| PHMorgan: Have you guys started your "whelping library"? |
| PHMorgan: There are a great many useful books out there to learn from, as well |
| PHMorgan: My three favorites are: "Whelping and Rearing a Litter" by Muriel Lee, "Canine Reproduction" by Phyllis Holst, and "Dog Breeding" by Wilcox |
| PHChristy: for practical whelping advice? |
| FrogDog: well, she's got a few things going for her...wide hips, a great-grandmother who partially whelped a puppy, and has had strong contractions at the end of false pg. |
| PHMorgan: The Muriel Lee book is a step by step whelping guide - nicet to have on hand during a deliver |
| PHChristy: as opposed to overall on dog breeding? |
| PHChristy: Wilcox is my fave of those three |
| brit7241: I've read all the Chihuahua books they have at my local library and right now I live in Omaha, NE but I'm moving up to Sioux Falls, SD and there's a chi breeder a couple hours away and she's offered to let me come up to her home and learn from her too!! |
| PHMorgan: The Holst book is a great all around reference, a bit technical but not incomprehensible |
| PHChristy: brit, that's great |
| PHChristy: does she show her dogs? |
| FrogDog: I've ordered the Holst book |
| PHMorgan: The wilcox book is a nice all around book, and very easy to read, also some of it is funny |
| PHChristy: yes, I agree |
| PHChristy: although when I have puppies due I completely lose my sense of humor |
| PHMorgan: Brit -that would be useful to have a mentor who will let you learn first-hand |
| PHMorgan: I'm usually relaxed about pups until something goes wrong. If all is well, I'm good |
| PHMorgan: Frog - sounds like you've got a potential free-whelper there |
| PHMorgan: YOu might be sure you get information on how to know when it's time to go to the vet - and when to wait. Whelpwise can be a very useful tool for knowing that..... |
| ZebaleseFinch: hi all |
| PHChristy: WB Zeb |
| PHMorgan: WB, Finch |
| FrogDog: I sure hope so! I've got to talk to the vet but I like the suggestion of whelping at the vet office. |
| ZebaleseFinch: ty |
| PHChristy: Brit, does the chi breeder you are talking to show her dogs? |
| ZebaleseFinch: you guys are good hosts! |
| PHMorgan: Frog - most vets will not whelp at the office - they are there for emergencies only |
| PHMorgan: We love all our little chatters, Finch! LOL |
| PHChristy: thanks, Zeb! |
| ZebaleseFinch: lol |
| PHMorgan: ::::Handing around the brownies:::: |
| PHChristy: Morgan, but with a bulldog you'd think they might |
| PHChristy: repro vets buy Mercedes because of bulldogs, LOL |
| FrogDog: then I guess we may be camping in the vet's parking lot! LOL! |
| PHMorgan: LOL |
| brit7241: No she doesn't show, but they're AKC and I plan on getting into showing |
| ZebaleseFinch: brb |
| PHMorgan: I have my vet's home number, which is good because the practice has several vets and I only will let HIM do work on my dogs |
| brit7241: I'm saving up my money to buy a show quality chi this summer, I have a few breeders in mind that are by me that have show quality pups occationally |
| PHMorgan: Welcome to Breeder Chat! Topic tonight is "Breeding for Free Whelpers" |
| PHMorgan: Hiya, KIWI |
| FrogDog: I'm hoping to meet some breeders in the area I'll be moving to. I think we'd have the best sucess if we had someone experienced in whelping those kimds of dogs to call on |
| PHMorgan: Brit - have you been researching their health issues and looking into showing? YOu can learn so much about the breed by attending shows and meeting various breeders (like you are doing now) |
| PHChristy: brit, if she breeds chihuahuas but doesn't show, I would not say she's a good mentor |
| brit7241: I know that if I want to breed chis I'll want larger females (5-6lbs) |
| PHChristy: Frog, thta's a great strategy |
| brit7241: I don't really know how to find shows in my area! any suggestions?/ |
| PHMorgan: YOu would. Definitely, Frog |
| PHMorgan: Enter a few shows in that area and try to meet some folks |
| PHMorgan: YOu should see if there is a Frenchie club in that area you can join - Breed Clubs are a GREAT way to meet folks |
| brit7241: Actually I didn't ask her if she shows, I'm almost sure she just breeds pet quality but I've seen a couple of her chihuahua's and they look like the standard, apple head, etc |
| PHChristy: brit, all the shows are listed on the web, by state, at www.infodog.com |
| PHMorgan: What is your area? |
| brit7241: thanks! |
| PHChristy: brit, it's not so much about "pet quality" or "show quality" |
| ZebaleseFinch: im back |
| FrogDog: There are no Frenchie folks within hours...at least none that show. |
| PHChristy: it's about making sure your mentor is a responsible breeder, with a breeding program, goals, and who uses some kind of outside, objective standard to evaluate their breeding program |
| PHMorgan: ROFLMBO - my daughter has just suggested that insteead of feeding all my many dogs indivdually, we should just put their water and vitamins in the food bin with the kibble and let them chow down |
| PHMorgan: It would take less time |
| PHChristy: LOL Morgan |
| FrogDog: I'll probably have to "settle" for a Pug breeder...or Peke, Boston, etc |
| PHChristy: for chihuahuas, since they dont' do any "work" like, say, a herding dog might do, the only way to judge that is the show ring |
| ZebaleseFinch: any of you guys from australia |
| brit7241: I can do obedience too right? |
| PHChristy: <---- California |
| PHMorgan: Absolutely, Brit - obeidence is appropriate for any breed |
| PHChristy: obedience is great! but for a chihuahua, it's not the best way to evaluate a breeding program |
| FrogDog: CA....soon to be WA |
| PHMorgan: Chis are so cute in obed |
| PHChristy: but as an activity it's wonderful |
| PHMorgan: Brit - don't want you to think we think you are a fool, but lemme ask you, do you know what the term "Responsible Breeder" means? If so, great, if not, let us explain that - it will help immensely in your search |
| FrogDog: How much impact does a stud have on whelping ability in the next generation? |
| PHMorgan: Frog - that really depends on how prepotent he is. |
| PHMorgan: I've used studs whO CONFORMATIONALLY stamp their get. Some who TEMPERAMENTALLY stamp their get, SOME who stamp their get with health issues (plus or minus) |
| PHMorgan: I've used others who seem not to affect my bitch at all (except we got pups) all the pups in Z's last litter looked liked her. Very few even had traits of the sire, let alone LOOKED or acted like him |
| PHChristy: LOL, hello there Ultraz! |
| PHMorgan: Welcome to Breeder Chat! Topic tonight is "Breeding for Free Whelpers" |
| UltrazGSD_nr: Hello :) |
| brit7241: yeah for the most part I have a general idea...I'm definitely not wanting to only produce puppies, I've wanted to show dogs since I was little, I love the idea of getting in the show ring with my own dog even if he/she doesn't win |
| UltrazGSD_nr: I followed ya lol |
| PHChristy: Hi Pauline! |
| paulinenz: hello |
| PHMorgan: Welcome to Breeder Chat! Topic tonight is "Breeding for Free Whelpers" |
| brit7241: but feel free to tell me ANYTHING I'm listening! I don't want to be a bad breeder at all, that's why I'm here!! |
| PHMorgan: Brit - Let's do a list - everyone can participate! These are the hallmarks of a responsible breeder, in no particular order: |
| brit7241: yay ok! |
| UltrazGSD_nr: Always take puppies/dogs back |
| paulinenz: lol i will just eavesdrop |
| PHMorgan: 1) Their dogs, all of them, old, young and still active are in good health and given proper nutrition, trainign and socialization |
| brit7241: of course |
| FrogDog: I guess it's more a matter of "wait and see". Very few even attempt to free whelp, so it's anyones guess what the impact would be |
| UltrazGSD_nr: don't breed a litter you wouldn't want a pup from yourself |
| PHMorgan: That is, their old dogs don't sit around in crates for motnhs with nothing to do |
| PHMorgan: Their pups they haven't placed from tha tlast litter aren't stuck out in a kennel run without human contact |
| PHChristy: they have a breeding program with goals |
| brit7241: I don't want any kennels, I want them all inside |
| PHChristy: they test their breeding program in the "real world," as in dog shows, work, field trials, herding trials, etc |
| PHChristy: they dont' just produce puppies to satisfy the pet market or to make money |
| PHMorgan: 2) They can provide a pedigree for any puppy they have available, AND explain about most, if not all, the dogs listed on that pedigree. At the very least, they should know something abouty each one |
| PHMorgan: 3) they will take the puppy back AT ANY TIME FOR ANY REASON |
| PHChristy: and of course, the number one way you can tell if a breeder is a responsible breeder: they always, always lose money hand over fist |
| PHMorgan: (this might or might not be a money-back guarantee, but should at least be a moneyback on health guarantee |
| PHMorgan: They should be able to tell you where EACH AND EVERY puppy they ever bred is RIGHT NOW |
| PHMorgan: Because they should be follwing up and checking on them |
| PHChristy: oh, and when they have puppies, they should suffer severe sleep deprivation |
| PHMorgan: I've produced about 30 pups so far in my breeding career, and I know where all but 2 are. Two have moved without a forwarding address, but my spies are looking for them... LOL |
| brit7241: lol |
| PHChristy: they use REAL registries with standards, not just "fake" registries like Continental Kennel Club |
| brit7241: I'm writing all this down |
| PHMorgan: Most responsible breeders are very willing to share information and help you - but you also might want to be willing to pitch in and help in exchange. |
| PHChristy: Brit, DogHobbyist.com has a "Code of Ethics for Dog Breeders," it's here: http://www.doghobbyist.com/breederregistry/EthicsDog.php |
| PHMorgan: For example, go to shows with them and help hold/transport dogs in exchange for a look-see with explanations |
| PHChristy: you might want to bookmark that |
| brit7241: ok thanks |
| PHMorgan: Welcome to Breeder Chat! Topic tonight is "Breeding for Free Whelpers" |
| PHChristy: Hey there Dogaroo! |
| PHMorgan: Hiya, Dog |
| PHChristy: although we've strayed onto the topic of Responsible Breeders |
| Dogaroo: hi :-) |
| PHMorgan: One thing I can tell you Frog, is that My foundation bitch was from a line that has had some whelping problems. |
| PHMorgan: I bred into a line that does not, and have had better luck with her pups |
| FrogDog: For breeds that typically free-whelp, do you re-breed a bitch if she requires a section? Assuming inertia, not just a size issue. |
| PHMorgan: I have done so. |
| PHChristy: Frog, no |
| PHMorgan: So long as the bitch is healthy and fit |
| PHChristy: if the bitch has inertia not a chance in heck would I breed her again |
| PHMorgan: It depends on the problem |
| PHChristy: do you mean primary inertia? |
| PHMorgan: I've had a few singleton litters due to using aged stud dogs |
| FrogDog: yes |
| brit7241: what's inertia (see I'm still learning lol) |
| PHChristy: I mean, I know one litter of deerhounds where the bitch delivered the first 16 puppies naturally and needed to have a section for the next 8 |
| PHChristy: I mean |
| FrogDog: no contractions...or very weak |
| PHChristy: yes, I'd breed her again, LOL |
| PHMorgan: Those frequently require a section due to the size of the whelp AND the lack of hormone stimulus for whelping (these hormones come from the placentas - less placentas, less hormones) |
| PHChristy: primary uterine inertia means they never start labor |
| PHChristy: if the reason was a very small litter in a giant breed bitch, then I'd breed her again |
| PHMorgan: But in those cases, for me, the bitches DID have some kind of labor |
| PHChristy: if it was a normal size litter then no |
| PHMorgan: Just not really productive |
| PHMorgan: Hiya, Wez |
| PHChristy: Hei there Wezl! |
| PHMorgan: Welcome to Breeder Chat! Topic tonight is "Breeding for Free Whelpers" |
| FrogDog: gotcha |
| PHMorgan: (For those who don't know, Wez is our Ask the Vet Vet) |
| PHChristy: if the uterine inertia sets in after delivering several pups, then I'd judge it differently |
| PHChristy: Pom! Welcome! |
| PHMorgan: She's got letters behind her name and everythign! |
| PHChristy: LOL |
| PHMorgan: Welcome to Breeder Chat! Topic tonight is "Breeding for Free Whelpers" |
| VetWez: Holy Moly...I FINALLY got in!!! |
| Dogaroo: Welcome, Wez :-) |
| PHChristy: LOL Wezl |
| PHMorgan: :::Fluffs up Wez's pillows:::: |
| PHChristy: we were just discussing uterine inertia of various kinds |
| VetWez: Christy, two weeks ago I about had a seizure...I could NOT log on.. |
| PHChristy: and if we'd breed a bitch again if she had to have a section |
| PHChristy: Wezl, what was the problem, do you know? |
| VetWez: Poor Morgan had to relay questions and answers via IM |
| PHMorgan: Yeah, we had Vet Chat via translation |
| Dogaroo: Oh no! |
| PHChristy: oh no what a mess! |
| PHMorgan: It was fun |
| PHMorgan: LOL |
| VetWez: I have no idea...I couldn't access ANYTHING outside aol |
| PHChristy: LOL Morgan, you are a masochist |
| FrogDog: no problem...just hypothetica |
| FrogDog: l |
| PHChristy: of course, I think all dog breeders are masochists |
| VetWez: ditto, Christy! [img id=em-4] |
| PHMorgan: Nah - I type fast so it was oK |
| travlinpom_nr: hey all |
| VetWez: hiya trav |
| PHMorgan: HOwarya, Pom? |
| Dogaroo: sheesh... I don't know how you guys do it. I'm getting into breeding platies (livebearer tropical fish) & I'm freakin' out about genetics! lol |
| PHMorgan: Who's got the brownies? Wez & Pom need 'em |
| PHChristy: I actually know people who criticized that bitch who had a litter of 22 and had to deliver the last 8 by c section... saying "Oh, but she had to have a section" |
| VetWez: <~~~~surrounded by sighthounds |
| PHMorgan: Dogaroo, did you get any? |
| Dogaroo: Platies are easy. Get fish, add water. |
| PHMorgan: 22 pups |
| PHMorgan: taht is scary |
| PHChristy: I just thought to myself, sheesh, she had SIXTEEN FREAKING PUPPIES! give her a break, she was exhausted! |
| Dogaroo: I'm still picking out the fish I want. Might have to order them. |
| PHMorgan: I'm impressed she delivered THAT many |
| PHChristy: Wez, surrounded by sighthounds here too! |
| VetWez: that's TWO big litters!! |
| PHChristy: Morgan, you bet! |
| PHChristy: Wezl, or three, LOL |
| VetWez: Christy, i'm dogsitting a grey, in addition to the Evil whippet |
| PHChristy: LOL Wez |
| Dogaroo: Yeowza! Did they all survive? |
| travlinpom_nr: Heck, that'sTEN litters!!! |
| FrogDog: geez! Why don't THEY try to deliver that many babies and see if they don't get exhausted! Incredible! |
| VetWez: LOL Trav!!! |
| PHChristy: I helped her breeder with the litter, we separated them into two "stages" and rotated them |
| Dogaroo: ooh.... There was a meet & greet downtown last week... I was SOOOO tempted! |
| PHChristy: LOL Frog, you bet! |
| Dogaroo: Three's my limit, though. |
| PHChristy: they did not all live, but most did |
| PHChristy: I believe it ended up being 20 or so |
| PHChristy: huge litter |
| PHMorgan: Christy - did you get a foster mom? |
| PHChristy: they did have a lot of health problems |
| PHChristy: Morgan, no, we just rotated them onto mom |
| Dogaroo: Wow.... Did they hand nurse, or find a wet nurse bitch? |
| PHMorgan: Were they small? |
| PHMorgan: OMG that's too many to rotate..> What a nightmare |
| PHChristy: the breeder was a bet tech and she supplemented with tube feeding |
| PHChristy: vet tech |
| PHMorgan: I'd have been calling shelters for btiches turned in! LOL |
| PHMorgan: STILL! |
| Dogaroo: ah... |
| PHMorgan: WOW |
| PHMorgan: There is a useful reason for bitches to cycle in groups |
| PHMorgan: I am nearly guaranteed to have a wet nurse anytime I breed a litter |
| PHChristy: I'm trying to remember, it was a long time ago |
| Dogaroo: We've put abandoned pups on healthy stray bitches at the shelter on occasion.... |
| PHChristy: I don't think we tried that, but it's possible we did |
| PHChristy: the litter produced a specialty winner |
| PHMorgan: Well, it's one thing when everyone is homeless and an unknown... I"m not sure how scary it might be toput pups with an unknown bitch |
| FrogDog: that brings up another question....how many of you do 2 breedings at a time (in the event that one bitch doesn't get milk...or worse)?? |
| PHChristy: Frog, I'd never do that |
| Dogaroo: That would be scary. I'd want to know the bitch. |
| PHMorgan: Well, outa 22, you would HOPE one woudl be SUPER GOOD LOL |
| VetWez: Well, y'all, this was just an experiment to see if I could access again...apparently I can. So, I'm gonna wander aimlessly... |
| VetWez: see some of you tomorrow night |
| Dogaroo: tc Wez |
| PHChristy: Night Wezl! |
| PHChristy: one litter nearly kills me, I can't imagine two |
| PHMorgan: I dont' but my litters are usually large. I've DONE it, but only because I suspected Bitch #1 wasn't preggy |
| PHMorgan: Naturally both were and I had 13 pups here |
| travlinpom_nr: Frog, i sometimes breed two girls at once if i think there might be a problem, or first time mom |
| Dogaroo: 22.... wow! Still shaking my head! |
| PHMorgan: WIth Poms it's cool since they have small litters |
| Dogaroo: Maybe I'll stick to fish after all. |
| travlinpom_nr: But then, i have small litters |
| FrogDog: true...I'm taling about small litter breeds |
| PHMorgan: I was just lukcy the one bitch had only 3 - cause the other one had 10.... Imagine if Bich #1 had had a normal pointer litter... I'd have had 18! |
| PHMorgan: And they whelped ONE DAY APART |
| Dogaroo: Yeow! |
| PHChristy: sheesh! |
| travlinpom_nr: I dont have a ton of dogs, so it doesnt always work out, but if i had some small problem with the bitch, i will try to breed another girl at the same time |
| Dogaroo: I'd be trying to take maternity leave from work.... |
| PHMorgan: A friend bred 2bitches and had both litters deliver ON CHRISTMAS EVE |
| PHChristy: Pom, I'd not hesitate to do that if I had toy dogs |
| PHChristy: LOL Morgan |
| PHMorgan: I was not working at the time, or I'd NEVER had done it at ALL |
| PHMorgan: I knew I owuld be able to be home |
| PHMorgan: It worked out well, because the bitch with the large litter didn't have enough milk the first week or so, so we gave 3 to the one with the small litter |
| travlinpom_nr: I was very lucky that i had bred Sophie . .. we lost Millie duiring the section . . . Sophie took Millie's puppy without hesitation |
| brit7241: I'm out, thanks all!! |
| PHMorgan: Then later, teh bitch with the small litter got injured (nipple nearly torn off) and refused to nurse, so then the bitch witht he large litter got ALL 13 |
| PHMorgan: It was definitely a team effort. I have photos of them nursing pups at each end of my large box once I'd combined all the pups |
| PHChristy: LOL |
| PHMorgan: I was amazed taht they would work together |
| PHChristy: breeding is easiest when everything goes right, when the bitch pops the puppies out, and gets in milk, and they all nurse.... |
| PHMorgan: I only combined the pups because the small litter was so much quieter and jumpier than the large litter - I thought the ruffians would do them good |
| PHChristy: so that's why I try to select my breeding stock for easy reproduction |
| PHMorgan: Definitely a plus |
| PHChristy: because I hate to suffer |
| PHChristy: LOL |
| PHMorgan: There is NOTHINGmore important than agoodmother |
| PHMorgan: The better the mom, the less work for you |
| PHChristy: absolutely |
| FrogDog: A friend of mine had a bitch die...luckily her other bitch had been bred (an oops, ironically) who whelped a few days after the first bitch. She had left the room to check on the delivery of the 2nd litter when her girl passed away. Poor girl clung to life until her friend was able to adopt her litter, |
| PHChristy: wow |
| PHChristy: a friend of mine just had her bitch die also |
| PHChristy: last I heard she had lost 4 of the 5 puppies |
| PHMorgan: So scary |
| PHChristy: and put the last pup with a foster mom |
| PHMorgan: YOu really take your dog's life in your hands every time you breed |
| PHChristy: yes, the dark side that BYBs dont' want to know about |
| Dogaroo: yes |
| PHMorgan: It's one thing to lose puppies (hard but at least theyu haven't gotten quite into your heart yet) but to los
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