoulders are hard to fix, fronts in general are hard to fix. Heads are easier.
PHChristy: Hello myra! Welcome to Dog Breeders Chat! Our topic tonight is "Evaluating Breedings"
Twyla: but to try and corret a genetic bad bite is terribly difficult as is a poor rear
PHChristy: and rears are fairly easy to fix in deerhounds
travlinpom_nr: Christy, aame in poms, fronts are very hard to fix, heads are easier
Twyla: too straight
PHChristy: we don't have bite problems so I have no experience with that
FrogDog: certainly...have already done that, but we won't really know until the buns come out of the oven, so to speak.
PHMorgan: Rears are easier in pointers, as well. Fronts are hard
PHChristy: I'd rather fix just about aything besides a bad front
PHChristy: although I bet a lack of type is a bitch to fix myra_nr: hello roomies
PHMorgan: Frog - but THAT is the time which is MOST important
myra_nr: am new here
PHMowgli: hi myra
PHChristy: The most recent issue of our breed magazine said that the average coefficient of inbreeding in Scottish Deerhounds, at ten generations, is around 20 percent.
myra_nr: ph hello
FrogDog: research? or waiting??
PHChristy: Myra, what breed do you have? :)
PHMorgan: I think it's REALLY helpful to WRITE Down what your specific goals are in every breeding, and measure each pup against those goals
myra_nr: ph, 3 dogs, 2 jrs and a bichon
PHMorgan: Once the pups arrive, it's important to see if you got what you planned on
Twyla: In years past, I have always held that "balance" is the key...you can have a not so great fron, but as long as the rear matches you can often get a fairly decent movemnet.
PHChristy: which they said is "above average for AKC breeds but not unusual for a breed with as small a population as the Scottish Deerhound."
FrogDog: gotcha!
PHChristy: I found that very interesting.
PHChristy: Twyla, I know people say that, but I have never been able to get on board with that one
PHMorgan: Twyla - I would agree with that
PHMorgan: But that doesn't mean you don't continue to breed for better angulation
PHChristy: I'd rather have a bitch with a great front and a crappy rear than a mediocre or poor front AND rear
PHMorgan: Just that you choose ONLY the pups that have better than the parents but ARE still balanced
PHMorgan: I disagree with that 100%, Christy
Twyla: If you have a wonderful driving rear and a poor front..well, you are going to get a dog that sidewinds terribly,
PHMorgan: Balance FIRST for me
PHMorgan: There is nothing to be gained with one end better than the other to any extreme
myra_nr: chris. have a trouble-some bichon
PHMorgan: The dog just won't be able to move
ccoile: I have a practical question. It is always said that you shoul dbreed to the best dog regardless of how much you hate th estud dog's owner. In theroy, I agree. But I wonder if this is a breed related thing. In salukis, and I presume other breeds with few litters, you pretty much marry the stud dog owner---th elitter is a co-production adn you are friends (or enemies) untile the last pup dies. How is it in breeds with more litters? How involved are stud owners? How important is it that you get along?
PHChristy: Morgan, but as a breeder, should be be caring that much about that particular dog, or about our breeding program in general?
Twyla: but..I have a breed that has terrible fronts overall, so perhaps in some ways it is a compromise
ccoile: I think Christy means for breedingpurposes. Withe bitch that is at least great in one part, you have th egentic potential to work with.
PHChristy: It's like that in Deerhounds too, Caroline. Nearly always.
PHMorgan: I would not use a stud dog whose owner I was unfriendly with, but this is a personal choice
PHMorgan: I disagree with Christy
PHMorgan: I woudl rather start with a mediocre but balanced animals
PHMorgan: Than an animal with only one good part
myra_nr: ok, ty for welcome, need some help see ya later
PHMorgan: I'm not saying that owuld be my FIRST choice, but given the TWO, I would go with balance.
myra_nr: trying to find jr chat
PHMorgan: I do NOT feel you can build adequately on a lack of balance
Twyla: I would only..ONLY ..use a dog from a person that I wasn't able to be friendly with IF I felt that the particular dog was a stud that I felt strongly about using
PHMorgan: But others disagree - which is what makes this fun
PHChristy: Yes, I can't see starting with mediocrity
PHChristy: and although technically a dog with a bad rear AND a bad front is "balanced," to me that's putting the cart before the horse
Twyla: IE...that the stud had a trait that I need and he was producing it with consistency
PHMorgan: I can't either, BUT, given only those two choices, I would go with balance
FrogDog: I chose one stud over another just because I didn't like the other stud's owner. It may sould silly, but the pups are their "babies", too. The owners of my girl's father is very involved in her life. I am not interested in a stud owner who just wants their money and has no interest in their puppies.
PHMorgan: I certainly owuldn't go seeking a mediocre animal for breeding
PHMorgan: Here's an example, that might make sense
PHMorgan: I began my breeding program with 2 bitches.
PHChristy: Frog, I agree
PHMorgan: One had perfect breed type, but was not angulated enough. Not enough substance, but beautifully balanced and sound moving. This bitch was never finished in teh show ring
PHMorgan: The secong bitch finished easily, has an outstanding front and a mediocre rear. A litter-sister of hers (not mine) is built identically
PHMorgan: I didn't breed this second bitch, but I did breed the first, and the second's simliar littermate was bred to an animal not far removed from teh stud I used on my FIRSt bitch
PHMorgan: Still with me on this? LOL
PHChristy: yes PHMorgan: The pups I got from my first, mediocrely constructed but balanced bitch were FAR better than the pups from the good fronted but NOT so balanced bitch
PHChristy: just waiting to see how it all comes out
PHMorgan: ALL my pups were balanced and moved soundly
PHMorgan: Some were more like mom, but all were balanced and moved
PHChristy: Morgan, I can see that BUT.... one swallow does not a summer make.... you can't exptrapolate that will always happen.
PHMorgan: ONly about 1/2 of the pups from the other bitch were sound
PHMorgan: The rest were unsound and painful to watch
Twyla: I had a nice bithc and the stud I wanted for her was producing lovely typey get, but I didn;t care for the owner, and conversly, she didn't care much for her dogs. so I used the stud, the owner of the stud couldn't have cared less...BUT I DID..
PHChristy: becasue your going on phenotype and what counts is genotype
PHMorgan: Christie - I have seen this CONSISTENTLY in my breed
PHChristy: Twyla... I understand perfectly what you're saying
PHMorgan: you breed unbalanced animals and get unbalanced animals
PHChristy: even so, Morgan, it's still a function of genotype
PHMorgan: They might be pretty, but they aren't SOUND
Twyla: Yes ..I understand PHMOrgan
PHChristy: I have NOT seen it in deerhounds
PHMorgan: How unsound is most of your breed?
PHChristy: not just in my own breedings, but others.... I've seen bad fronts persist and persist, generation after generation
PHMorgan: (honest question - there are a TON of unsound dogS IN MY breed)
PHMorgan: I have seen this too, but were the dogs SOUND
PHChristy: Soundness is not a huge problem in deerhounds
PHChristy: Define "sound"
PHChristy: do you just mean north/south feet?
PHMorgan: Moved cleanly without sidewinding, hackneying, shuffling, overreaching or short-stepping
PHChristy: I'm talking about the whole construction of the front, upper arms, shoulders, front movement (not just which way the toes point)
PHMorgan: EFFICIENT
PHChristy: OK, yes, it seems to me in my breed that bad fronts persist generation after generation
PHMorgan: OK - perhaps one thing has not been defined - I would NEVER breed an animal whose movement was not clean
PHChristy: and are almost impossible to get rid of
ccoile: It'sa sighthound thing
travlinpom_nr: Maybe i am misunderstanding, but if i see a "bad" front, i see that as "unsound"
PHMorgan: I think the word bad is not clear enough between us
PHMorgan: For me, bad means UNSOUND moving
PHChristy: A "bad front" for me is one that is not constructed correctly in any part of the skeletal structure
PHMorgan: Not necessarily straight or short or whatever
FrogDog: Twyla - That's not to say that the stud of an impersonable owner should never be used...just that if the owner of the bitch is wanting to be able to keep the stud owner updated on the progress of his/her pups, that the stud owner could be a consideration in whether or not a particular stud is used
PHChristy: and a bad front CANNOT move correctly
PHMorgan: My morgan is too straight in front. She does not move unsoundly
PHChristy: and a sighthound with a bad front is functionally useless
PHMorgan: I see the straight front as a fault, but not so bad that it cannot be improved upon'
PHChristy: a deerhound with a straight front can't move correctly
PHChristy: well, I've certainly seen it improved on in my breed, it's just hard
PHMorgan: She could be more efficient, but she can move without getting in her own way
PHChristy: and those bad fronts come back to haunt you
FrogDog: so, a *somewhat* straight front is not necessarily a "bad" front?
PHMorgan: Ok - this is very circular
PHMorgan: That is MY meaning
ccoile: what do you do if the stud owner you don;t like wants a stud fee puppy? or if you don;t approv
|
