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Transcript: Dog Breeding Chat Tuesday, January 20, 2004: Palpation PHMorgan: Welcome to Breeder's Chat - Topic tonight is Palpation Rueger: sorry morgan I will change later LOL PHMorgan: Yeah, I waspromised a few, too PHMorgan: It's ok Reug - just teasing PHMorgan: Let's face it - you have good taste Rueger: Hi frog FrogDog: hey Rueger: I want to get a sheltie avatar LOL Rueger: have to send in a shelite face to christy LOL PHMorgan: Man - where is everyone tonight - I showered Rueger: they heard I was back and ran away LOL PHMorgan: Welcome to Breeder's Chat - Topic tonight is Palpation Rueger: trav how are hte puppies? PHMorgan: NOooooooooooooooo travlinpom_nr: Getting big, the youngest are six weeks old now lablov_nr: I just had my bitch palpated last week. travlinpom_nr: so far, they all look very good FrogDog: I've read some info that says it's not a good idea to palpate...other info says it's perfectly safe, if you're experienced. Opinions? Rueger: oh you must have had those right when I lost chatting ability PHMorgan: I think it depends on how you do it. Rueger: Frog I palpate all my bitches at 28 days however I do know you are never supposed to palpate a cat lablov_nr: it isn't dangerous is it? PHMorgan: IT's perfectly possible to kill puppies by palpation if you are not careful travlinpom_nr: Rue, that's Lacey's litter, two black boys and a girl lablov_nr: YIKES! PHMorgan: Someone told me they kill horse and cattle twins by squashing the second fetus PHMorgan: However, to my knowledge, I've not done so PHMorgan: LOL Rueger: oh trav are pics on your site yet? travlinpom_nr: Rue, i did some updating on my site, but no pics of the new puppies yet Rueger: I am normally wihtin a puppy from what I palpate at 28 days to what is born PHMorgan: Mine is usuually 1/2 PHMorgan: Which is going to be scary - cause I palpated Z tonight at 21 days and found 5 lablov_nr: My vet palpated at 21 days...too early? Rueger: in other words I sometimes miss one LOL PHMorgan: Z is EXACTLY 21 days and the pups are discernable and about grape sized. She is a pointer. PHMorgan: Welcome to Breeder's Chat - Topic tonight is Palpation Rueger: lab lots of people cna palpate at 21 I tend to get a more accurate answer at 28 days but htat is just me Rueger: hey yarnell yarnell_nr: hi everyone FrogDog: is palpation in leu of x-ray or ultrasound? Or just to find out if the bitch is pregnant to begin with? lablov_nr: Ok...whew...nervous nellie here...it's her first litter. travlinpom_nr: hmmm, well, i will jump in . . . I dont palpate, i think it is dangerous and I dont see a point to doing it to begin with PHMorgan: This is the first time I've successfully palpated this early. Usually I can find them by 25-28 days and they are more golf ball sized Rueger: mine are walnut size at 28 days Rueger: trav what makes you think it is dangerous? PHMorgan: I use palpation to determine pregnancy. If I'm unsuccessful, and I'm uncertain if the bitch is pregnant, then I ultrasound. I always x-ray if she's pregnant the week before she delivers travlinpom_nr: Rue, in toy dogs (i dont know about other breeds) you can indeed damge the puppy travlinpom_nr: this is also the belief of my vet Rueger: I also palpate to see if pregant I either ultrasound or x-ray later in pregnancy though too PHMorgan: I think you can damage the puppy in any breed PHMorgan: It's not a thing to be undertaken lightly lablov_nr: Anyone done the blood test to determine pregnancy? FrogDog: are the blood tests accurate?? Rueger: now that is one test my vet will not ever use he thinks it is just not accurate PHMorgan: No - ultrasound gives you more information, and for ME, its' the same cost, and both can't be done until about 28 days. PHMorgan: It's accurate AFTER 28 days lablov_nr: The one I had done sure was! I had a litter of seven. PHMorgan: The hormone measured is called Relaxin, and it's produced by the fetuses, but not in quantity to be measured until that time Rueger: but at 28 days we already knw through palpation or ultrasound LOL lablov_nr: No ultrasound available for me, and I HAD to know! LOL PHMorgan: WB, Jade Rueger: WB Jade Jade_Green: ty Rueger: ok see the ultrasound is a lot cheaper for me than the pregnancy test and easily acesible PHMorgan: Rueger THAT is why I palpate. I can't stand NOT to (It's so cool) and it's free... For me, ultrasound is a way to make sure if I've come up empty lablov_nr: This time with my other bitch we could determine through pakpation that she was pregnant. The first bitch, no... lablov_nr: oops..that's palpation... Rueger: Morgan I palpate to see if I should schedule an ultrasound LOL Rueger: if I don PHMorgan: Z is the easiest to palpate. 1) she trusts me implicitly so is relaxed. 2) she's BIG 3) she's usallly got a BIG litter Rueger: if I don't feel anything I then ultrasound to be certain PHMorgan: So anyone wann know how to do it? Jade_Green: yes travlinpom_nr: I'll catch you all later Rueger: nite Trav PHMorgan: Bye trav lablov_nr: Yes, that would be cool. I'd be nervous about hurting the babies! Rueger: sure morgan tell us how you palpate PHMorgan: This must be done very carefully. YOu want to feel but not compress at ALL. PHMorgan: What you do, dependson the size of your bitch. I would NOT attempt this with a toy dog, as my hands are large PHMorgan: Medium sized breeds are beset PHMorgan: best PHMorgan: The bitch must be standing, and relaxed PHMorgan: It's a good idea to stand her up, and rub her back and her belly for a few minutes to relax her PHMorgan: then, what I do is GENTLY place my hand around her belly from underneath.... Rueger: oh I do mine laying on side LOL PHMorgan: YOu are feeling for the uterus, which is a long narrow tubelike structure, lying along the back of the bitch, with the intestines filling in below. PHMorgan: So you must gently gently gently reach up towards the bitch's spine to find the uterus (later it might be further down, but at 21 days, the fetuses are smaller and the uterus lies higher Rueger: Hey toxic welcome to breeders chat tongihts topic palpation PHMorgan: then carefully, beginning EITHER at teh pelvis OR the ribcage, bring your fingers together, allowing the insides of the bitch to slide gently through your fingers Toxic_nr: ty rueger PHMorgan: A puppy will feel HARD and Slippery, and usually quite round. Toxic_nr: so what is everyone a breeder of tonight Toxic_nr: lol PHMorgan: The litter will lie along the uterus like pearls on a string Rueger: Toxic shelties here PHMorgan: So, if you've found the uterus, and a puppy, you want to allow the puppy you've located to easily slide through your fingers and you might find another, another, another Toxic_nr: ohhh nice cute dogs FrogDog: eek, I'd be too afraid of hurting a puppy! lablov_nr: me too PHMorgan: The idea is to allow them to slip through your fingers, not try to hold onto them. Like reading braille, not like pushing buttons Rueger: now I do it every litter and never had a problem PHMorgan: Did I say GENTLY? PHMorgan: IT's definitely not for the clumsy, the impatient, or the rough-handed PHMorgan: Many vets cannot do this PHMorgan: It takes very sensitive fingers Rueger: and the girls must be relaxed PHMorgan: I've been able to successfully do this on every pregnant bitch I've palpated at the right time Rueger: if they tense up their muscles you cannot palpate lablov_nr: hmmm...my vet found at least three at 21 days. I'm kind of itching to give it a try though at 28 days. PHMorgan: The bitch will likely tense up the moment you being to "prod" her, so you have to feel gently as they inhale and exhale - this will affect their muscle tone and the way the insides move PHMorgan: 28 days is somewhat easier as they are bigger FrogDog: that might make my girl hard to palpate...lots of abdominal muscle PHMorgan: In a lab, I've palpated at 28 days and the pups have been as large as a racket ball PHMorgan: Mine have rock-hard abdominal muscle, but they will relax and allow me to reach up over that muscle lablov_nr: But, still am nervous about it. Wow...a racket ball!!? PHMorgan: This cannot be done on a resistant bitch - just can't be PHMorgan: Keep in mind that at 28 days, you are 1/2 way through the pregnancy, and at birth, a lab puppy will have a HEAD the size of a racketball (about) plus the body which might make up 2 racketballs PHMorgan: AND the puupy is encased in his puppy sac, the uterus, the skin of the btich, etc. - So it feels bigger than it is lablov_nr: Oh yes. My first litter were all 16 oz. or close to it! Rueger: I had a litter of 5 16 oz puppies in a 22 lb bitch 2yrs ago LOL PHMorgan: Mine too lablov_nr: I can see the racket ball analogy! LOL PHMorgan: Wow - she musta been really uncomfortable PHMorgan: Funny thing the last time at the vet PHMorgan: Welcome to Breeder's Chat - Topic tonight is Palpation FrogDog: poor girl!! PHMorgan: We took Z in for a check-up before the breeding, and they weighed her.... Minuet: Hi! Rueger: Hey Min PHMorgan: Said, gee, she's only 66 lbs... last time she was in, she was 90 PHMorgan: I said, yeah, last time she was 3 days away from delivering a litter of 10 pups, and she was here for the x-ray.... LOL lablov_nr: My bitch looked like she would pop on any sharp object she brushed against. LOL She was HUGE! Jade_Green: 10 ...wow PHMorgan: So, any questions about the HOW of palpation? Jade_Green: since im new and her to learn i have one Jade_Green: here* PHMorgan: Fire awy Jade_Green: i dont think id try this.but how would u ever tell on a small toy dog PHMorgan: away, even Rueger: Morgan that girl of mine had to have a c-section by the way LOL PHMorgan: I personally would not try this on a small dog. I have extremely large hands. PHMorgan: Guess, so, Reug! lablov_nr: Mine too...LOL She never did pop. :-) PHMorgan: Z did not, altho it took her over 14 hours to deliver them all lablov_nr: Cute smiley face! FrogDog: Rueger, what breed??? Rueger: I have very long thin fingers so I can palpate a smaller dog by just using light touch with fingertips only but it takes yrs of practice to be able to do that PHMorgan: I would suspect that you COUDL palpate a toy breed, but that the pups would be very very tiny Rueger: Shelties frogdog PHMorgan: By the way, puppies feel like a marble in a plastic bag fully of jello PHMorgan: Poop feels like poops FrogDog: 16oz puppies?!?! in a Sheltie?? Jade_Green: is there a site i can look at unborn puppies PHMorgan: I don't know of one Rueger: there morgan new avatar LOL PHMorgan: A good book with great photos is Canine Reproduction by Phyllis Holst PHMorgan: A great resource. Very informative and technical, but also readable lablov_nr: So, the uterus will be lying closer to the spine? Is that right? Not dropped a little at 28 days? Rueger: oh I love that book PHMorgan: At 28 days it will have begun to fold on itself if the litter is large and might be anywhere Rueger: Hi dropfred PHMorgan: earlier, it will be lying where it normally is, just below the spine Jade_Green: ill check ebay for one PHMorgan: Welcome to Breeder's Chat - Topic tonight is Palpation lablov_nr: Ok, thanks. Rueger: Jade amazon often sells them used also PHMorgan: On a large, barrel chested dog like a lab, some folks use both hands. Jade_Green: oh ok dropfred: hello all, just popping in to see what is going on !! Rueger: good place to get used books at good price PHMorgan: YOu place one on each side of the bitch, high up, and bring your hands SLOWLY and GENTLY together PHMorgan: Again - start either ribcage or pelvis and gently work forward lablov_nr: I'd sell you my copy , but I don't think you'd want it. The bottom left corner is chewed off! I still use it often. LOL dropfred: hey, where'd you guys get the really cool dogs in front of your names? Love the pointer !!! PHMorgan: I have two copies, but I keep misplacing one or the other so I need both Jade_Green: lol..the best kind full of memories every time u opne it PHMorgan: YES PHMorgan: I am SOOOO excited about Z's litter. lablov_nr: Ok, Morgan, I just may give it a try... Rueger: Morgan I expect an e-mail right away to tell me what she had lablov_nr: I was going to ask that too dropfred Rueger: next to the box where you type there is a chess piece like guy dropfred: ok. Rueger: click on him and choose you avatar then hit ok at he bottom of that page PHMorgan: Everyone will know PHMorgan: Cause I will probably be trying to host this chat will supervising - she'll be due on a Tuesday FrogDog: darn it...no Frenchies, What has the world come to?! Rueger: well remember I am back up so if you need to run jus tyell out LOL PHMorgan: I will warn everyone the week before Minuet: k lablov_nr: Ok...trying the picture this time Minuet: We lost Morgan :-( dropfred: gee, can't find one I really like.....guess I will stay a little chess piece..lol. Rueger: oh now we lost our host oh well we can take over call it a mutinay LOL lablov_nr: Yay...it worked! Is that a lab? Weird eyes and choco. I only do yellows and blacks. Rueger: close enough lab LOL lablov_nr: Morgan where are you? Oh Captain? Minuet: Gotta go....dogs want out Minuet: nite Rueger: nite minuet lablov_nr: Yep, Rueger, close enough...oh well. Rueger: ok so back on palpating LOL PHMorgan: Sorry - no idea what that was lablov_nr: nite minuet Rueger: sure Morgan LOL Toxic_nr: HEllo i had a question is head tilting a trait common in all breeds of dogs? PHMorgan: I think it's common in most ANIMALS Rueger: can you explain what you mean by head tilting? Toxic_nr: when your talking to your dog he looks confused and TILTs his head Toxic_nr: lol FrogDog: running around with their head tilted and running in circles? or the really cute king? FrogDog: kind Rueger: oh ok yeah I think htat is just as we do when we talk Rueger: it shows our expression with body language Jade_Green: lol they do it so to look like they listen and are part human.i think anyways Toxic_nr: do all dogs go threw a TEENAGE phase? lablov_nr: singing and baby talk get 'em tilting every time! PHMorgan: I think it's an all-around animal trait - all dogs and cats do it. Most herd type animals can be seen to do it at some point PHMorgan: Toxic -sure Rueger: dogs also use body langauge much more often tna verbal langage Jade_Green: i have a question about body lanuage PHMorgan: So - do we have more questions about palpation? Rueger: hah I have 90 teenage pups right now I am ready to kill them all LOL Rueger: not 90 only 9 lol typo LOL PHMorgan: 90 or 9? PHMorgan: LOL Jade_Green: one of my dogs wants up..when u reach over to pick her up .she rolls over PHMorgan: Seems like 90 Toxic_nr: what age does a PUPPY become a TEENAGER PHMorgan: Jade - that is submission FrogDog: I don't know...still working through the "terrible 2" stage lablov_nr: Have you ever heard of any one losing any pups from palpation? PHMorgan: You can just encourage her to stand up again PHMorgan: Lab -I'm not sure you can tell about that Rueger: Jae all my girls do that I hate that PHMorgan: since most folks who do it don't do anything else FIRST lablov_nr: Yeah, duh, really how would you know. Sorry, that was a dumb question. PHMorgan: so they haven't a count - not that most vets can accurately count based on ultrasound, and certainly not based on blood test Jade_Green: i figured it might be submission.but how do i get her to understand she doesnt need to roll over and its easier for me to pick her up standing PHMorgan: Not dumb PHMorgan: Jade- don't make eye contact, and encourage her PHMorgan: If she rolls over, don't pick her up Rueger: Jae I encourgae my girls to put front feet on my knees when i want to pick them up I did so with training FrogDog: so an x-ray is more accurate than ultrasound? PHMorgan: Frog - it can be Rueger: Frog to get numbers yes Jade_Green: ok Rueger: but an ultrasound can be done earlier lablov_nr: An x-ray done on my bitch showed 5, but she had 7. Two were hiding way up. PHMorgan: Because an ultrasound is of a 3 dimensional space, but uses a 2 dimensional screen, it's hard to know if you've already looked at that puppy PHMorgan: But as Lab says, x-rays can be incorrect, too PHMorgan: Z's last litter, x-ray said 8, according to vet, I saw 9, there were 10 FrogDog: hmmm.... PHMorgan: So for me, I use palpation to determine pregnancy. If I can't successfully palpate, I will ultrasound to find out if she's pregnant. PHMorgan: Then later I ALWAYs x-ray. For one thing, I usually have large pups, and I want to know HOW large. For two, it's nice to know if you are having 1, 4 or 10. Then you know if she quits during delivery if she's maybe done, almost done or totallY NOT DONE lablov_nr: Once I knew she was pregnant from palpation, I will wit and x-ray a week before delivery to get a "rough" idea how many there are. PHMorgan: For me, you can't have too much informaiton when whelping a litter PHMorgan: Exactly lablov_nr: that's wait.. PHMorgan: Hiya, Mow PHMorgan: Welcome to Breeder's Chat - Topic tonight is Palpation lablov_nr: I agree! FrogDog: I've been contemplating letting my girl try to free whelp, with the vet on-call. X-ray is sounding like the most accurate. PHMowgli: Hey Morgan PHMorgan: Welcome to Breeder's Chat - Topic tonight is Palpation PHMorgan: Hey folks, we need a topic for next week... Suggestions? PHMowgli: Morgan how to kill 9 puppies and not feel remorse? PHMorgan: I'm trying to pick some pretty specific topics because we have been busier and we are going into more detail PHMowgli: that one will work for me LOL FrogDog: selecting for free whelping? :-) lablov_nr: If you have a rough delivery and the bitch isn't progressing..an x-ray can also determine if there is a stuck pup in the canal, holding things. I've been there! PHMorgan: I can usually feel that, Lab, but yes, x-ray can tell you that lablov_nr: Meant to say, holding things up... PHMorgan: We got one vote for Selecting for Free Whelping. Any other suggestions? Votes? lablov_nr: The vet couldn't feel a thing! She was really blocked, higher up. PHMorgan: My vet probably woulda just done the section without the x-ray PHMorgan: Just a comment... FrogDog: did the stuck puppy make it alright, lab? PHMorgan: OK - so we got Frog's suggestion, any others? PHMorgan: I had one so stuck the vet had to PEEL the uterus off him to deliver him PHMorgan: Brat from before DAY 1! LOL lablov_nr: No, unfortunately, we lost 4 of the pups.:-( FrogDog: well that's not very encouraging.... lablov_nr: Sorry...but it happens. Very sad, indeed! PHMorgan: ARG PHMorgan: That sucks lablov_nr: Has the topic of birth defects been done? I'm thinking cleft palates, etc. PHMorgan: Lab - keep that topic - we;ll do it soon lablov_nr: Yes, Morgan. It totally sucked! FrogDog: generally, how much time do you have to get to the vet for a section, once a puppy gets stuck? PHMorgan: It really depends PHMorgan: IF the placenta hasn't yet detached, you have more time PHMorgan: If it has, you have less FrogDog: or the bitch has uterine inertia PHMorgan: There's no right answer PHMorgan: I've done the section within an hour of the last puppy, and nearly 4 hours after bitch begin pushing lablov_nr: a lot of second guessing yourself... PHMorgan: NEver lost a pup, but probably just luck PHMorgan: Hello ker PHMorgan: Welcome to Breeder's Chat - Topic tonight is Palpation PHMorgan: You really have to know how to read stress signs in a delivery PHMorgan: Know your bitch. Know exactly what is to happen and when Kerplunk105: Oh, hm...wrong chat than...:) Thanks! PHMorgan: Keep good records of puppy deliveries PHMorgan: Kerp - it is almost Showdogs PHMorgan: Vet will need to know when last pup was delivered, when she began pushing again PHMorgan: Z had nearly 4 hours between her 9th and 10th pups last time, but 3 of it was naptime PHMorgan: I was just beginning to worry when she woke up and went back to work PHMorgan: We still nearly had to section her, but finally I was able to drag the little booger outa there PHMorgan: She almost didn't make it over the pelvic bone lablov_nr: Good for you, and cost saving too! LOL :-) lablov_nr: Sections are EXPENSIVE! PHMorgan: Mine have not been too bad PHMorgan: The worst was probably about 600 PHMorgan: Most have been less PHMorgan: NOteven the price of a puppy for me lablov_nr: Man, mine was 900! PHMorgan: That's still not bad. I would sacrifice the price of a puppy to save a litter, no regrets PHMorgan: But then, my vet bills and will wait for the money PHMorgan: I just tell him he'll get paid as soon as the babies go home. He's fine with it lablov_nr: Oh, absolutely! It's worth it! PHMorgan: But yes, it's expensive and always a risk FrogDog: I'll try to talk to other breeders with similar breeds...I've never bred a litter and have no idea what the signs of stress are lablov_nr: Nice arrangement. PHMorgan: Frog - you want a mentor to help with your first litter. Offer to be head bottle washer when your mentor whelps a few litters- the education is invaluable lablov_nr: good idea frog... PHMorgan: It's nice to know exactly what to expect PHMorgan: Whelping is tiring, messy, hot, boring and scary PHMorgan: Did I mention messy? PHMorgan: Or, smelly? PHMowgli: ok this looks better PHMorgan: LOL PHMorgan: Lotsa laundry PHMorgan: Lotsa newspaper or whatever. FrogDog: She's got a big wide rear and had strong contractions for her false pregnancy lablov_nr: LOL! FrogDog: I'm looking forward to the sleep deprivation and everything that goes with it lablov_nr: How bout a mom that doesn't want to clean her babies? The poop and pee duty! UGH! PHMorgan: I find the MORE you allow the bitch to do for herself, the more she WILL DO PHMorgan: The more you interfere, the more she will assume YOU are in charge and expect you to do EVERYTHING PHMorgan: My first litter was my spoiled baby's first litter, too lablov_nr: I went two days where mom said "NO WAY!" So, I had to! She eventually took over... PHMorgan: I cleaned the baby, kept putting her on to nurse, kept fussing and hovering. Momdog refused to clean up PHMorgan: I had to do it FrogDog: Most of the breeders I know automatically c-section, so they are not the best to ask these questions PHMorgan: BUT, the first day I went back to work, all day, gee, I came home to a clean puppy and a clean box. she knew I wasn't there to do it PHMowgli: My one girls even after 3 litters would nevr clean butts or whelpign box that was my job but she did everything else wonderfully lablov_nr: Yes, the minute she "gets" it... no more dirty box...TA DAH! PHMorgan: Frog - if your dog doesn't come from a line of free-whelpers, trying to have a natural litter will probably not be a great idea with your breed (which I assume is Frenchies) PHMorgan: I now try to be as hands-off as possible PHMorgan: I do however, make sure all pups are breathing clearly before I let mom have the baby. She can bite the cord, clean whatever, but I get to inspect and clear the airways FrogDog: Don't know if they can free-whelp....everyone automatically sections, so nobody knows lablov_nr: Good advice..I'm hoping this litter will be easier. Different mom, but it's her first litter too. PHMorgan: Frog - I'd see if you can get your vvet to allow you to try and whelp the litter IN HIS OFFICE PHMorgan: That way, no time is wasted if tehre is trouble PHMorgan: I try to supervise from outside the box, but I'm very hands on for delivery - I want the baby OUTA there ASAP. As soon as there's something to hold onto, I will help pull with each contraction to get them into the air and breathing FrogDog: Her grandfather was partially free-whelped...the litter was delivered early (the breeder wasn't there), and he got stuck FrogDog: the rest of the litter was delivered by emergency c-section...dead lablov_nr: Thanks for the advice on palpation. Gotta go now. Good Night! FrogDog: but she was able to get the puppy out that far, so inertia wasn't the problem PHMowgli: nite lab lablov_nr: I'll try and catch you next time! FrogDog: which is the main prob...not the big heads and shoulders PHMorgan: Mow - you ready? FrogDog: that's a good idea...whelping at the vet's office PHMowgli: sure am FrogDog: oops, sorry... PHMowgli: Welcome to show dog Chat PHMorgan: See ya'll next week for FREE WHELPING FrogDog: didn't realize the party had ended! PHMorgan: Nobody minds a bit of carry over, Frog! PHMorgan: :-)
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