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PHChristy: Good evening and welcome to our special Dog Breeding Chat on "New Hope in Treating Parvo."

Before I begin, I want to stress that I am NOT a veterinarian, scientist, or any kind of health care professional, and nothing in this information is intended to replace your veterinarian's advice or care.

PHMorgan: I'm going to ask everyone to hold their comments while Christy fills us in - ANyone who has a comment can type "!" and anyone witha question can type "?" and we will call on you.

PHMorgan: Naturally we will have discussion afterward

PHChristy: thank you Morgan!

PHChristy: Here we go!

PHChristy: In the 1970s, something terrible happened.

PHChristy: A new virus appeared on the scene, and it swept across the world like wildfire, killing dogs everywhere it struck. Puppies were especially hard hit, often dying within hours of the appearance of their first symptoms.

PHChristy: Breeders would notice the puppies were a bit lethargic, and by the time they got to the vet, some of the puppies would already be dead. Entire kennels and breeding programs were wiped out overnight.

PHChristy: Veterinarians were nearly helpless at first, and even when they got a grip on what was happening, still had very little to offer stricken puppies and their desperate owners.

PHChristy: Over time, the virus became less fast-acting but remained deadly.

PHChristy: Most infected puppies required extraordinary and expensive medical care to survive, and very young puppies rarely did, as the virus infected the rapidly dividing cells of the heart. Still, survival rates climbed and most adult dogs were now immune.

PHChristy: Since the new virus, called canine parvovirus, appeared to be a mutated version of the feline panleukopenia virus, some veterinarians began to vaccinate dogs with that cat vaccine, with some success.

PHChristy: Soon a canine parvovirus vaccine was developed, and it was hoped that would spell the end of the worst threat of the disease, as the FPV vaccine had for cats.

PHChristy: Unfortunately, as most dog breeders know, it turned out that CPV maternal antibodies, which prevented successful vaccination, were particularly persistent, sometimes lasting as long as 16 weeks or even more. These puppies had too much maternal antibody to be immunized, but not enough to be protected from the disease.

PHChristy: New vaccines, called "high titer" vaccines, were developed, in order to overcome these persistent maternal antibodies. Still, many breeders found that no matter how hard they tried, they were unable to protect their puppies from parvovirus.

PHChristy: Shelters and rescue groups continued to have huge losses of young dogs to the virus.

PHChristy: Few words strike such deadly fear in the heart of breeders and shelter workers as "Parvo."

PHChristy: Now... cut away to a different area of veterinary medicine, halfway around the world.

Scientists were interested in a bacterial disease in Nigerian cattle, known as "blackleg disease." This is a disease caused by the bacteria Clostridium chauvoei.

PHChristy: Nomads who kept cattle in Nigeria fed them a certain plant that was found to inhibit an enzyme vital to the spread of clostridium, neuraminidase, thus preventing the disease.

sheka_nr: sorry

PHChristy: Neuraminidase inibitors were studied and developed to combat mucosal infections in humans, with varying degrees of success. One such drug is the drug Tamiflu (oseltamivir), used to treat early influenza infections in humans.

PHChristy: In the last year, vets in small animal practice, primarily in shelters, began to experiment with Tamiflu in the treatment of parvo in dogs and panluekopenia in cats, and reported surprising success.

PHChristy: While it is not known if parvo itself relies on neuraminidase to reproduce, it may be that the bacteria that are responsible for the actual deadly symptoms of CPV do.

PHChristy: What do I mean by that? Canine parvovirus and its close cousin feline panleukopenia virus share more than a common ancestry.

PHChristy: In kittens raised in a laboratory to be bacteria-free, the panleukopenia virus doesn't make them sick. It appears that in both diseases, it's not so much the virus itself that kills, but the effect of the normal bacteria present in every animal.

powwow_nr: wow

PHChristy: There may be some kind of relationship between the virus and bacteria that creates the symptoms that neither alone can produce.

PHChristy: It may simply be that the virally-damaged mucosal immune system cannot prevent bacteria from growing and reproducing to dangerous levels.

PHChristy: It may be that neuraminidase interferes with some of the body's own natural infection-fighting actions.

PHChristy: Or there may be some other mechanism(s) by which inhibiting this enzyme stops the effects of certain types of infection.

PHChristy: Whatever the reason, vets are discovering that, given when symptoms first appear, Tamiflu seems often to stop parvo in its tracks.

sheka_nr: YAY!

powwow_nr: cool

mailepom_nr: !

PHChristy: mailepom, ga

PHMorgan: Go ahead, Mailepom

powwow_nr: a very good job

mailepom_nr: what they've found is that the virus damages the intestinal mucosa to the point where the barrier that keeps bacteria from getting into the bloodstream is destroyed

sheka_nr: do we have to do the, ?, ! thing now?

PHMorgan: Yes, now is fine, Sheka

mailepom_nr: and the reason that most parvo cases die is due to bacteremia and systemic infection

powwow_nr: YES

PHChristy: mailepom, yes, but they are not sure which mechanism is being used by Tamiflu that might interefer with that

sheka_nr: so many big words..Lol

sheka_nr: Im no vet lol

powwow_nr: im lost

PHChristy: Let me go on and we'll be glad to translate after, powwow!

mailepom_nr: this Tamiflu is new to me, I'm very interested in hearing about it

PHChristy: OK, continuing...

PHChristy: While vets in private practice are still giving conventional parvo treatment along with the Tamiflu (IV fluids, antibiotics, hospitalization, etc.) to patients whose owners can afford it, these treatments were never available to the pets of people without large amounts of money to spend, nor to shelter dogs.

PHChristy: Many dogs are being treated with Tamiflu and recovering rapidly with home care only.

PHChristy: Cost of this treatment? About $40 per dog.

PHChristy: I'll let that sink in.... before I begin with the disclaimers.

PHMowgli: ?

PHMorgan: GA, Mow

donnalegalp: What is Tamiflu and where would you get it? Is it perscription?

seawindbt: ?

PHMowgli: how often they use hte tamiflu? and for how many days are the dogs given it if you know

sheka_nr: y do i suddenly not want a puppy...

PHChristy: hang on... am getting to that

PHMowgli: ok sorry I jumped the gun

PHChristy: Now, the disclaimers:

PHChristy: None of this has been studied. All these reports are strictly anecdotal from shelter experience and some private veterinary practice.

PHMorgan: GA, Seawind - your question (CHristy will answer the "how & where" questions later

PHChristy: As far as I have been able to discover, no study or trial has yet been announced, although there are ongoing efforts to organize one or more in the near future. Many things have appeared incredibly promising at this stage and gone on to be impractical or disappointing when subjected to more complete examination.

seawindbt: i'll wait

PHChristy: Tamiflu is available by prescription only.

PHChristy: The dosages that you get for humans are not the right dosage for dogs.

PHChristy: Tamiflu is not approved or formulated for small animals and needs to be compounded by a compounding pharmacist or put into suspension by you veterinarian.

PHChristy: Once put in suspension it has a VERY short shelf life so it cannot be done in advance.

donnalegalp: Do most vets know about this?

PHChristy: It will not reverse the disease when it is advanced and the puppies are deathly ill. At that point, there is too much tissue damage and the puppy is not likely to be helped by this treatment.

PHChristy: donna, getting to that too! just hang on :)

PHChristy: If you want to have it on hand to treat puppies you will need to work it out with your vet BEFORE you need it, as it needs to be given at the earliest possible stage of the disease to have its greatest benefit.

PHMorgan: LEt's let Christy FInis - there isn't much more and then we can get to all your questions... :-)

PHChristy: Your vet may not know about this drug yet. You can refer him or her to the following article:

Tamiflu for Parvo

PHChristy: If your vet is a member of the Veterinary Information Network, they should be able to find good information on the use of Tamiflu, including dosages, there (http://www.vin.com, subscription service for veterinarians only).

PHChristy: OK, to answer the question about how long you give it for, it's twice a day for 5 days. I don't feel comfortable giving out dosage information but your veterinarian can get that if he or she investigates this.

PHChristy: OK, are there any other questions or comments?

PHMowgli: that's fine christy the info you gave me is enough I was curios the term of the use of the meds more than doseage

PHMorgan: WB Sunapeedog

PHChristy: five days, twice a day is the usual course. It costs, on average, $40 per dog, although of course that will vary depending on the size of the dog.

PHMowgli: right

PHChristy: still, compared with hundreds or thousands, which many people cannot afford and shelters never can.... it's kind of amazing

PHMowgli: of course I plan to never need this info now that I know about it LOL

PHChristy: amazing

PHChristy: I have heard that some shelters are buying it by the caseload, and are using it also to treat kennel cough

VAL911K9: Christy, do you know what the original use of this drug was? and the side effects that we would need to be worried about?

PHMowgli: ok another question christy LOL

PHChristy: Val, it is a human flu drug.

VAL911K9: ok thanks

PHMowgli: how about the new OTC drug osillococinum?

PHChristy: the side effects in dogs are not known

seawindbt: how easy is this for the vets to get? I mean, I tired to fill a perscription for Calphosan injectible for Pre-esclampsia and couldn't get it anywhere a few years ago (even though vet did give prescription)

PHChristy: oscilo is a homeopathic remedy made from duck liver

doglover_nr: hey everyone

VAL911K9: we have used that for humans for a few years

PHMowgli: yes and it appears to work on influenza's

doglover_nr: hey donna, rouen

PHChristy: seawind, it's usually quite easy to get, at any human pharmacy. Some smaller drugstores don't have it on hand when it's not flu season, so it's something you'd want to set up BEFORE you need it, if possible

PHChristy: Val, that's right

seawindbt: thanks

PHChristy: with flu, it just cuts the course of the disease down by a couple of days... of course, flu is not as serious or systemic as parvo

sunapeedog: ?

PHChristy: sunapeed, ga!

VAL911K9: Christy you said shelf life is short in suspension, is it longer in original form?

PHChristy: LOL, sorry for dropping the "og"! My hands are getting kind of crampy from all that typing

sunapeedog: Christy, could you post the website for vets to refer to again? I got bounced off!

PHChristy: Val, yes, in original form it lasts a normal amount of time (not sure of exact length)

PHChristy: http://www.marvistavet.com/html/body_oseltamivir.html

PHChristy: if your vet needs more info than that, they might want to contact Dr. Brooks, or if they belong to the Veterinary Information Network, they can get the information there as well

PHMorgan: NIght Rouen

VAL911K9: ?

PHMorgan: GA< Val

VAL911K9: do you have the contact info for Dr Brooks - I know my vet is not on line with VIN

PHChristy: Dr. Brooks’ contact info is on that site....

PHChristy: on the home page

PHMorgan: We can post our comments & questions freel now - unless it gets too crazy - please give Christy a chance to answer.

VAL911K9: ok I will print it thanks

PHChristy: Mar Vista Animal Medical Center
3850 Grand View Blvd.
Los Angeles, CA 90066

PHChristy: Dr. Wendy Brooks

VAL911K9: :) your great girl

Valkyrie: I wish vets would get as excited as we do.

PHChristy: Val, so true!

donnalegalp: About how long would it take for a vet to get this drug?

sunapeedog: thanks, Christy!

PHChristy: donna, if they order it from a supplier, probably a week or less.

PHChristy: they can give you a prescription to take to any human pharmacy

donnalegalp: What did you say the shelf life was?

PHChristy: once it's been compounded or put into supsension, just a few days

PHChristy: however, a vet can show you how to put it into suspension at home

PHChristy: so you could hold on to it

PHMorgan: Christy - how early does one have to get this started for it to work?

PHChristy: some shelters mix it with pancake syrup, I've heard

PHMorgan: Meaning - how early in the disease?

PHMorgan: EW

PHChristy: Morgan, ideally ASAP, within the first 48 hours

PHMorgan: OK - so for our additional information, can you tell us the signs of Parvo?

PHChristy: the usual first sign is lethargy

donnalegalp: What if my vet wont give me a perscription?

PHMorgan: I'm sure some of us are familiar with them....

PHChristy: donna, it's something you need to work out in advance, when you have time to get your vet aware of this

PHChristy: the most noticeable signs of vomiting and diarrhea

PHMorgan: I plan to bring it up in conversation next time I am there

PHMorgan: :-D

donnalegalp: Ok thank you so much, wish i would have known about all this a few months ago.

PHChristy: since there is intestinal bleeding, there is a smell of blood in the vomit and diarrhea that is very distinctive

PHMowgli: me too morgan next week LOL

sunapeedog: I think I'll send the link to my vet!

PHChristy: we breeders know it as the "parvo smell" and once you've smelled it, you will never forget it

PHMowgli: coppery

PHChristy: yes

sunapeedog: Christy, did you say you're working on an article about this?

PHChristy: when bloodwork is done, the puppies will be leukopenic

PHChristy: sunapeedog, you bet... it will be on my personal website

PHChristy: but I wanted to save it for this chat first

sunapeedog: Great!

PHMorgan: We are getting the SCOOP here, guys... :-)

donnalegalp: can i have your website address?

PHMowgli: and we are glad you did

PHChristy: I'll create a transcript of this chat that will be on DogHobbyist as well

PHChristy: my personal website is http://www.caberfeidh.com

donnalegalp: Thanks

PHChristy: the people I know in shelters are really very excited over this

PHMorgan: Keep in mind folks, this is all experimental and you will need to direct your vet to the site if they are unaware of it. STudies have not even been done yet, as Christy mentioned

PHChristy: and as I said, they are using it on kennel cough also, as kennel cough is also a mucosal disease complicated with bacterial "superinfections"

PHChristy: that's right, there have been NO STUDIES IN DOGS OR CATS

PHChristy: this is all just anecdotal out of shelters and a few private vets

seawindbt: so is it referred to as Tamiful or Oseltamivir ?? Web site uses both terms.

seawindbt: Tamilful, sorry typo

PHChristy: seawind, Tamiflu is the brand name, Oseltamivir is the chemical name

donnalegalp: Christy,Have you yourslf used this drug on pups? If so has it worked for oyu?

PHChristy: there is no generic yet, so you will be buying Tamiflu

seawindbt: shees, dog on my lap makes it hard to type :-) Thanks

PHMorgan: Companies like to confuse us all with multiple names

PHChristy: donna, no, I have not had pups with parvo for 13 years!

PHChristy: thank god knock on wood etc

PHChristy: so I did not have the opportunity to try it, but I would have loved to

PHChristy: one thing you can do, if you have one pup break first, you can treat the other exposed but not yet sick puppies in the litter

PHChristy: I can tell you, when I sat there watching my puppies wondering if they'd get sick after the first one did... I'd have loved to have had this drug to give them

PHMorgan: This information just tells us again how important it is to get any sick puppies to the vet RIGHT AWAY

PHChristy: but also to work this out with your vet IN ADVANCE

PHMorgan: Delaying and hemming and hawing can cost you an entire litter, not just the one sick puppy

PHChristy: I can't even imagine arguing with some ER vet about a drug they've never heard of in the middle of the night

PHMorgan: And you dont want to spend a couple of days convincing your vet after it's too late that you should have this treatment

PHMorgan: RIGHT

PHChristy: as breeders, part of our planning needs to be using this information BEFORE we need it

PHMorgan: My vet is really good about providing things ahead of time and knowing I will contact him for advice before using it

donnalegalp: I'm calling my vet tomarrow to see if i can get it to have it on hand IN CASE!

PHChristy: donna, I will definitely do that with my next litter!

PHMorgan: I keep quite a lot of treatments on hand when I plan a litter, for both whelping AND treating babies

PHMowgli: ok here but honestly do you really thinkmost vtes will prescribe something that has never even had a trial yet?

sunapeedog: Christy, I checked out the Mar-Vista site, and there's no dosing info there. So, you said that info is on the Veterinary Info Network?

PHChristy: Mowgli, if they have the chance to check it out, yes

PHMowgli: most vets*

PHChristy: many human drugs have not been tested on dogs but are used in vet practice all the time

PHMowgli: I know mine will but I also know of many who would say oh geez get a life

PHMorgan: Hiya, Wez!

donnalegalp: Very true

PHChristy: Wez!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

VetWez: Hey all!!!

Yorkiebrdr: WEZ!!!!!

PHMowgli: Hey Wez

VetWez: Yorkie!!!

donnalegalp: My vet wouldnt even prescrip lactate ringers for me a few months back.

PHChristy: sunappedog, yes, the dosing info is on VIN for your vet, or they can contact Dr. Wendy Brooks, whose website that is

PHChristy: donna, perhaps a new vet? someone who can work with you more flexibly?

sunapeedog: TY!

PHChristy: I get ringers for my CRF cat all the time, it's quite commonly prescribed.

PHMowgli: I got my vet to join VIN just so I get him to be a bit more open minded LOL

donnalegalp: Yes i think a new vet next time. I use to work at a vets office and I know I can give fluids myself

PHChristy: LOL Mow, good move

PHChristy: well, subQ fluids are not as effective as IV for something like parvo

PHChristy: there is no comparison

PHChristy: So, Wez... Morgan says you had not heard about Tamiflu for parvo and feline panluekopenia?

PHChristy: er, panleukopenia. Sorry, it's been a long night typing.

VetWez: Christy...no, I hadn't...doesn't mean it doesn't work, but as a virologist/vaccinologist who doesn't get out much, it's driving me CRAZY trying to figure out how it might affect viral replication

PHChristy: ::::::dunking hands in ice bath:::::::::::

VetWez: influenza is an enveloped, RNA virus....parvo is a nonenveloped DNA virus...not a lot in common

PHChristy: Wez, it does effect viral reproduction in viruses that rely on the enzyme it inhibits

PHChristy: however, that's not the main theory of how it works in parvo

VetWez: It inhibits neuraminidase, which I didn't think parvo owned

PHChristy: Wez, you know how in laboratory-raised kittens with no bacteria... being infected with FPV doesn't make them sick?

VetWez: in fact, I can almost SEE the viral capsid pieces of parvo (I used to really know this stuff)...

PHChristy: but if they are normal kittens with normal GI bacteria.... they get very sick

PHChristy: it may be not the VIRUS that is being impacted, but rather the BACTERIA

VetWez: Oh...so it's doing something to gut flora, not the viruses themselves

PHChristy: right

PHMorgan: Welcome to Breeder Chat! Topic is: A New Treatment for Parvo.

VetWez: okay, I feel better now

PHChristy: because this virus does not appear to cause much in the way of symptoms in the total absence of bacteria

parakeet: hey mow

PHChristy: LOL Wez, realize I'm not saying this IS how it works... it's just a speculation

PHMowgli: hm so it is working like an antibacterial internally?

PHMorgan: Christy - how recent is this information? MOnths? Years?

PHChristy: this is all anecdotal our of mostly shelter practices

PHMowgli: hey keet

PHMorgan: Wondering what longterm is

parakeet: gg bb later

PHChristy: Morgan, less than a year

PHChristy: OUT of mostly shelter practices

VetWez: anecdotal....that explains why I couldn't find a publication

PHChristy: I can type, I swear it

PHMorgan: Right - there aren't any yet

PHChristy: Wez, I heard a rumor that there is a study starting at Auburn

PHChristy: but was not able to confirm it today

PHChristy: I left a message but am not sure if I'll get a call back as I'm not a vet, perhaps you'd have better luck

VetWez: Well, I have my sources at Auburn

PHChristy: LOL

PHMorgan: So - wez, without any studies done, what would be your guess about any side effects from trying this treatment?

PHChristy: well, give it a shot and tell me

VetWez: In fact, I think I have blackmail material on my sources at Auburn

PHMorgan: OH goody... :-)

PHChristy: I doubt there will be any significant side effects given the short term we're giving it, however, it's impossible to know

VetWez: (of course, the sources probably have blackmail material on me, too)

PHMorgan: I know i do

donnalegalp: WEZ:Please let usall know

PHChristy: one of the vets I spoke to about this said there had been one accidental overdose at a shelter and the puppy was fine

PHMorgan: Hehe

PHChristy: LOL Wez

PHMowgli: he he he

donnalegalp: I mean the info you find out. Not the blackmail stuff.

PHChristy: LOL donna

donnalegalp: lol

PHMorgan: I want both

PHMowgli: ha ha morgan

VetWez: As I recall from human stuff, it's a pretty safe drug...

PHChristy: yup, it is

VetWez: The blackmail stuff will be WAY more interesting, I think

PHChristy: it's not actually all that effective for influenza in humans

donnalegalp: I'm an investigator so if i can help, just let me know.

PHChristy: although it does have activity

PHChristy: Wez, they are also using it on kennel cough

PHMowgli: wez do you think many vtes would be willing to prescribe even though there are not any studies published yet?

PHMowgli: vets*

donnalegalp: Yeah but you need to keep that secret so you can use it to yuor advantage..

PHChristy: I think if we give our vets advance notice to investigate it, and talk to their colleagues, they will feel much more comfortable working with it. But if we dump it on them with no notice, desperate, I wouldn't blame them for not wanting to prescribe it. JMO.

VetWez: Mowgli, it depends...most of us spend our lives prescribing drugs that are officially "off label use" in animals, and in dire straits, well, I would try lots of stuff

donnalegalp: Exactly Wez.

VetWez: it just can't veer too close to voodoo

PHMorgan: LOL

Yorkiebrdr: Hey what's wrong with Voodoo?

VetWez: donna, you said you are an investigator? What do you investigate?

PHChristy: this is speculative but it isn't voodoo... just a new idea that still needs testing.

PHMowgli: ok so we won't burn the tail feathers of a golden hawk as we prescribe LOL

PHMorgan: My vet WOULD support voodoo if he had no other options

PHMorgan: :-)

VAL911K9: ok Christy, so they are saying if we get one pup that is infected we treat them and can safely treat the others profolacticly immediately?

PHChristy: Val, yes

PHMorgan: Just curious about percentage of incidents, mortality rate, survival rates, etc.

PHMowgli: I was thinking fatality rates

PHMorgan: I don't know Wez, I seem to remember him practically arriving with that name

PHMorgan: I do'nt know of any breeder in recent years to have it, so I was curious what teh current incident rate is, if there was one

PHChristy: Wendy Brooks says on her site that in her hospital, more than 90 percent survive

PHMowgli: hey emme

donnalegalp: I had 5 pups with parvo a few months ago, 4 died

PHMorgan: IWelcome to Breeder Chat! Topic is: A New Treatment for Parvo.

VetWez: morgan, mowgli....obviously incidence rates are going to differ with exposure and vaccination coverage....survival rates will depend on lots of things, like nutritional status, breed, aggressiveness of treatment

PHChristy: but that is with major treatment, hospitalization, IV fluids, etc

PHMowgli: I got two pups 9 yrs ago with parvo they both lived

PHChristy: shelters lose half or more, sometimes MUCH more

donnalegalp: They all had thier first shot

PHChristy: donna, I'm so sorry

VetWez: My dear departed Mikey had parvo at age 9 weeks....

donnalegalp: & days later they had parvo

PHChristy: it's very hard to overcome maternal antibody and even at best, it takes up to ten days for immunity to form after a vaccination

donnalegalp: MOne had IV flids every day they were sick.

PHChristy: it can take less, but anything up to ten days is normal

PHMorgan: Donna - were they still nursing when they were vaccinated?

VetWez: donna, parvo is WICKED that way...hard to tell when maternal antibody wanes so the vaccine will actually work

PHChristy: the younger they are ... the worse the prognosis

donnalegalp: It gets worse. I just had 3 cavaliers that got it, all lived

emmemay_nr: I remember hearing from Pat Hastings that Parvo shots were a accident waiting to happen.

PHMorgan: Yikes

PHChristy: and vaccinating them younger and younger, as some breeders do, won't help at all... maternal antibody is even HIGHER then

PHChristy: oh donna, I'm so sorry!

donnalegalp: No thye were off the mom for about a week.

VetWez: nope..younger vaccination is not better

PHMowgli: mine were 8 weeks no vaccs but I think they had the disease mildly compared to some from maternal antibodies

PHChristy: I absolutely hate parvo, it's a nasty, evil disease

emmemay_nr: Right, younger is NOT beter

PHMorgan: Wez - what is your recommendation for first vaccinations and how does that related to nursing?

donnalegalp: My cavaliers got it 6 dyas after vaccination of the 2nd shot.

VetWez: if I had my druthers (which I don't often have), I'd rather vaccinate first at 9 weeks for parvo....distemper needs to come a bit earlier, like at 8 weeks...and I DO NOT like to give them all at once

donnalegalp: It was very mild on them, only had fluids twice.

PHChristy: if I KNEW they wouldnt' be exposed, I'd like to give the first parvo at 12 weeks

VetWez: however, in practical terms, most people don't want to come see me weekly for months on end for puppy vaccs

PHMorgan: At what point would you assume the pups had stopped nursing?

PHMorgan: Sometimes my pups are still nursing at 8 and 9 weeks

VetWez: (I must wear on folks...they don't want to see me that often)

PHMowgli: I had one I finally took away at 16 weeks morgan I thought that was late enough LOL

PHChristy: I have to respectfully disagree about weekly.... I know that Dr. Shultz says that two weeks is the minimum, because the second vaccine can interfere with the immunity that is forming to the first vaccine... even if it's different viruses

PHMorgan: Ah, teh advantages of home vaccinations... :-)

PHChristy: and as a result, you can have BOTH vaccines fail

VAL911K9: my vet hates that I refuse to do more than 1 vaccine per visit

VetWez: Nursing will provide surface mucosal antibodies at that age, but little or none of the antibody is absorbed by the gut intact...

PHChristy: fail to immunize

Yorkiebrdr: So Wez you're saying that vaccinating at 8, 10, 14, 18 weeks with a combo is bad, huh?

VetWez: Christy...i didn't mean give a parvo weekly...I meant one week distemper, the next week parvo, the next week lepto (if needed).....etc

PHChristy: Wez, there are non-specific immune factors in mother's milk though, that at least in humans have been known to inhibit some viruses in nursing infants, even if the mother has no antibodies to the virus

PHChristy: I understand Wez, but he objects even to that

PHMorgan: Who is Dr. SChultz????

PHMorgan: :-D

VetWez: that would be Ron Schultz....

PHMowgli: Charlie Brown creator Morgan LOL

PHChristy: Dr. Ronald Schultz, chair of the Dept of Pathobiology at Univ of Wisc vet school

PHChristy: leading vaccine researcher

PHMorgan: OK good

VAL911K9: Wez, then if I had to pull my pups off mother early would I need to start my vaccines earlier - I never start till week 9 and have been worried about this

PHChristy: I think there is a potential window of infection no matter what we do

VetWez: VAL, your pups are better off with mom, sequestered away from the world

PHMorgan: But isn't that why we repeat the vaccines a few times? So that we don't miss the window?

VAL911K9: I wish - she had to go on meds and had to pull her due to that

PHChristy: but a combination of titer testing (you CAN monitor maternal antibody but it's expensive) and careful management is IMO your best bet

PHChristy: Morgan, yes

VetWez: Morgan, eventually the "window" is wide open

VAL911K9: she is dired up now and we kept her with the pusp and just bandaged her

PHMorgan: So giving vaccines every few weeks helps cover the window, right?

PHMorgan: Which is why we give so many?

VetWez: Yup...

PHChristy: foks, thank you so much for coming to Dog Breeding chat tonight! I will see you next week, and now I turn you over to PHMowgli for Showdog Chat!

VAL911K9: thanks again Christy and thanks Wez