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PHChristy: Welcome to Dog Breeding Chat! Our topic tonight is the article The Downside of Inbreeding by CA Sharp

goldasin: hi

PHMorgan: Hiya Christy1

PHChristy: hey Rouen! Morgan!

Rouen: well the url says it all.. inbreeding

PHMowgli: hi christy

PHMowgli: no rouen you need to read honest LOL

PHChristy: Rouen - and yet inbreeding is what was used to create our breeds in the first place

PHChristy: As the opening line of the article states... "Inbreeding (which, for the purposes of this article, includes "linebreeding" ) has been the rule in dog breeding for the better part of two centuries."

terriertemper: brb I am going to read the article

Hometerv: I read it and don't agree

thorncolly: you cant truly outcross if you breed the same breed to each other

PHChristy: Hometerv, I have some disagreements with the article myself

PHChristy: thorncolly, that's true.... and in fact, Sharp is advocating the opening of our registries and stud books

thorncolly: I dont think that will ever go over

PHChristy: in other words, crossing out of our breeds to bring back traits we have lost

Hometerv: I am here to disagree - lol , to each their own

PHChristy: thorncolly, some people do it even now

thorncolly: I dont believe the trats are ever really lost - its a matter of selection

PHChristy: Hometerv, what are the points you disagree with?

PHChristy: thorncolly, of course traits are lost

PHChristy: traits are lost through genetic drift

thorncolly: another theory thats not proven

Hometerv: Most of it . I think Genetic selection is key , why muddy the waters

PHMorgan: Well, if we go with the argument that traits are lost through genetic drift, then how do we determine that incorporating other breeds with the "missing" traits will regain them?

PHChristy: thorncolly, how do you think that traits are preserved? Where are they preserved?

PHMorgan: Will we not risk genetic drift of other kinds?

Hometerv: I have a healthy typy , linebred line , why would I take a chance on an unknown

Rueger: well if say a dog is a carrire for HD and also a carries the trait for correct tail in order to get rid of the HD you also lose the correct tail if I read tonights article right

PHMorgan: How long will it take to regain type? What is lost during THAT transition?

PHChristy: Hometerv, yes, that's the main argument FOR inbreeding

thorncolly: I beleive the genes are still there, and we can select for or agInst them

PHChristy: Morgan, look at the Dal/Pointer crosses... they got type back immediately

Rouen: nice looking dog, groovy

PHChristy: thorncolly, where are the genes?

PHChristy: physically?

Hometerv: If I had HD , I would not continue

thorncolly: hidden

PHChristy: thorncolly, hidden on what?

PHChristy: where in body of the dog are they hidden?

Rouen: hey trav

Rueger: home notice I said carrier not affected

PHMorgan: It was my understanding from Dal friends that the experiment was considered a failure and those dogs are no longer part of the Dal gene pool

PHMorgan: Perhaps I am misinformed.

PHChristy: Morgan, the dogs had excellent type almost immediately.

thorncolly: thats a godo question - not long ago scientists found the genes for traits that they thought had been eliminated via evolution, and they were lying dormant - thats a whole other story and far more complicated then my simple mind can contemplate, but why would thyis not occur in other species ?

Rouen: http://www.doghobbyist.com/articles/Inbreeding.html

PHMorgan: I haven't seen any examples

PHChristy: they were indistinguishable from purebred Dals and producing uniform offspring by the 5th generation

Rueger: but christy then by breeding back do you not incorporate the same problems though into the new cleaner gene pool?

PHChristy: Here is the link: http://users.nbn.net/~jseltzer/dal_poin.html

PHChristy: on the dal pointer backcross project

grOOvyGaL_nr: i've seen inbred dogs come out with enlarged heads and all sorts of problems but then again i've seen and owned perfectly healthy inbreds

PHChristy: Rueger, it depends on the mode of inheritance of the trait you are discussing

PHChristy: groovygal, please read the article... I don't think we are discussing the same thing

PHChristy: it is possible, contrary to what thorncolly says, to eradicate a gene entirely from a dog, so that dog is no longer a carrier of that gene at all

PHChristy: that is why Scottish Deerhounds are all grey now

thorncolly: I agree with that theory - we are not talking about the same thing

PHChristy: our colors are gone and cannot ever come back

Rueger: oh ok christy so we take one gene at a time with this theory

PHChristy: thorn, please explain what you mean then. You said the genes are still there, but hidden, that you never really lose them

PHChristy: I interpreted that to mean that you can't eradicate or lose genes

Rueger: and either preserve it or eradicate it

PHMorgan: Thanks for the link, Christie

PHChristy: some genes are linked to other genes, others are not

travlinpom_nr: I believe it is possible to eradicate a specific gene, isnt the problem that you dont know if it is actually gone unless there is a test for it?

PHMorgan: I must confess, I can see the pointer in that 7th generation dog, but I can also see how good the cross is

PHChristy: it can reange from being very simple to very complex

PHChristy: range

thorncolly: you talking about traits that are measurable - such as eliminating the gene for PRA via DNA testing in the Lab - as an example since it can be done in that breed since they have the DNA test - provicved the test is accurate

grOOvyGaL_nr: where is the article?

PHChristy: Travlinpom, I'm not sure I follow you - but I'd say no. If you know the mode of inheritance, depending on what type of gene it is, you can know for sure it's gone

Rueger: right thorn but if we cannot test we cannot say wether it is gone or now

Rueger: not*

travlinpom_nr: Christy, a simple recessive gene, how would know that it was gone?

PHChristy: thorncolly, but the loss of the gene happens regardless of whether we can measure it or not... if genes can be lost or eradicated, they can be lost or eradicated with or without a test

thorncolly: that is my point really - and some genes that supposedly have vanished , might still be there - the no-seeums, that suddenly show up unexpectedly

PHChristy: thorn, yes, they MIGHT still be there, I agree completely

grOOvyGaL_nr: thanks morgan

PHMorgan: Thank Christy - she found the article! :-)

PHChristy: but that doesn't mean that genes can't be lost or eradicted, only that in some cases they are or are not

Rueger: but there is no way to know for certain unless we can find the gene and test for it

PHChristy: Rueger, yes, there is, again, depending on the mode of inheritance of the trait

Hometerv: But Genes can sit for generations , why not try to water them down ?

travlinpom_nr: Rue, that is exactly what i am saying . . . you dont know if it is gone

PHMorgan: So overall, C. Sharp is saying that inbreeding and linebreeding are costing our dogs valuable hybrid vigor and promoting more severe genetic drift?

PetGal49_nr: I don't like when peps breed

Rueger: christy you think all other colors are gone from scottish deerhounds but what happens if say 3 generations from now you get a white puppy well guess what the genes are not gone

PHChristy: Rueger, it's impossible because grey is recessive

Rueger: but what if you get two parents who happen to the have the recessive for white and it shows as dominant in that puppy

PHMorgan: IT doesn't show as dominant, Reuger, it just shows

PHChristy: grey is RECESSIVE in Scottish Deerhounds, so grey dogs are carrying and showing grey

thorncolly: It would be interesting to know what C. Sharp bases the theory on, and what inbreeding coefficient is beign referred to ?

PetGal49_nr: there are so many unwanted dogs that you should not breed

PHMorgan: It's difficult to evaluate an article when you don't know what their sources are

Rueger: right morgan

PHChristy: once you have grey puppies, it means they are not carrying anything BUT grey, because since it's dominant, if they were, it should show up

Rueger: and since we are breeders and do realize how important some inbreeding or linebreeding is we all have trouble with this in some form LOL

PHChristy: so a grey dog isn't carrying anything but the grey gene

travlinpom_nr: Christy, that is just like the blk&tan pattern in Poms . . . if the dog is blk&tan, that's all he carries

PHChristy: trav, exactly!

Rueger: bi-black for shelties trav lOL

Rouen: christy wouldn't you need 2 dogs thats carried the recessive gene to show it in the puppies? and then you only have a 50% chance of any of the pups actually showing

PHChristy: so we KNOW the other colors are lost

Hometerv: Why would I want to introduce unknowns into an already good line ?

PHChristy: because a grey dog, which is all that exists...

travlinpom_nr: Yet, it is possible to get a blk&tan from a solid orange breeding . . . . like the "white" example that Rue mentioned

higlyn_nr: Hello, I have Norwegian Lundehunds, which had 3 bottlenecks in 1943, 1948 and 1962. In 1962, we were down to 6 dogs, 5 of which had the same mother. The last time as far as I know that the grey color happened was in the mid 1970's. Ever since, it has been the reddish brown color.

PHChristy: Rouen - yes, but once you have a dog that is showing grey, you know they themselves are grey/grey

PHChristy: and can't provide the genes for any other color

Rueger: right trav cause they carry the blk and tan genes and we call them blk and tan factored

PHChristy: when the last non-grey dog died, it was over

PHChristy: highlyn, yes, it's exactly the same in deerhounds

PHChristy: I think that Lundehounds and Deerhounds have some things in common on this issue

PHMorgan: So there is virtually little to no genetic diversity in these two breeds?

PHChristy: Morgan, correct, but more so in Lundehunds

Rueger: christy but you have a relatively rare breed where as trav and I have very popular breeds and are not in danger of bottlenecks

PHChristy: Lundehunds have an exceptionally small gene pool even for a rare breed

higlyn_nr: What most of us are doing is to have at minimum 3 generations clean bloodlines (no repeat ancesters) and working towards 5 generations clean and hopefully start working towards 6 or more generations clean.

PHChristy: Rueger, what Sharp is saying is that ALL dogs with closed registries, even those with fairly large numbers, have limited their genetic traits

PHChristy: you cannot make a gene pool bigger without going out of the breed

Rueger: same for thorn so we have to go on the assumption that by outcrossing such as this article says could cause even more problems

PHChristy: you cannot make the situation BETTER, you can only keep it the same or worse

PHChristy: you can't improve it

PHChristy: I think outcrossing can introduce problems

PHChristy: I have great natural affinity for the inbreeding theory

PHChristy: that you know what you have

Rueger: but for me to say use a pom inmy breed will that not cause even more genetic traits for even more genetic disease

PHMorgan: But if the theory for genetic drift is true, then what CHristy is saying about not being able to improve the breed is false

Hometerv: ChristyYou can absolutly make it better

PHChristy: but if you look at the tendency in more popular breeds to use "popular sires"... and in small breeds to lose genetic traits without realizing it....

travlinpom_nr: Yes, i much prefer linebreeding and inbreeding, really dont like going out

Rouen: hey red

Hometerv: Have a litter of 6 and line breed

PHMorgan: It's unlikely to predict that your genetic drift will fall into the category of eliminating bad genetic traits while keeping GOOD ones, but it SHOULD be possible

PHChristy: Hometerv, if you define making it better as eradicating a specific problem, yes, you can (well, sometimes.... the Dals can't)

Rueger: me too trav

higlyn_nr: Lundehunds have been on their islands before the people came (Lofoten Islands). Basically, our breed has been there for a very long time. We have nothing to outcross to.

RedyreRotties: trav, my puppy is an outcross, gives me a lot of ways to go with her, but I will be breeding in somewhere.

PHChristy: Higlyn, what Sharp is advocating is that you go OUT of your breed

terriertemper: what if your breed has no know problems?

PHChristy: but what he's saying you can't make better is the size of your gene pool

higlyn_nr: Yes, but there is no other breed that went into our breed.

Rueger: all breeds have known problems

Hometerv: Why can't the Dals ? Honest q

PHChristy: terrier, what breed is that, LOL?

PHMorgan: I want one... whatever it is

RedyreRotties: yeah, I want one of those. LOL

PHMorgan: LOL

PHChristy: highlyn, that's irrelevant to his theory

PHChristy: Hometerv, every living Dalmatian carries a genetic kidney defect

PHChristy: there are no clear individuals at all

PHChristy: zero

Rueger: christy isn't that the same for the deerhounds?

PHChristy: Rueger, no

PHChristy: not that we know, anyway

Rueger: or did I miss understand that

terriertemper: I wondered if hips and eyes were thought to be caused by line breeding?

Hometerv: OK , Thanks i love new Info , What about other breeds ?

RedyreRotties: nothing can be caused by linebreeding. It can only present what was present in the genetic profile.

Rueger: right red

PHChristy: Hometerv, I honestly don't know of any breed with a 100 percent incidence of carrying a known defect

PHMorgan: Exactly

higlyn_nr: Ok, I am one of those owners that had a mix that had colon cancer. I realize that the more variation in genetic makeup the less potential problems but it does still happen.

PHChristy: there may be, however, and we just don't know it yet

PHChristy: higlyn, yes, it does

RedyreRotties: highlyn, sure does.

PHChristy: if you read the article, he does talk about mixed breed populations too

Rueger: and also mongrels have just as many health problems as purebreds

PHMorgan: WEll, if we look at TRAITS in general, not just BAD traits, it can be seen that there are FEW traits of ANY kind that are COMPLETELY found on ONLY one breed

RedyreRotties: genetic diversity is necessary. However, the only way to consistent type and structure in breeding is through close or line breeding, IMO.

PHMorgan: For example, even Ridgebacks are NOT the only breed with RIDGES

Rueger: they just are not genetically predisposed for certain problems

PHMorgan: Or that CAN carry them

travlinpom_nr: So he is advocating mixed breeds? what happens to "type"?

PHMorgan: CHows are not the only breed with a Black tongue

terriertemper: so was it an accidental breeding of two carrier dogs that created say hip problems?

higlyn_nr: My breed is known for IL/PLE and it is prevalent in the breed (Lundehunds). It is a rare breed with a very close genetic genepool (20+markers to tell one from another).

RedyreRotties: no shar pei are required to have a blue tongue I believe.

PHMorgan: I don't think he is advocating anything particularly, just pointing out that genetic diversity is impossible within a breed if it never outcrosses to another breed

travlinpom_nr: My goodness, how much diversity do we need?

thorncolly: hip displasia occurs in humans as well - its been around a very long time

Rueger: but like I said by crossing in another breed don't we just add a bigger mix of problems to the gene pool

PHMorgan: I'm not sure what is really to be gained by genetic diveristy. Perhaps I am completely stupid, but I really don't see the need

PHChristy: Someone just IMed me, "What is popular sire syndrome?"

PHChristy: This paragraph from the article discusses it: ”The use of popular sires, particularly multiple generations of them, can accelerate loss of alleles. A dog can only have a maximum of two alleles for any given gene. Excessive use of a single individual will skew the gene pool toward the alleles that dog happened to carry. Obviously, such a dog gets heavy use because he has desirable traits. Genes for those traits will become more common, but so will those for his lethal equivalents and more subtle ills. And if a deleterious gene is ‘linked’ (sits close on the chromosome) to a desired gene the sire carries, the breed may suddenly find itself riddled with the problem that bad gene causes. It won’t be easy to eliminate unless breeders are also willing to give up the linked desired trait.”

PHMorgan: I see a need to breed healthy individuals who can perform the tasks for which the breed is intended

Rueger: for instance by my breeding in a pom to a sheltie I bring in to shelties luxated patellas and also I bring in sheltie problems to the pom population

PHChristy: Rueger, yes, you do BUT....

grOOvyGaL_nr: So are inbreeding and line breeding the same?????

RedyreRotties: groovy, in some ways. INbreeding is closer.

PHChristy: Rueger let me ask you a question

Rueger: go for it christy

PHChristy: aren't you glad that you have a bigger gene pool than Lundhunds or Deerhounds?

Rueger: oh yes christy very vrey glad

travlinpom_nr: Rue, and we are seeing those problems right now with the "new exotc" merle poms

PHMorgan: I think the need for "Extra-breed" outcrosses is reserved ONLY for breeds with serious health defects which cannot be eliminated within the existing gene pool

Rueger: I know trav

thorncolly: I would prefer to see more emphasis on getting breeders to do genetic testing that is available to their breed, and development of more tests for serious problems, DNA tests in particular, and continue to linebreed and inbreed on valuable lines

higlyn_nr: In my breed, we strive for 14 offspring per dog. We also breed pretty much any dog as long as it has 2 descended testicles and is not an albino. We are trying to keep what little variety of gene pool we have.

PHChristy: thorncolly, yes, me too... did you come to chat last week, or read the transcript?

PHMorgan: Groovy - what he is saying is that they are virtually the same when one looks at the breed as a whole over many generations

PHChristy: Morgan, exactly

thorncolly: no - I missed last week

PHChristy: Rueger, well, one way you could get that is to cross OUT, even though you'd be getting more problems, you'd be making your gene pool bigger

PHChristy: thorncolly, that was our topic last week

Rouen: hi min

PHChristy: and it is what led to this one

Minuet: Hi Rouen

thorncolly: ohhh - sorry I missed that one

travlinpom_nr: I am still not seeing the advantage of "making the gene pool bigger"

PHChristy: thorncolly, I sent the link with the reminder, did you get it? Let me grab it

thorncolly: but the two are tied together

PHChristy: travlinpom,hang on while I grab that link for thorncolly....

PHMorgan: For example, most pointer breeders in teh US, particular on teh East Coast, can trace their lines back to 3 breeders within 10 generations, and THOSE 3 breeders can trace their lines back to ONE UK breeder within 10 generations

Rueger: me either trav it just brings in bigger problems for breeds with a lot of diversity already

PHChristy: http://www.doghobbyist.com/articles/DogHobbyist/DogBreeding/Jan112005.html

PHMorgan: So, in essence, MOST of the Pointers on the East Coast will go back to that ONE UK breeder

PHMorgan: Fortunately NOT ALL

PHMorgan: :-)

PHMorgan: I don't see it for MY breed, Trav, or for yours

PHMorgan: Is it not true that MOST dogs in Your breed are clear for at least one or two or MORE of the genetic defects whicnh your breed carries?

higlyn_nr: One of the other things that I am striving for in my breeding program is importing bloodlines that I do not have and that would be helpful to my breed.

PHMorgan: (that was for Trav)

PHChristy: higlyn, I think those of us with very small breed numbers have to do that

thorncolly: thanks Christy

PHMorgan: and if that's true, then you have no need to go to another breed to get generations wihtout genetic defects. YOu just have to find clear individuals and use them

travlinpom_nr: groovy, that is a very loose linebreed

PHChristy: we can't throw the baby out with the bathwater, we don't have a population of hunting dogs or pet-bred dogs or dogs in other countries or whatever we can turn to, for genetic diversity

PHChristy: Morgan, yes, if you are looking at just a few specific traits

PHChristy: but I think what Sharp is saying is that when we narrow who we'll use more and more and more....

PHMorgan: RIght - I was addressing Trav's statement that she sees no need to go outside her breed for genetic diversity or "cleanliness"

Rouen: well that depends on your breed, christy

PHChristy: all of one breed, only with these genetic traits, only of our lines, AND then we want to limit using dogs who carry traits we want to avoid, maybe some we have a genetic test for now for the first time....

Rueger: but if we do not fall for the popular sire well can ensure our lines aren't bottlenecked

PHChristy: inevitably, any breeder will hit the wall, over enough time

Rouen: some breeds do have dogs in other countries that are what our american versions are supposed to look like

PHMorgan: I don't see it for my breed, either, but I can see how it might be useful to OTHER breeds which have both a smal gene pool AND problems

Hometerv: Sharpe said our bitches would eat their young ????

Rouen: basenjis and salukis, among others

PHChristy: Hometerv... LOL, I don't think he said they WOULD

PHMorgan: I personaly think that is an extreme temperamental risk

PHMorgan: I think he was listing the temperamental issues that might show up due to continued inbreeding

terriertemper: labrodoodles are certainly outcrosses lol right?

PHMorgan: As well as the physical ones

Rueger: me too morgan though I can see the decrease in littersize being a factor or even the not carrying to term

PHMorgan: Terrier - yes they are

PHMorgan: :-)

Rouen: lol terrier

grOOvyGaL_nr: what is bottle necked?

Hometerv: He gave the impression , that does not happen , he also inferred too the Belgians , and then dropped it ... I would love to add to that

PHMorgan: I really think a decrease in litter size is more a factor of breeding genetically defective reproductive systems

Rueger: and I can see where like the bulldog they can no longer free whelp is a problem

PHChristy: "Think of genes as recipes. They carry the instructions for the various components that go into making up an organism."

Rueger: right morgan but you can get that when you get too closely linebred

travlinpom_nr: I do alot of line breeding/inbreeding and my litter sizes are quite good

PHMorgan: I think many breed defects come about by breeders being UNABLE to visuallize or even have information about what they are doing in their breeding program

Hometerv: Gosh Litter size , I have huge litters for my breed , which are line / inbred

PHChristy: "Suppose we start a new population with only six or eight founders. (A number of breeds have started with that few.) We will get rid of hundreds of bad recipes, but the remaining dozen or two will be encountered much more frequently."

RedyreRotties: ONLY if the dogs you are linebreeding on carry genes for repro issues and small litters.

Rueger: trav yes unless you line breed or inbreed on poor producers to begin with

PHChristy: "Furthermore, if there are several good or excellent recipes, the chance of dropping one of these from the collection grows greater as the number of founders diminishes, and the risk of losing one remains high as long as the effective population size remains low."

thorncolly: I agree Morgan - its a matter of selection and what you accept in your individuals you use for breeding. I am in processs of eliminating a bitch line from my program due to poor mothering in 2 generations -

PHMorgan: For example, many GIANT breeds have a short life span - often due to heart failure. ONe theory is that when the dogs were "bred up" in size, internal organs were not considered for soundness as they could not be clearly evaluated

PHChristy: "Working with small numbers will inevitably decrease the diversity, simply because individuals do not pass on their recipes equally to the next generation and some recipes are accidentally lost. This has the superficially desirable result of giving a more reproducible phenotype, but at the expense of an overall reduction in quality, health, and longevity. "

Hometerv: If you use what works ,it should continue

PHMorgan: So, one could not say, Well, Ben the St. Bernard shouldn't be bred because his heart size doesn't match his skeleton - nobody could evaluate that at that time

PHMorgan: So he was bred anyhow

PHMorgan: Again, just an anecdotal theory

PHChristy: "If breeders had the ability to recognize each individual recipe and choose only those that were excellent, breeds could be produced with a small number of individuals that lacked genetic problems. However, what we see (the phenotype) is the product of all the recipes and, for the most part, we cannot distinguish the individual recipes."

Rueger: morgan actually that is becoming a problem in shelties!!

PHChristy: "Moreover, we do not have the option of selecting recipes individually. When we select an animal for breeding, we are forced to accept a complete set. Even in those few cases where we now have a DNA test for a bad recipe (allele), we do not possess the ability to correct or selectively discarded it. We are therefore forced to work around it, or to discard the whole collection, with the attendant risk of discarding something excellent along with it."

higlyn_nr: Bottlenecked. My breed had 3 survive in 1943 (distemper during WWII) then had the 3 plus descendents survive during 1948 (distemper again) then the puffin was declared an endangered species (no job), so in 1962 there were 5 (same mom, 2 different fathers) and one unrelated male. This is what I would call 3 bottenecks and three close calls at extinction.

grOOvyGaL_nr: does anyone know about american staffies?

RedyreRotties: higlyn, what breed please?

higlyn_nr: Norwegian Lundehunds

terriertemper: so how does breeding a bitch that is very in bred to a sire that is a total outcross but also very inbred, how does that help?

RedyreRotties: Ok, TYVM

Rueger: oh by the way in case is curious isle royal is on lake superior not lake michigan

PHChristy: That is from "Diversity and the Purebred Dog" by John Armstrong, I highly recommend it... http://www.canine-genetics.com/cake.htm

RedyreRotties: depends on what faults and virtues you are trying to offset.

PHMorgan: I don't see how working with small numbers necessarily causes an overall reduction in quality health or longevity

PHChristy: terrier, well, it might help and it might not, it would depend on the whole picture

PHChristy: what this is, is POPULATION GENETICS, not specific genetics

PHMorgan: I don't get that at ALL

PHMorgan: Which is it necessarily a negative result?

PHMorgan: Why can't it be a positive result?

PHChristy: Morgan, well, it wouldn't if they weren't all genetically identical or very close

Hometerv: You are only forced to accept the complete set if you have a limited gene pool to choose from

PHChristy: if you had a small number of individuals who had a very varied genetic assortment... lots of recipes available

PHMorgan: Why can't it be that the genes lost through genetic drift might be all bad ones?

Hometerv: The choice is your accept the unknown or stay with what you know

PHChristy: breed numbers and gene pool size are related but not absolutely tied, not definitionally

Rueger: morgan ever heard of murphy's law?

terriertemper: I think I would tend to prefer distant line breeding

PHChristy: Morgan, well, because life isn't like that LOL

PHMorgan: I disagree

PHChristy: terriertemper, in some breeds, distant line breeding is only relative

PHChristy: Morgan, because genes are sometimes (not always) linked

PHChristy: you can't really "clean out the junk" and not lose other, valuable traits, too

PHMorgan: I do NOT think that just becuase there is a drift that it must be in the WRONG direction. I'm not saying it ISN'T in teh wrong direction or it ISN'T negative, just that it seems narrowminded to assume the worst

PHChristy: because we have no way of knowing what is linked to what, our knowledge of genetics is too limited at this time

PHChristy: also, many genes aren't simple, they are multi-factorial

Hometerv: Cristy , Yes you can , but it takes time and perservierance

Rueger: all the more reason to not add in tooo many unknown ingredients christy

PHChristy: Hometerv, well, given enough time, yes, but not a human lifetime

Hometerv: I agree Reuger

PHMorgan: I understand all that, but I'm not sure again, why eliminating a bad trait NECESSARILY means it will be linked to good stuff that you lose too. Again, not saying it's impossible or unlikely, just that it makes no sense to ASSUME it will be bad

travlinpom_nr: Rue, geez, that's what i was thinking . .

PHChristy: Rueger... or an equally good argument for preserving as much genetic material as you can for the future, because what if one day you find that linebred stud had some dangerous junk hiding in there?

PHChristy: but you can't find a dog alive who isn't down from that stud?

terriertemper: hmmm good point

Hometerv: Yes It was handed to me and I will hand it down to , but can be done

PHChristy: as may be happening in my breed right now with cysinturia, which was "hidden" as a breed problem until a few years ago

Rueger: ah but christy once again thathappening ina breed like mine would be very very rare

PHChristy: Rueger, because you have a larger gene pool.... which is exactly what we're talking about the desirability of!

RedyreRotties: bye, groovy

PHChristy: it's like you're saying having a large gene pool is bad but I'm sure glad I have one, LOL

RedyreRotties: ours is pretty large as well.

higlyn_nr: If you look at some horse popular sires, you will find that there are certain "popular sire" genetic diseases that have been found to be descended from them, ie HYPP in quarter horses for one.

Rueger: I understand this but why not just use the diversity of what we have in those breeds with the abiilty and only mess with the rare breeds who need it

RedyreRotties: 2 pretty much separate gene pools here and in Germany and Europe.

travlinpom_nr: All of this seems to be based on that idea that you WANT a larger gene pool . . . that just isnt the case, I linebreed to narrow the gene pool . . . why would i want it any different

PHChristy: Redrye, yes, something we dont' have in deerhounds.... I think it's good for a breed to have different "pools" to draw from

travlinpom_nr: Maybe this discussion is really not for me or my breed

PHChristy: Travlin.... I don't think so

PHMorgan: I don't think it's for mine, either, but it's good to know.... :-)

RedyreRotties: you wouldn't trav until you have a problem from which you cannot escape beCAUSE of a small gene pool.

PHChristy: right

PHMorgan: yeah, Then Trav, yer gonna have to breed to chows

PHMorgan: LOLO

Rueger: right morgan

Rouen: lol

Rueger: he he he

terriertemper: lol

RedyreRotties: Very interesting discussion, I must say.

PHChristy: Dals had a large gene pool, a pet-bred population, dogs in different parts of the world.... large numbers

PHChristy: didn't help them

PHMorgan: Don't feel badly - I will be stuck with FOXHOUNDS

higlyn_nr: Travlin, you are very fortunate to not have to worry. Realize though that Norwegian Lundehunds and others were in that place once too.

Rueger: morgan I could always grab BC's or aussies LOL

PHChristy: one day they realized they had a problem, and when they looked, they discovered EVERY LIVING DALMATIAN, all of them, had it too

PHChristy: surprise surprise

Hometerv: I have no problem useing the "pet" owned by the person who does not want to show , knowing it is from the same line as mine and has passed all the health screans

PHChristy: and it could happen to Poms as a breed, or in your lines alone Trav

PHMorgan: WEll, I think both dalmatians and goldens started OUT with a tiny gene pool, is that not right?

Hometerv: Same gene pool same boat

Rueger: that is true christy and we could find out with any breed that our entire populations is strife with a genetic disease

PHChristy: Hometerv, if it's from the same line as yours, on the basis of population genetics, it's not accomplishing anything. On the basis of specific individual breeding, it might, sure.

RedyreRotties: Christy, what is it they have? Stone forming disease?

PHChristy: Redrye, yes

PHChristy: well, they don't all form stones

PHChristy: but they all carry the genetic defect

Rueger: but they all carry the problem

PHChristy: Rueger, yes

travlinpom_nr: I'm just not buying it, there are way too many outcrossed dogs out there

higlyn_nr: From what I have read about the Dals is that the large spots have the urinary crystal problem, small pointer like spots don't have the problem?

PHChristy: but until they had a test, they didn't know

RedyreRotties: wow. Do they have any way to breed away from it at all?

travlinpom_nr: I do understand that it can be come a problem in rare breeds

PHChristy: higlyn, all Dals carry it

PHMorgan: That is what I would like to know

PHChristy: Redrye, sure... by going out of the breed

Rueger: thorn is there a population of collies who do carry the CEA defeect?

PHMorgan: If genetic drift is a valid theory, then EVENTUALLY, there must exist some specimen without said negative trait

PHChristy: which they did... here is the link: http://users.nbn.net/~jseltzer/dal_poin.html

Rueger: I am sorry I meant do not

RedyreRotties: why do some dogs form and some don't? Could you not begin by breeding dogs who don't form stones?

Hometerv: How do you figgue that , theyare healthy and typy , specialtty wins and earthdog test wins all linebred ,for decades

PHMorgan: Which, if the trait can be identified through DNA< could eventually be eliminated

PHChristy: Morgan, unless it's linked to something vital that never gets selected against

PHMorgan: It's a major roll of the dice

PHMorgan: THere ya go being negative

thorncolly: Rueger - most collies carry the CEA

RedyreRotties: hi val.

PHChristy: Redrye, they don't know the difference between the stone formers and non-stone formers, they don't even know if that is a genetic trait or environmental

VAL911K9: Ni everyone

RedyreRotties: ouch.

Rouen: hi val

PHMorgan: I guess all we can hope for is Deerhounds without cynesturia but WITH a third eye??? LOL

Rueger: so in effect thorn what could hapen within our lifetime is all collies could be cea affected

PHChristy: MOrgan, sure, but what if you find that it's linked to pointing instinct?

PHChristy: ROFL Morgan

Rueger: sorry thorn that was a question not a comment

thorncolly: Rueger - its about 85 to 90 % collies with CEA in the USA - but most of them hav eno vision problems, so thats the kicker - there is not incentive to improve it

PHMorgan: I'm not sure I understand how something could be permanently LINKED

PHMorgan: I get linked, but if genetic drift exists, then it might NOT always be linked

RedyreRotties: morgan, it means that things are near each other in the DNA strand. On the same chromosome. So you get one, you get the other.

Rueger: hmm thorn but won't the defect worsen over generations?

Rueger: or can the defect stay with no vision problems?

thorncolly: NO - quite the opposite - it has IMPROVED - andthat has been seen in individual breeding programs and Dr. Vainisisi our ppthal has also seen it

PHMorgan: I get that - but if a trait could drop out, why could not it become unlinked?

Rueger: I guess only way to know that is to be psychic

thorncolly: Rueger - yes - the CEA in most cases they have no vision problem,

Rueger: ok so vision is improving but the numbers of affected are increasing?` or are the number eclining with the testing being available?

thorncolly: I believe numbers of severaly affecteed dogs has declined because breeders mostly use dogs with minimal problems and no actual vision problems - such as coloboma or worse

PHMorgan: (anyone else need an advil?)

higlyn_nr: I also have Border Collies, although I do not breed them. Yes, I check to make sure mine do pass cerf.

PHChristy: if one drops out, the linked one drops with it

Rueger: ot me morgan

PHMorgan: I understand that, Christy - I do, but somehow it seems to me if there is genetic drift than genes do NOT have to be permanently linked

PHChristy: and it would require actual genetic engineering, in a test tube quite literally, to "unlink" them

PHChristy: Morgan, why?

PHChristy: if one "drifts" the linked one goes with it

PHChristy: if one stays, the linked one stays with it

PHMorgan: THat makes no sense - all genes are linked to others - there cannot be drift without SOME unlinking

Rouen: wb mow

PHChristy: Morgan, all genes are NOT linked to each other

Hometerv: What if they stay

PHMorgan: IT's not like some specimens have only one chromosome

PHMorgan: But they are linked to SOMETHING

terriertemper: I know why don't we all wait 4 cloning!

PHChristy: LOL terrier

higlyn_nr: I believe that if the breed has a lot of dogs, then it may be possible to weed out affected and carriers. In the breeds where there are too few "healthy" ones, that is the problem.

Rueger: but with testing available now we can greatly improve our gene pools imo

RedyreRotties: thanks everyone for a very nice chat.

terriertemper: how do you go back more than 5 geerations in a pedigree?

thorncolly: Rueger - I agree , and there is more testing to come in the nbear future - we just have to take advantage of it, and the problem is that many dont evne take advantage of the testing we have now - many complain about the costs involved in testing

PHChristy: folks... we did a chat on this a long time ago, but let me give out this link again: The genetic tide

Rueger: terrier go back more generations

PHMorgan: Terrier - are you asking how to get a pedigree for other ancestors besides those shown on your original AKC pedigree?

higlyn_nr: If there is testing available then perhaps there is a possibility that the breed can be improved depending on the % of the breed that has the gene.

PHChristy: it says, "The books on dog breeding hold no answers. They tell us how to use inbreeding, linebreeding and outcrossing, and they teach us the basics of Mendelian genetics, but these help to manage one or two traits at a time. Genes don't assort one trait at a time! Genes are linked in groups on chromosomes. While we were all busy inbreeding and linebreeding to 'fix' the desirable traits of breed type and conformation, something else happened, and now we are producing a steady increase in unwanted traits that we call genetic defects."

RedyreRotties: thorn, to me the cost of not testing is way too high.

Rueger: research the dogs buy a pedigree

terriertemper: yes beyond the AKC

PHChristy: "The science of 'population genetics' is old stuff to wildlife biologists, but few dog breeders in this country know much about it. Yet it could have warned us about the problems we'd end up with by practicing artificial selection, breeding from small founder groups with no new gene inflow for decades, and relying on sustained incest breeding without the brutal tempering influence of natural selection. "

Rueger: I think the testing fee's are high but I will continue to utulize and hop ethe fee's decrease

PHMorgan: Terrier - you find a few ancestors (great-grandparents) and request THEIR pedigrees from AKC, OR you contact your breeder and request a more thorough pedigree

PHChristy: "Today, when many registered breeds are 50 to 100 years old, bred within a closed studbook the entire time, population geneticists tell us we cannot continue these practices any longer if we want healthy canine companions. They say new genetic inflow is needed to counter random drift in small breed populations and to restore heterozygosity - genetic diversity - where it has been lost through inbreeding. They tell us we are overusing popular sires and add that the German Shepherd Dog, despite millions of actual individuals worldwide, has an effective genetic population of 400 to 600 animals only! Time-honoured breeding practices are now labelled "genetic genocide."

PHMorgan: Many folks in various breeds STOCKPILE pedigrees on many dogs for use by themselvse and others

PHChristy: anyway... thank you all for coming.... it was a great and invigorating chat!

PHMorgan: I have a database of 1500+ dogs in my breed

PHMorgan: Thanks for the topic, Christy

PHChristy: I will have coffee before chat next week, I promise

PHMorgan: Super discussion

PHChristy: actually...

RedyreRotties: there is also a website that may be helpful to you, http://www.pawvillage.com

Rueger: over 6000 for mine morgan

PHMorgan: Then we won't be able to keep up

PHChristy: let me announce next week's topic, which is TOTALLY different

PHChristy: next week's topic is....

PHChristy: "Is there a Cure for Canine Parvovirus?"

terriertemper: thx everyone have a wonderful week byeee

RedyreRotties: ty christy for a good chat.

PHMorgan: NIght guys - see ya'll next week

PHChristy: and the answer to that may be YES

Hometerv: Thanks Christy :)

PHChristy: goodnight all, see you next week!