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Transcript: Dog Breeding Chat Tuesday, Jan. 11, 2005: Genetic Breakthroughs: What's Happening in YOUR Breed? PHChristy: Welcome to Dog Breeding Chat! Our topic tonight is "Genetic Breakthroughs - what's happening in YOUR breed?" PHChristy: I will say that i know there is tremendous interest in the osteosarcoma research in Scottish Deerhounds, as I've gotten a lot of email replies to the chat announcement PHChristy: I was very excited at the deerhound national to hear how close we are with osteo.... PHChristy: I think that being able to test a dog to KNOW if they are carrying a trait for a disease or condition that kills dogs.... PHMorgan: So what is going on with Osteosarcoma research, Christy? And pease tell us first what it IS? PHChristy: is probably the best thing that can happen for anyone who really loves a breed PHMorgan: that's pLease PHChristy: Morgan, osteosarcoma is bone cancer PHChristy: according to the SDCA website, it's the leading cause of death of female deerhounds PHMorgan: Wow - I had no clue PHChristy: and afflicts 5 percent of the dogs in our breed. travlinpom_nr: Unfortunately, we still havent found a marker for BSD and it doesnt look like it will come anytime soon PHChristy: The Scottish Deerhound Club of America supported, financially and otherwise, a ten year study aimed at determining the mode of inheritance PHMorgan: Trav - what's BSD? nimloth_nr: If it is the leading cause of death in females, but only affects 5% of the breed, then less than 10% of deerhounds are female???? PHMorgan: ONe of the MOST important parts of genetic research is BREEDER PARTICIPATION. PHChristy: with matching funds this year from the AKC Health Foundation, we were told that a genetic marker has been found, and a test for our breeding stock should be available within ayear travlinpom_nr: Morgan, Black Skin Disease . . . very generic term for hair loss PHChristy: nimloth..... no. That doesn't follow PHMorgan: There can be no testing, studies or cures without dogs to provide material for research. WE all have to participate PHChristy: nimloth.... you could have forty other things at 4 percent, and osteo is still the LEADING cause of death Mousekiller: what kind of testing? PHChristy: because everything else is less nimloth_nr: Yes... but it is still hard to believe that is the leading cause of death if it only affects 5% of the population PHMorgan: Mouse - it looks like it's going to be a DNA test PHChristy: nimloth, leading cause in bitches. Bitches get it two hundred fifty percent more than dogs travlinpom_nr: Morgan, quite a few breeders are participating in the study of BSD, but so far, doesnt seem to be making much progress PHChristy: the osteosarcoma test will be a simple blood test, I believe PHChristy: possibly cheek swab, but I don't know PHChristy: trav, it took us ten years on osteosarcoma Mousekiller: TO tell you the truth, I have never even heard of a scottish deer hound... But good luck with that nimloth_nr: Interesting. Do they feel that is because of the genetics or the hormones? PHMorgan: Christy - how many breeders participated in the studies? PHChristy: thanks Mousekiller... and it's Scottish Deerhound PHChristy: nimloth, I dont' know the answer to that! Mousekiller: DO you run deer with them??? travlinpom_nr: Christy, we have been at it that long too . . . oh well Moo: Hi everybody PHChristy: Trav, I'm sorry to hear that :( nimloth_nr: I mean, it may be so much more prevalent in females because it is estrogen sensitive PHChristy: Mousekiller, it's illegal to course antlered game with dogs in the United States nimloth_nr: Their particular type, that is Mousekiller: Not everywhere PHChristy: nimloth, yes, I agree... PHMorgan: Well, now that they are approaching a test for osteosarcoma, maybe they CAN see if it is hormone linked Rouen: scottish deerhound http://dogbreedinfo.com/scottishdeerhound.htm nimloth_nr: I charted 10 years of PRA data from CERF records in Labradors and found that the incidence is almost double in males. PHChristy: the test will only tell if the dog is carrying the genetic marker, not if they will get osteosarcoma Moo: Hi Mow PHChristy: it will enable us to prevent conceiving litters that will get it PHMowgli: hi everyone PHMorgan: That is GREAT PHChristy: but won't tell us anything about the dogs already alive, as to whether they will get it or not Mousekiller: You can still run deer in LA PHChristy: Mousekiller, not with coursing hounds PHChristy: it's against federal law Rouen: hi mow PHMowgli: right we are working on a DNA test for CEA and PRA for shelties and collies PHChristy: you are thinking of using dogs to HUNT and TRACK deer nimloth_nr: Again, we don't know if that is a genetic factor or hormonally related - testosterone mediated PHChristy: coursing means the dogs catch and KILL the deer, which is illegal RedyreRotties: hi everyone. :D PHChristy: Mowgli, how close are you? Rouen: hi rotties PHMowgli: christy hopefylly by end of yr they are saying Moo: Full house on breeding nights, never knew what went on without me ;) PHMowgli: they have located the markers now it is just getting the test ready and available PHChristy: Mowgli, that's exceptional. Do you know the mode of inheritance? RedyreRotties: I think there is a study going on in my breed to determine the mode(s) of inheritance of SubAortic Stenosis, and to try to find a marker. PHChristy: That's where we are with osteo, we've found the marker and they're developing the test PHChristy: Redrye, how common is that in Rotties? nimloth_nr: In Labs, we have a pretty good test for PRA. A lot of breeders are getting dogs tested. HOwever, there was a discussion today on one of hte lists about how breeders are USING the test. RedyreRotties: Christy for osteosarcoma? PHChristy: Redrye, yes! RedyreRotties: Christy, common enough that we all (or all should) heart clear dogs before breeding. PHChristy: nimloth... how are they? PHMowgli: ok mind quit opposite of polygenic RedyreRotties: OMG that is wonderful, that is common in my breed, I lost my old girl to it. Mousekiller: thanks for the link... interesting dog PHMowgli: parents must be either affected or carriers to pass it on christy too bad my mind quit LOL nimloth_nr: Well, even though the test would allow people to breed excellent dogs that are carriers safely, so many are opting to "throw the baby out with the bathwater" PHChristy: Red, it will enable them to check other breeds quickly, to see if they have the same genetic marker. If so, then a test can quickly be developed for other breeds PHChristy: nimloth, yes!!!!!!!!!! especially in a breed with tiny numbers like in deerhounds, we can't afford to do that PHChristy: that's why this test could be so valuable PHMorgan: That woudl be very useful, Christy RedyreRotties: Christy, is this testing for a genetic tendency towards OS? PHChristy: because we can keep dogs in our breeding pool who are carriers, just not breed them in ways that would produce it PHChristy: Redrye, yes PHMorgan: I'm anxious to see how long it takes for them to develop the Epilepsy test, now that they have isolated a gene known to cause one form of it PHChristy: they have identifed a genetic marker in deerhounds, after a ten year study RedyreRotties: Morgan, I saw that come across my mailing lists recently. Great hope there. nimloth_nr: Labs are a high-number breed, so excluding any one dog is not a problem, but limiting whole LINES and their qualities may become an issue PHChristy: Morgan, given the funding, I think identifying the marker to a test is usually about a year wiches_nr: Nowich suffer from epilepsy so new marker would be great. RedyreRotties: I get your name now, wiches. :D Mousekiller: what are the breed specific conditions/diseases for labs? PHMorgan: THat would be wonderful PHChristy: nimloth, I can see it's not as absolutely earthshaking in terms of numbers for Labs, but no matter how many you have, you have to be careful not to throw out the baby with the bathwater. PHMowgli: wiches I think all breeds can get epilepsy although it is showing more more a tendency in collies also PHChristy: Of course, all else being equal, I'd breed a non-carrier over a carrier, and I wouldn't breed a carrier lightly. RedyreRotties: Christy, superior dogs don't come along often. Sometimes breeding decisions are complicated. nimloth_nr: The whole idea of the test is to breed safely and intelligently. Unfortunately, so many of those using the test don't really understand anything of genetics PHChristy: I tend to believe knowledge is power and you can't have too much information PHMorgan: LOTS of breeds suffer from epilepsy. OF course this might be only ONE FORM that they have isolated RedyreRotties: Christy, absolutely. PHChristy: nimloth, yes, you'll never go broke betting on that! PHMorgan: There are strong suspicions that there are both a recessive AND a polygenic form RedyreRotties: nimloth, what issue are you speaking of in labs with the carriers, etc? RedyreRotties: or is the breed labs? nequestions221: hello PHChristy: hello nequestions! Welcome to Dog Breeding Chat! Our topic tonight is "Genetic Breakthroughs - What's happening in YOUR breed?" PHMorgan: Hi, nequestions - welcome to Breeder Chat nequestions221: um nimloth_nr: A friend of mine has a bitch that tested "C" - which is affected. It is a beautiful, specialty winning bitch. nequestions221: i have a mutt a bichion and a chihuhua PHMorgan: That is heartbreaking nequestions221: but i dont breed them RedyreRotties: nimloth, or is this Collies, and CEA. PHMorgan: It's so exciting that we now can get this kind of information nequestions221: they are all spayed or neautered PHMorgan: But it IS confusing nequestions221: i dont think ppl should breed PHMorgan: Christy - what is the best way to use this information when looking at your breeding program nequestions221: there are so animals up for adoption right now nimloth_nr: She decided to breed her to an A tested dog and carefully selected the one that she thought would give her one litter to move into the next generation RedyreRotties: nimloth, what breed? RedyreRotties: what disease? PHMowgli: yes Morgan on the article I read on the epilepsy find it said ti was a distinct marker for a specific form of epilepsy but they are hopeful it will lead to many more forms being found RedyreRotties: hi rebel nimloth_nr: Labs. Several of the stud owners she talked to refused to service her bitch. rebel_nr: hey Yall RedyreRotties: labs, and what health issue? nimloth_nr: PR nimloth_nr: PRA Mousekiller: huh? RedyreRotties: PRA. Oh, I see. Well, I can understand. That would be a hard decision for me as well if I were a stud dog owner. nimloth_nr: Even though there was NO chance of producing any affected offspring PHChristy: nimloth, as you said, they don't understand genetics PHMorgan: It's very scary to contemplate your dog being associated with the possibility of affected dogs PHMorgan: ANd it IS a complex issue PHChristy: we have a genetic condition in our breed, cystinuria PHChristy: a kidney defect PHMowgli: Christy what exactly does it do to the dogs? wiches_nr: wish I could have taken a course with Padgett PHChristy: even after carefully explaining that it's genetic and congenital to an oldtime breeder.... nimloth_nr: The breeder is so careful about how she places pups anyway that none of the offspring would be bred except the one(s) she kept PHChristy: she still insists diet causes it PHChristy: Mowgli, well, in some dogs, it just means they leak the amino acid cystine into their urine PHMorgan: Nim - that is great for HER, but at some point she will NOT be in control of her breeding stock or THEIR get.... IT's a hard thing PHChristy: which should be filtered by the kidneys PHChristy: but of those dogs with that filtering defect, a certain percentage will form stones made of cystine PHChristy: and thus get urinary obstructions PHMowgli: oh ok nimloth_nr: In what way?? IF only the ones she keeps are bred, and only the ones tested clear from that generation are bred... what is the problem? PHChristy: Morgan, that's true, and yet.... can any of our breeds really afford to shrink our gene pools when knowledgeable decisions can protect affected puppies from being conceived? wiches_nr: I heard that diet can help control seizures in some dogs. PHChristy: wiches, that's true... in some people too RedyreRotties: nimloth, with such an outstanding bitch, I can see how a breeder with such a responsible plan could do such a breeding. PHChristy: but for those forms of seizure disorder that are genetically caused, best to not do those breedings if you can RedyreRotties: In fact it may end up beneficial because then her line would in effect be cleared of PRA. PHChristy: Hey.... everyone.... PHChristy: can I thank you for ignoring that troll a few minutes ago? nimloth_nr: Yes... and I would have cheerfully let her use a stud I owned - because of her reputation and ethics
PHChristy: GOOD WORK!
wiches_nr: YES!
RedyreRotties: Christy, they don't like being ignored. it gets really boring after a bit. LOL
travlinpom_nr: Christy . . . . ohhhhhh it was soooooo hard to do . . . . .
PHChristy: LOL
PHChristy: I know trav, and you did better than I did
PHMorgan: YOu guys were so smart not to take the evil bait.... LOL
PHChristy: Dont' feed the snerts
PHMorgan: Hahahahaha
PHMowgli: I was ready to private it to shut up LOL
PHChristy: ok, back to saving our breeds
PHMorgan: :::::::Handing around the raspberry brownies:::::
PHChristy: consider yourselves clicked and treated
RedyreRotties: *has a tiny brag from the weekend*
nimloth_nr: I have two girls in my program who are PRA carriers (tested, never produced it)
PHMowgli: mmmmm I want two morgan
wiches_nr: yummy!
PHChristy: Redrye, tell tell!
RedyreRotties: I was Breed and Gr 2 with the puppy at the MIghty Match on Sunday. :D
PHChristy: well, I'm like the leading producer of Scottish Deerhounds with cystinuria on the bloody PLANET
PHMorgan: Wahoo Red!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1
PHMowgli: Awesome Red!!!!!!
wiches_nr: Way cool rotties!
PHMorgan: That is NOT a tiny brag
PHChristy: I'm the first breeder who opened her mouth and talked about it publically, when the first dog I bred was diagnosed
RedyreRotties: ty guys, she showed like a pro for me. :D
RedyreRotties: She is just 5.5 mos old.
PHMowgli: Well Christy is that your brag???
PHChristy: Red, that is FANTASTIC, congratulations!
PHChristy: LOL Mowgli
PHChristy: well, I WILL brag that I spoke out
nimloth_nr: They will only be mated to non-carriers. My first litter of 5 from the one girl turned out to all test as NON-carriers!
PHChristy: LOL Morgan
PHMowgli: ha ha Morgan
wiches_nr: Kudos to Christy!
RedyreRotties: Christy, if we are open and lay things out on the table for all to see, then they can no longer be used against us. If people were more open in dogs we could progress so much faster.
PHChristy: Redrye, I agree....
PHChristy: but I am starting over
PHChristy: and we won't have a test for cystinuria for years
PHMorgan: Brave soul - good for you
PHChristy: we are only about three years into that study and it's not going well
PHMowgli: REd exactly !!!!!!!!!
RedyreRotties: Christy, me too, with this puppy. That is very hard to do. I admire you for having the guts to admit it and do it.
nimloth_nr: The Newf people have really embraced their Cyst test
PHChristy: so we have to try and figure out it out based on breedings, which is a brutal and endless way to do it
PHMorgan: IT is a brutal way - but you have to do SOMETHING
PHMowgli: Red how did your puppy win anything at only 5.5 mths I thought all shows were 6 mths and older?
RedyreRotties: That is crushing, Christy. I wish you all good luck with your new start.
PHChristy: nimloth, yes, they are lucky though... they have a different mode of inhertitance than deerhounds, or in fact, any other breed they've studied
wiches_nr: Is that due to kidneys?
PHChristy: thank you Red
PHMorgan: Mow - it was a match
PHChristy: Red, good luck to you also!!
PHMowgli: ah see I was missing some info LOL
RedyreRotties: Mowgli, it was just a match. They have classes for 3-6 babies at matches. Her first point show is not til the 29th of this month, and she is 6 mos on the 28th,.
nimloth_nr: I have not read the full article on epilepsy. Did they find a recessive or dominant gene??
PHChristy: I own the CanineCystinuria yahoogroup and am about to start a website at www.caninecystinuria.com
PHMowgli: I was thinking maybe international for puppies that is why I asked
PHChristy: nimloth, it's recessive
RedyreRotties: Mow, yes, I know they have those baby classes at most of the FCI style shows. :D
wiches_nr: I don't know much about that disease.
PHChristy: I believe it's an autosomal recessive
nimloth_nr: The most common form of canine seizure disorder is dominant.
PHChristy: which is supposedly the easist form to test for? I'm not 100 percent sure of that
PHMorgan: Christy - what is autosoma recessivel?
nimloth_nr: It is going to be more difficulte to isolate
PHChristy: it's just the simplest form of recessive gene
nimloth_nr: Auto.... one. soma - having to do with the physical body
PHMowgli: nimlith if dominant you know who has it and you know they will produce easier to eliminate
PHChristy: both parents have to contribute a recessive gene to the breeding.... for a puppy to be affected. So if one parent has one gene, but other other has none, none are affected
nimloth_nr: It means that the gene affects just ONE aspect of the body.
nimloth_nr: And that there is only ONE allele at that locus
wiches_nr: would the pups be carriers at all?
RedyreRotties: Christy, that is also why you sometimes see these things in closer breedings. More chances for the genes to pair up. Also more chances to find out who has it and eliminate it.
PHChristy: Redrye, actually, with a simple recessive, I can't see why the closeness of the breeding would necessarily create more chances.... you could get it from a total outcross, even outside your breed, if the other dog is carrying it
RedyreRotties: Boy I tell you if breeders don't start paying more attention to shoulder structure in my breed, there is going to be *ell to pay.
PHChristy: wiches, yes, they could be
nimloth_nr: The dominant gene is very hard to isolate because it does not have total dominance. That is the way it works in humans
RedyreRotties: You can hardly find a correct one any more.
PHChristy: Red.... or you just mean increase the likelihood that both parents would have it... duh
nimloth_nr: I mean the epilepsy gene specifically ;=-)
RedyreRotties: Christy, exactly. :D
PHChristy: dominant breeds are more confusing
PHChristy: I mean GENES
PHChristy: gack, I need more caffeine, LOL
PHMowgli: oh ok nimloth I thought you meant in general not just epilepsy
PHMowgli: me too Christy
PHMorgan: It's funny - I think some of the structural problems in some breeds could be more easily corrected if more of the dogs still performed the jobs for which they were intented. If more Rotties still were used for herding cattle and carting, they'd necessarily have better shoulders or they'd not be bred since they could not do the work!
nimloth_nr: In human studies, they can take 24-hour EEGs of two parents of a child with epilepsy and find the spike brain pattern in one of them
RedyreRotties: Morgan, I agree completely. The short upper arms and lack of layback in some dogs is shocking.
PHMowgli: nimloth right but in dogs that is not an option
PHMorgan: Altho that is NOT an uncommon proiblem in dogs of many breeds
nimloth_nr: What they don't know is why the spike does not become generalized into a full seizure in the unaffected parent
PHMorgan: RIdgebacks are just as bad
RedyreRotties: Morgan, I am a shoulder freak. I admit it. LOL
PHMorgan: What's odd is many breeds are getting a layback of shoulder BLADE but having the upper arm come STRAIGHT DOWN from the point of shoulder
PHMorgan: Very ineffective
nimloth_nr: So, even though it only takes one parent to produce it, that parent is not necessarily diagnosable clinically
PHMorgan: WE can start our own "GOOD FRONTS OR DIE" club, Redyre
PHChristy: Here is a definition of autosomal recessive from the Harvard website, it's very clear: "Autosomal recessive inheritance means that the gene is located on one of the autosomes (chromosome pairs 1 through 22). This means that males and females are equally affected. "Recessive" means that two copies of the gene are necessary to have the trait, one inherited from the mother, and one from the father. A person who has only one recessive gene is said to be a *carrier* for the trait or disease, but they do not have any health problems from carrying one copy of the gene."
RedyreRotties: Morgan, yes, putting the forelegs way out on the front of the body, and no forechest.
PHMorgan: YEP YEP
RedyreRotties: Morgan, I will join. LOL
PHMorgan: Wow -g reat definition, Christy
PHMowgli: Christy and CEA, PRA, and so many other problems are autosomal
RedyreRotties: Morgan, you want to see shoulders, look at Basset hounds. I could stand by their ring sometitmes and just drool. LOL
PHMorgan: YEP
nimloth_nr: That leaves out x-linked disorders
PHMorgan: And those dogs don't really have to move! LOLOL
PHMorgan: Just kidding
wiches_nr: many norwich don't have good fronts either.
PHChristy: well, at least according to what our club's health liason says, autosomal recessives are the easiest to find a genetic marker for
PHMorgan: KEWL
PHMowgli: I am lucky in my breed at least we can pinpoint the affected and we go on the assumption all offspring of an affected is a carrier
PHChristy: nimloth, right...
RedyreRotties: Mowgli, that makes sense.
PHChristy: Mowgli, yes, but in breeds with very few numbers, we still have to breed those dogs
PHMorgan: Epilepsy is really the only serious genetic disorder in pointers, so it would be great to have the tools to eliminate it
nimloth_nr: The short-legged breeds typically have better shoulders. If they didn't they would be totally crippled, since they couldn't get and stride from their legs!
nimloth_nr: any
PHChristy: because i might say, well, there is osteo in that dog's lines, but bloat in this dog's lines, and heart disease in this one, and cystinuria in that one, and suddenly it's EVERY LIVING DEERHOUND... where do you go?
RedyreRotties: nimloth, exactly. :D
PHChristy: LOL nimloth, good, I'll have to breed in some Bassetts then
PHMorgan: Christy - use deer
PHChristy: er, Bassets
nimloth_nr: Epilepsy is not the only brain disorder in Pointers ;-)
PHMowgli: Christy even collies must still breed those carrier dogs also or else we would not longer have collies as at least study I believe it was 97% were carriers of CEA
PHChristy: would someone please come here and type for me, LOL?
RedyreRotties: LOL Christy
PHChristy: 100 percent of dalmatians are carrying a genetic kidney defect
nimloth_nr: Well, I figure when you get into a breed that has a problem so prevalent it is NAMED after the breed, you know what you are getting into
PHMowgli: Christy I think I need a typer myself LOL
PHMorgan: Nim - those be fighting words. YOU are speaking to the owner of 2 First in Novice at the nationals pointers, 2 versatility dogs and the owner and trainer of teh #1 APC Open Obedience dog in 2000....
PHMowgli: nimloth yes this is true LOL
PHMowgli: so collie eye tells e collies have bad eyes LOL
nimloth_nr: Sorry, Morgan. I trained pointing breeds for trials way back in the 70's and show Pointers had real temperament problems compared to those that were gon dog bred.
PHMowgli: hi william and dogs
RedyreRotties: Morgan, awesome accomplishments. Congrats on all that hard work. :D
nimloth_nr: gun
PHChristy: Our Morgan is a star
PHMorgan: Nim - they most certainly did. it's one of the best things since I started in pointers - the temperaments actually ARE better
RedyreRotties: What were the temp issues in Pointers?
nimloth_nr: I have not spent a lot of time around the pointers in recent years. I'm glad they are more stable
PHMowgli: temperaments in shelties are getting awful they are too terrier like now
nimloth_nr: They were scared of their shadows!
dogs_nr: Hello I have had my 4 pound 7 monyh old female chihuahua for a little over 2 months now and i cannot get her potty trained!! and im fustrated now cuz she is always peeing and pooping all over the house!!
RedyreRotties: oh dear. Timid.
RedyreRotties: dogs, do you have a crate?
William_nr: Hi..Thanks..Pug Dog Club of America is strongly testing lines for PDE
PHMorgan: In the 1980's they are complete spooks. Just having one who didn't go around the ring with it's tail up to it's sternum meant you won
PHMorgan: That isnt so much a problem now as then
nimloth_nr: Not stable, unpredictible. Certainly not something you want in a shooting dog.
PHMowgli: dogs you need to isolate her to a small area not a whole house
PHMorgan: Dogs - have you a crate for her?
dogs_nr: Yah i have tried crate training her but no matter what she will not pee when i tell her to until im not looking
RedyreRotties: dogs, lots of good potty training info at this website: http://www.uwsp.edu/psych/dog/dog.htm
PHMorgan: Dang Redyre - you were READY for that question!
PHMorgan: LOL
PHChristy: here is a link on the Dalmatian Backcross Project, if anyone hasn't read about it.... which probably everyone here has. But for the archive
PHMowgli: red want a job LOL
RedyreRotties: dogs, and this is a puppy training article I have written that you might find helpful... http://home.carolina.rr.com/clearview/puppytraining.rtf
RedyreRotties: Mow, if you only knew how many times I answer that question. lOL
nimloth_nr: Now that I am judging, I plan to watch a lot more of the sporting breeds and see how current trends are developing
PHMorgan: PRobably about as many as I do.... LOL
RedyreRotties: Morgan, maybe. :D
PHChristy: dogs...what do you mean, your puppy should "pee when you tell her to"?
PHMorgan: Here's a tip for ya, Nim - Pointers are NOT supposed to hackney.
PHMorgan: LOL
PHMowgli: dogs puppies do not pee on command
RedyreRotties: dogs, you can certainly train most puppies to eliminate on command, but it takes time, patience, and kindness.
nimloth_nr: Well, as a field trainer, I DO know that ;-)
dogs_nr: I have gotten her to pee on the wee wee pads when i tell her to then i let her in the house as a reward and she pees and poops even though she just did on the wee wee pads in the garage where her crate and food and stuff are at
PHChristy: and lots of females don't like to pee in front of anyone
RedyreRotties: All of mine pee on command. LOL
PHMorgan: Excellent. That makes you one of the few.... LOLOL
RedyreRotties: Pee pee for a cookie. LOL
PHChristy: dogs, you keep her in the garage?
dogs_nr: Only when we arent home
PHChristy: ah
PHChristy: that's good, you had me VERY worried!
dogs_nr: but it is made like a room so its not cold or anything
nimloth_nr: I have had Labs and Setters for 37 years plus trained professionally for gundog trials 5 years.
PHMorgan: Dogs - you might try attaching her to you with a lead when you are home
PHChristy: good
RedyreRotties: dogs, the single most important thign when housetraining a puppy is to supervise all outdoor elimination.
PHMowgli: dogs why can you not crate her in house when you are gone?
PHChristy: good idea, Morgan! I did that with a rescue dog once, and it worked like a charm
RedyreRotties: Go WITH the puppy every time. FOOD REWARD every outdoor elimination.
PHMorgan: Nim 0 sounds like you hae lots of working experience - that's useful
RedyreRotties: If you will say GO PEE PEE while the puppy is urinating, and give a coookie as soon as she is done, she will do it on command in short order.
PHMorgan: SO many judges have never seen the breeds doing their job
PHChristy: but I do find that some females are quite shy about urinating when you're watching, sometimes I turn my back or pretend to be looking somewhere else
dogs_nr: well if i put her in her crate she will not stop crying at all.
PHChristy: then I do a verbal praise
nimloth_nr: I really hate the way many of the sproting dogs move today... so many breeders have forgotten they have a FUNCTION
PHChristy: and that usually gets them to run to me to get loved up
PHChristy: of course, deerhounds are really quite easy to housebreak, some breeds are tougher
RedyreRotties: dogs, she has learned how to get her way. You must outwait her on the crying. She will get over it.
PHMowgli: hi wolfie
PHChristy: iwolfie!! Welcome to Dog Breeding Chat!
PHChristy: Our topic tonight is "Genetic Breakthroughs: What's happening in YOUR breed?"
RedyreRotties: dogs, please mark this site, print out this article, it will help you I promise. http://home.carolina.rr.com/clearview/puppytraining.rtf
PHMorgan: WHat bugs me is that some folks understand that a dog shouldn't cross or be uneven coming and going or from the side, but they have no real concept of REACH and DRIVE
nimloth_nr: They want a dog that runs aroung the ring with head strung up and lots of excessive leg action. That dog wouldn't last a half day in the field!
PHMorgan: Lots of "sound" dogs in the ring who actually COVER NO GROUND
PHChristy: iwolfie, I believe that in fact the Irish Wolfhound Club is looking at the Scottish Deerhound osteo test to see if might work for them too
PHChristy: as is the Greyhound Club of America
PHMorgan: I have a bitch here at home who can trot faster than most of the dogs in the ring can gallop
RedyreRotties: Morgan, exactly. I don't have to have flawless coming and going, but the side gait better be good.
PHMorgan: THat is reach and drive
nimloth_nr: The problem is EFFICIENCY of motion. You have to have that in a dog that will hold up in the field
dogs_nr: I found the spots where she pees in the garage and most of the time now like 90% of the time, she will pee on them. When i come home i tell her to pee on one of them and she pees then I take her inside. should I put a wee wee pad in a certain spot inside my house so she can know where to go in the house when she is inside?
PHMorgan: Side gait GOOD isn't good enough in a sporting dog - they have to COVER GROUND at a trot - they have to actually REACH FORWARD enough so that they are moving forward more than 2 inches at a time, and drive off the rear so they are propelling themselves in a forward manner
PHMorgan: Not many do this correctly
William_nr: Can I ask about the puppy in the crate in the garage..I was just wondering why she can't stay in the house in a crate while you are gone..
PHChristy: dogs, we have a Dog Training chat on Friday nights at 10 PM Eastern Time, you should come then also... I'm sure you'll get LOTS of good help. Also Kathy Diamond Davis answers behavior and traning questions on our forums at http://forums.doghobbyist.com
RedyreRotties: NO NO NO dogs, do NOT teach your dog it's ok to urinhate in the house.
PHChristy: William, the answer dogs gave was, the puppy never stops crying if in a crate in the house
PHChristy: and Redrye advised to wait her out, which I agree with
dogs_nr: William because she has room to play in the garage with my other chihuahua without me having to supervise her from peeing in the carpet.
William_nr: ah, the puppy has to know who the boss is
nimloth_nr: Well, nice to chat for a minute with all of you. Gotta run.
RedyreRotties: dogs, my puppy article addresses crate training, and there are lots of good crate training articles on the first link's site.
PHMorgan: My point is that a terrier can be a "soUND DOG" but no sporting dog should move like a terrier moves
RedyreRotties: I prefer the term "leader" to "boss".
PHMorgan: NOR should a terrier move like a sporting dog - that is not correct for THEM
PHMorgan: Leader is a good term, Red
William_nr: my girls first fuss about the crate..but then they learn to love it..when i tell them i;m leaving, they go to their crates..it's safety for them.
PHMorgan: I like that too. YOu are your dog(s) are a team, but you have to be the Leader
PHMowgli: my dogs only use crates in the car
RedyreRotties: William, here too. My adult girls do not sleep in crates, but the puppy will for quite some time yet.
William_nr: i ususally prefer the alpha word
PHMowgli: but they have their pens
PHChristy: I don['t use crates, but I do use xpens, for puppies.... more space. Deerhounds have long legs
RedyreRotties: yes, christy, I use those too. :D
William_nr: mine ride in cars and sleep thru in the night in their crates
PHMowgli: sheltie expens here too LOL
PHMorgan: LOL _ I visited a lovely poodle breeder last week....
William_nr: if not in crates, i would have 3 pugs in the bed with me..and my two year old human
PHMowgli: ha ha william
RedyreRotties: My 2 adults sleep on the floor beside the bed.
PHMorgan: She had 4 pups in an expen (they were older about 5 months) and they proceeded to move it all over the room to visit with me while I was there.... IT was so funny.... Containment-NOPE
William_nr: i would really love them in my bed..but they don't seem to care who they walk on or where they walk..lol..
RedyreRotties: too funny morgan. LOL
PHMorgan: Yeah - most of mine sleep with us in bed, but they have crates while we are at work and when they eat
William_nr: cute
PHMorgan: I have 8 dogs so feeding loose is too confusing
dogs_nr: before we lived in an apartment and when i got my first puppy i trained hime in 1 week to pee in the litter box which was inside the apartment since we had no yard or anything. However this puppy is alot harder she would not go in the litter box but she will go on the wee wee pads i discovered. So I shouldnt put a wee wee pad like lets say just in the bathroom and take her there every once in a while so she can know that she has to eliminate only on that wee wee pad when she is inside?
PHMorgan: Dogs - if you are comfortable with her going on the pads indoors, that is a good plan
RedyreRotties: dogs, can you not train the dog to go outside? Your life would be so much easier.
William_nr: yes, when they eat for sure..even my picky eaters eat better in crates..i believe it has made her feel more secure with her food
PHMorgan: And I would shut her in the bathroom when you are not home with the pads, or use the crate
PHMowgli: dogs with a chi if you want her just potty pad trained that is fine but if you want her housebroke you will be making it harder
PHMorgan: Mine all eat better in crates. Pointers are busy-bodie s- they are too distracted by the house goings-on to eat loose....
RedyreRotties: oh it's a tiny dog. Using the pee pee pads might be ok then.
PHMowgli: I litter train all my kids and they have litter boxes in their kennel
RedyreRotties: Mow, what breed>?
PHMowgli: I did this because of incelment weather where I live
PHMowgli: shelties red
William_nr: You know two of my girls came to me pad trained..it was hard to break them of the pads...they wanted to pee on anything paperish on the floor
RedyreRotties: oh, that's cool. :D
PHMowgli: willian yes I used to potty pad train but as you said anything paperish is then far game LOL
PHMorgan: OK folks - I promised my mother I would call her as soon as chat was over.... I will see you all next week - Christy has a SUPER new topic for us and I'm looking forward to reading the article she found and discussing it with all of you
PHMowgli: fair*
dogs_nr: Redyre- I had her trained to go outside but as soon as she eliminated and brought her back in the house as a reward she eliminated again. But most of the day i am not able to take her out all the time to eliminate and since she is a small breed that is why im training her to go on the wee wee pads.
PHMorgan: ANybody who is late doesn't get any mulled cider.... hehehe
PHChristy: night Morgan!
PHChristy: Thank you everyone for coming tonight, please sit tight for the second half of our DogHobbyist Doubleheader, Showdog Chat, which starts now!
PHChristy: night all, see you next week!
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