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Transcript: Dog Breeding Chat Tuesday, July 12, 2005: Growing Out Puppies PHChristy: Welcome to Dog Breeding Chat! Our topic tonight is Growing Out Puppies - Evaluating Adolescents PHChristy: but first, how is everyone doing tonight? ode2adream: great:) berta: some you have to let grow a looooong time Doglover_nr: good, you? berta: too too HOT in N/w PA PHChristy: LOL berta EClatSPs: Fine, how are you? PHChristy: I'm doing well berta: we need rain
EClatSPs:
Doglover_nr: same here
PHChristy: it's bloody hot here, still 90 outside
EClatSPs: We're supposed to be gettng rain now, but no luck.
PHChristy: I really hate summer
EClatSPs: Where are you Christy?
Doglover_nr: yea, we JUSt go rain 4 the first time in 1 month
Doglover_nr: why do u hate it?
berta: every evening this week they've said possible thundershowers and still no rain that day hurricane backed off too soon for us
PHChristy: it doesn't rain here normally from May to October, so if it did rain that would be bizarre,LOL ... I'm in coastal Northern California
EClatSPs: OK.
berta: that dang hurrican
EClatSPs: I'm in Mid-Missouri.
Doglover_nr: yea, i think it was... hurricane Emily
PHChristy: so, this topic is very applicable to my breed, as deerhounds can go through a long stage of adolescent uglies, especially the males
berta: my sister is in Mill Valley she was saying last nite that the people out there don't understand why we just don't water our grass & stuff LOL
PHChristy: the puppy who takes your breath away at 6 months can make you hide your head in shame at 12 months, LOL
EClatSPs: The boy I bred to went through that.
PHChristy: here, if we have lawns we water them
PHChristy: or we dn't have lawns
PHChristy: Hi there SmDog!!!! Welcome to Dog Breeding Chat! Our topic tonight is Growing Out Puppies - Evaluating Adolescents
berta: Oh lordie my one pup at 6 months was so dang ugly until she was almost 3 I didn't even take her out anywhere. Lovely as a young pup'
PHSmDog: Hey There... a subject right up MY alley
Doglover_nr: I dont breed dogs... so I think that i am going 2 be left out of this conversation..sigh..
PHChristy: Folks, this is PHSmDog who is back from a LONG leave of absence!! Please welcome her back, she's an experienced Yorkie breeder
PHSmDog: berta, been there done THAT... I have 2 12 month olds right now that are nice...but ...
PHChristy: six months is a very good age usually for a deerhound, they look like cute little whippets
EClatSPs: They said that they kept him only because they did the breeding specifically to get a black boy, but didn't really think he was the quality they were looking for. Their handler finished him around two years of age and they brought him home and shaved him down, still not liking him all that much. Suddenly about a year or so later they looked down and asked themselves where in the world that dog came from.
berta: welcome Sm I guess you did leave a long time ago
Doglover_nr: WB
Clicker59: Ho Sm This Is Loo
PHChristy: ROFL EClat, well that's much nicer than the reverse
PHSmDog: Berta... not THAT long ago...LOL
PHChristy: Hi there Valkyrie! Welcome to Dog Breeding Chat! Our topic tonight is Growing Out Puppies - Evaluating Adolescents
PHSmDog: Hey VALK long time no see
Clicker59: Hi Val
Doglover_nr: I dont know anything about this topic, i thing I have to go
Valkyrie: Heya
Doglover_nr: ...sigh...
PHChristy: For me and my breed, if I like them at 6 months and I know the lines, I will assume I'll like them after the gawky uglies are past
Doglover_nr: bye!! might come back later
PHChristy: when I went out to some unfamiliar lines, I wasn't as sure, and that caused me some worries
EClatSPs: Absolutely. I'd much rather have a late maturng dog. This boy will be 10 next month and looks and acts very young still.
PHChristy: Night Doglover!
Clicker59: Sm Toby is no Longer Have Toby
berta: I look at pups while they're still wet then at around 10 weeks. By then I pretty much know what's there though
PHChristy: I'd rather have a late maturing dog than one who peaks at a year and then falls apart
mingtimecsp_nr: Hi
PHSmDog: Christy...so far I'm still sticking with the line of my mentor. Its working out GREAT for me
PHChristy: HI mingtimescp! Welcome to Dog Breeding Chat! Our topic tonight is Growing Out Puppies - Evaluating Adolescents
PHSmDog: Hey MINGTIMECSP
PHChristy: SmDog, that's wonderful to hear! Tell me, how do the toys do with "adolescent uglies"? I wouldn't expect them to have it
PHChristy: I think of it as a big dog thing
berta: I like slow maturers myself. Tally was 5 by the time he looked great.
mingtimecsp_nr: I keep my guys on for a while till bites comein in my breed you kind of have to watch out for tight lip etc.
PHChristy: although I guess the coated breeds do go through it, whatever their size
berta: Sir is two and still working on it....... shedding didn't help
PHChristy: mingtime, what is your breed?
EClatSPs: What breed, Ming?
PHSmDog: Oh man, at 6 months, I do an eval. At 9 months I do another, and at 12 months, I'm pretty sure what I have. However, toys mature faster than large breeds
mingtimecsp_nr: I have Shar-pei
PHChristy: berta, I don't mind them, but then again, I'd rather they came together younger than that
PHChristy: I don't want to wait til they are 5 to show and breed them
ode2adream: Crested:)
curliousCresteds: hey everyone!
PHChristy: Hi, curlious! Welcome to Dog Breeding Chat! Our topic tonight is Growing Out Puppies - Evaluating Adolescents
PHSmDog: One of my mentor's BEST dogs (2nd at the Garden 84) was an UGLY puppy
EClatSPs: I've been told to not judge *anything* at six months on puppies from the sire of my babies.
Clicker59: How Can I tell when the dog is going through the Adolescents?
PHChristy: Clicker, they look kind of uncoordinated and awkward
PHSmDog: EClat, that depends on how long you've been breeding a line. I can tell at 6 months what's a "keeper" and what's a Pet
mingtimecsp_nr: I breed forthe horsecoat variety and to this day I ahve not produced a horsecoat with a bad bite but when it comes to my brushcoats I always worry. people who breed more Brushcoats have better luck then me
PHChristy: for deerhounds, they grow in a see-saw... rear up, front up, rear up, front up... you have no idea day to day what angle the topline will be at LOL
EClatSPs: No, it's in the particular line.
berta: Well in his defense he got his first major from the puppy class at 10 months and the second at 18 months and VERY gauky
ode2adream: lol
PHChristy: LOL berta
PHChristy: that's a nice defense
Clicker59: I never noticed that unless it has something to do with wanting attention LOL
PHChristy: LOL Clicker
EClatSPs: They fall apart around 9-10 weeks and then don't start coming back together until around 9 months to a year.
PHSmDog: EClat... well of course your breeder knows the line better than anyone...
PHSmDog: Eclat what breed?
mingtimecsp_nr: I found over the years that in SP different coat types grow different.
curliousCresteds: whats the best age to evaluate pups then?
PHChristy: I bought two puppies a few years ago from a line said to be "slow maturing" but I felt good about them.... they seemed to mature at the rate I was used to.
EClatSPs: Standard Poodles.
PHChristy: curlious, it depends on the breed and even lines within the breed IMO
Clicker59: Douchie loves to block my view when My TV shoes are on LOL
berta: the majority of Sams go "off" at around 6 months
ode2adream: Yep.
PHChristy: berta, deerhounds too... right after
Clicker59: Shows I mean see why I am asking that?
PHChristy: mostly males
PHSmDog: Eclat ah so we're talking apples and oranges in growth rates... [img id=em-6]
PHChristy: and bigger bitches
PHChristy: I've had some small bitches who just always looked good
EClatSPs: Yep.... :)
PHChristy: that I finished young, a couple at 9 months even
PHSmDog: Christy you're right. As much alike as most yorkies are, each line is different.
PHChristy: SmDog, yes, and of course, knowing how lines mature is part of what we need to keep in mind when evaluating our puppies
mingtimecsp_nr: For my breed I think the best time to evaluate is 4-5 months
EClatSPs: I had the stud dog's owners and other very experience breeders who are familier with the line eval my puppies for me.
PHChristy: over time, you start to get an eye for what kind of "puppy uglies" turn into good stuff in a mature dog
berta: yes Christy my more compact bitches have never had an ugly day Feather was larger and leggier but when she finally grew together she could MOVE like the wind
PHChristy: berta, yes, exactly!
Clicker59: & how about the age on Bassets?
PHSmDog: Christy, yep. But like I said, I'm so heavy into my mentor's lines with no outcrossing to date that I can make better guesses than some
PHChristy: we don't usually say "compact" in deerhounds because that implies "square," but my small, curvy, tight little bitches.... those are the ones who always look great
PHChristy: EClat, that's absolutely the way to do it!
berta: well Sams ARE supposed tobe just off square so it works for them
PHChristy: berta, yes
EClatSPs: But even considering that these puppies 'typically' fall apart at their age, my girl still took a puppy g-2 at her first match at barely three monts of age.
PHChristy: Hi there DamlisFamily! Welcome to Dog Breeding Chat! Our topic tonight is Growing Out Puppies - Evaluating Adolescents
PHChristy: that's great, EClat!
berta: thristy brb
PHChristy: a knowledgeable judge, esp a breeder judge, can understand what they're seeing even in an adolescent
Clicker59: How can I find out at what age the Bassts act like a Teen?
EClatSPs: I'm pretty proud of this crew. I couldn't have asked for better from my first litter.
PHChristy: Clicker, hopefully a basset breeder will come in who will know!
PHChristy: EClat, I'm so happy for you!
PHSmDog: How do they produce Christy?
EClatSPs: Now if I could just find the 'right' homes for the last few...
PHChristy: what age do Sweeps and Futurity begin and go to in your breeds?
EClatSPs: I'm not sure...
mingtimecsp_nr: I hate dealing with the puppy people who aren't sure what they want
PHChristy: EClat, we're supposed to find them homes???
Clicker59: To Bad Toto Or Nero is not around since they both know about Bessets Christie
ode2adream: lol
EClatSPs: ROFLMAO, Christy!
PHChristy: Clicker, we have a couple of basset breeders who come to this chat sometimes, maybe one of them will be here later on
mingtimecsp_nr: had someone pester me for weeks to tell me they were going to pass because they were too old URHG!
PHChristy: ROFL mingtime
PHChristy: well, at least you were spared having to come up with a reason to tell them NO WAY!
Clicker59: If they do let me know OK Christie?
EClatSPs: Yeah, I had to turn one down recently because I had reason to believe they were going to use him for producing 'doodles'! Grrrr....
EClatSPs: She got really mad at me for turning her down, too.
PHChristy: I will, Clicker!
berta: My last pup from my last litter was too old for several different people because I don't let them go at 8 weeks
Clicker59: Christie Thanks
PHChristy: ECLat, yeah, I've had some nasty words from people I've turned down
EClatSPs: How old do you let them go, Berta?
PHChristy: berta, I have had to deal with that... it really puts me on a rampage against all the morons out there insisting people have to get their puppies at 8 weeks or they wont' "bond" or some such crap
PHChristy: 12 weeks is my bare minimum age
curliousCresteds: my boys pups are 8wks today, waiting on new pics of them
berta: 12 weeks
PHChristy: curlious :D
PHChristy: puppy breath
EClatSPs: There's actually a town not far from here where their laws *require* all puppies from a litter to be gone before eight weeks....
PHChristy: WHAT?
PHChristy: how on earth did they do that, and why?
EClatSPs: Seriously!
berta: I have let one of two go at 10 to 11 weeks to people I know really well
curliousCresteds: its 12wks here
Valkyrie: Rescues wouldn't work if there was much truth to the bonding issue.
curliousCresteds: before they are considered a "dog"
Clicker59: Most Breesters Wait untol they are 3 months old
berta: ignorant people
curliousCresteds: but they dont do much
Clicker59: SmDog WB
PHChristy: I'm sure what the law says, that as long as they are younger than that, they don't count to the limit laws.
PHChristy: Hi again SmDog!
Clicker59: BRB my self
EClatSPs: Mine are three and a half months now and I'm just beginning to really start *trying* to sell them.
PHChristy: not that they HAVE TO sell them by 8 weeks
PHSmDog: Dang, DH got on the cordless phone and knocked me off my wireless connection
PHChristy: LOL SmDog
PHChristy: bad DH
PHSmDog: Christy...he doesn't believe it... LOL
PHChristy: LOL
berta: smack him with a rolled up newspaper
EClatSPs: My friend read me the law and it reallydid say that they had to be gone before eight weeks.
Clicker59: That Figires SmDog LOL
PHChristy: EClat, but what if you were keeping one?
PHChristy: I mean, you can't breed a litter and keep a dog in that town?
curliousCresteds: i guess it would count towards your total limit?
EClatSPs: Not if it puts you over the two dog limit.
PHChristy: laws that are so badly written as to make no sense are usually not enforceable, someone should protest it
berta: am I frozen?
curliousCresteds: i can see you berta
EClatSPs: If I lived there, I would.
Valkyrie: What is the city?
PHChristy: EClat, right... that was what I was saying, that after 8 weeks they count against the limiti law
berta: okee dokey
PHChristy: but not that you HAVE TO sell the puppies by 8 weeks
EClatSPs: They have these laws, but have ONE PART TIME ac officer.
PHChristy: you're here berta
EClatSPs: Troy, MO.
Valkyrie: Thanks.
PHChristy: Missouri... puppy mill capital then they make a law like that. Idiots.
berta: well one of the puppymill states figures LOL
PHChristy: LOL berta GMTA
PHSmDog: Christy, just like the Law In KING CO, WA... they have NEVER enforced it
curliousCresteds: here its 12wks before they count towards your limit, they come around to peoples houses about once every 3 years. Allowed to have 2 dogs, I had 3 here when they came and just said one didnt live here, they said ok have a good day lol
mingtimecsp_nr: Here it is one year
PHChristy: LOL curlious
PHSmDog: Curious I've done that before and I have 18 yorkies in the house
berta: At what point would you decide you just aren't seeing what you're looking for in a potential keeper and find it a home?
PHChristy: animal control can't come to my house, I have garlic strung up in the driveway
Clicker59: C'ool Couioud
EClatSPs:
PHChristy: berta, well, I don't seem to be good at finding them homes after they've been here a while
PHSmDog: There's no limit here, but they don't provide any kind of animal control services out here in the county, so I'm not paying for a kennel license anymore
EClatSPs: I'm also in the county and there's no limit.
PHChristy: but in THEORY, if a dog was promising, VERY promising, at 6 months, and it was the lines I know, I would wait until 2 years.
PHChristy: I am within the limit law here
PHSmDog: berta in my breed, it would be breaking color too soon, bad ear set, bad bite, wrong eye shape
PHChristy: I've lived places where I exceeded it, very stressful IMO
mingtimecsp_nr: I have seen in my breed a lot of puppies of a particulr variety finish before they are 8 months old by the time they are 2 you think "oh dear lord what is that'
berta: I kept one bitch pup that I just didn't like the way she moved. Nothing wrong just didn't do it for me. I had no intention of placing her but a friend stopped to visit and his step brother & wife fell for her and she for them....... she was 1 year
PHSmDog: berta there are a lot of things that I believe could make a dog a pet, but then I've place more potential show dogs as pets than I can shake a stick at over 20 years
PHChristy: the things that I am really worried about are: bad toplines, straight fronts, curly tails (just because it's been cursing me for generations, not because I really think it's THAT important), health problems
PHChristy: mingtime, yes, I think that happens more in smaller breeds than mine.
PHSmDog: Ming happens all the time in yorkies...
curliousCresteds: happens with cresteds too
Valkyrie: curly tails are bad?
PHChristy: Val, in deerhounds
berta: I have no problem placing what could be a show dog in a pet home. I was referring to one you intended to keep
mingtimecsp_nr: It is annoying when you lose to a dog on "cuteness" not "correctness"
curliousCresteds: imhoping it doesnt happen with my boy, hes 20 months now, finished CKC at months, AKC at 17 months
Valkyrie: That's what I meant. But they're so cute. LOL
PHSmDog: In yorkies if you see a puppy winning (under 18 months) you can BET it has a wooly/cottony coat... bad, news
PHChristy: Tail
Should be tolerably long, tapering and reaching to within 11/2 inches of the ground and about 11/2 inches below the hocks. Dropped perfectly down or curved when the Deerhound is still, when in motion or excited, curved, but in no instance lifted out of line of the back. It should be well covered with hair, on the inside, thick and wiry, underside longer and towards the end a slight fringe is not objectionable. A curl or ring tail is undesirable.
PHChristy: I have no problems with tail set, but ring tails? Oy.
Valkyrie: How did it get...uhm...overcurled?
Clicker59: We have a situation where we are suppose to the 4 Dog Law & I think A neighbor who maybe over the Limit of 4 but because her back yard has the Wooden fense I understand she had planned to breed them & sell the Puppies but I think she may have only sold 1 puppy but be came attached to the rest of them
PHChristy: a few of my so-called FRIENDS once made up a t-shirt that said "Caber Feidh: Home of the Ring Tailed Scottish Deerhound!"
berta: met a Sammie she REALLY liked
Valkyrie: Or is it just one of those things that's difficult to obtain even though it's a standard?
PHChristy: LOL berta
Valkyrie: LOL Oh dear
PHSmDog: berta, I look for the opposite of all of the above. The ear set has to be just right, eyes have to be just right, the dog MUST have halos... and there aren't many yorkie breeders who even know what halos are.
PHChristy: ring tails are not a huge curse in deerhounds, I just seem to be LUCKY
PHChristy: what are halos, SmDog?
berta: what are halos?
Clicker59: So I sm not sure how many she has now
Clicker59: Yws what are Halos?
PHSmDog: Christy its shading around the eyes. The TAN is suppose to shade to a lighter color as the coat grows in. The Halos are lighter areas around the eyes. Gives a Larger appearance to the almond shaped eye
PHSmDog: Its a Definate PLUS in yorkies
Valkyrie: Interesting
Clicker59: We gptcha
Clicker59: My sister Has a Spoiled Yorkie
PHSmDog: They are SUPPOSE to have it. Not even most of our old time breeders have them or even know what they are
berta: Seannachie , the girl I placed at one year because I didn't like the way she moved and I didn't like her attitude (she'd run down my old dog for fun) ended up borderline dysplasic
mingtimecsp_nr: I am off to bed Thanks all for the chat
Valkyrie: halos, brushcoats, ringtails, hoboy...
Clicker59: Smdog LOL
PHSmDog: Valk LOL
PHChristy: berta, that's too bad :(
PHSmDog: Problem with yorkies is that pretty much everything we breed for is a recessive gene... that takes a lot of work to keep in a line and most breeders don't have the knowledge or the smarts to do it
berta: never lame just not as fluid as my others
Clicker59: Dochie is laying next to me asleep
berta: With Sams it's a tight lip line that we're losing which in turn ruins the Sammie smile
PHSmDog: berta...oh and how I LOVE that Sammy Smile....[img id=em-6]
Clicker59: OH NO Berta
Clicker59: [img id=em-2]
PHChristy: without a smile... wouldn't be a sammy!
PHSmDog: berta is that a genetic thing?
PHChristy: You know, I think this raises a point we don't talk about enough
PHChristy: TYPE!
rckr911_nr: hey everyone
rckr911_nr: i have a quick questoiojm
berta: but just look through the Dog News etc and look at the loose flews...........NEVER should be there
rckr911_nr: can anyonen help?
Clicker59: She dosen't have any business having a dog Berta if she ran your dog downfor a hobby
PHSmDog: Christy...now there's a word a lot of breeders I know have NO CLUE about the meaning of
PHChristy: hi rckr!
curliousCresteds: whats the question?
PHChristy: Welcome to Dog Breeding Chat!
Valkyrie: Those flap in the wind when they run really fast right?
Valkyrie: ;-)
Clicker59: Yes what's the ?
EClatSPs: Sorry! I'm back.
PHChristy: Welcome to Dog Breeding Chat! Our topic tonight is "Growing Out Puppies"
PHChristy: Hi Sara!
Clicker59: Hi Sara
berta: clicker I don't understand your post?
PHChristy: This is the thing about something that SEEMS to be nitpicky or weird...
Sarasmushu: Hi Christy, Clicker and everyone else
rckr911_nr: i want to go buy a poodle but it says the tail is docked is this a good thing??
PHChristy: some people outside of the breeding world don't get it, or even people from other breeds wonder... why do we focus on such seemingly inconsequential detals as lips or tails?
PHSmDog: Rckr unless you like your poodles with long tails...
PHChristy: but all those details are what, combined, make up TYPE
curliousCresteds: poodles tails are docked yes
PHChristy: and without TYPE....
PHSmDog: Rckr I dock all the yorkie tails here
rckr911_nr: does docked mean completley gone or will its have like a stub?
PHChristy: you don't have your breed anymore
EClatSPs: Depends on the breed, but poodles are typically docked longer.
Valkyrie: So what your saying is the devil is in the details..
Sarasmushu: Rckr it Depends
PHChristy: rckr, in poodles they actually take only a little off, they are left with a fair amount of tail
PHSmDog: Christy because that is what makes the breed the breed... that and the temperament
Valkyrie: or in this case...the breed is in the details?
PHChristy: SmDog, and ability, if a performance breed
PHChristy: Valkyrie, yes....
PHSmDog: Christy absolutely...
PHChristy: I know that to some people it's just a silly "beauty pageant" mentality, but it isn't
Clicker59: Didn't you say that you had to regect somebody & if that earlier in the chat & if that was the the same Person that ran your older dog as a Hoby?
rckr911_nr: ok thank you
PHChristy: it's all the things that people have agreed are what makes this breed, this breed, and not some other
ode2adream: I hate that.
Clicker59: Berta?
rckr911_nr: uve all been a big help thank you
PHChristy: rickr, good luck to you!
Clicker59: Hobby I mean
rckr911_nr: [img id=em-5]
PHSmDog: Christy case in point... tiny yorkies... they can't move, they aren't good examples of the breed, but they're the current fad... so they win in the ring
Clicker59: Bertha?
curliousCresteds: fads suck
Clicker59: I am Lost Beta
berta: The reason for the loss of tight liplines is the fad of having bigger heads. Many have gotten coarse Akitaish
Valkyrie: pocket beagles...not showable, not a represenative of the breed...a fad.
ode2adream: well said Crested:P
PHChristy: I mean, what's the difference between a deerhound and a wolfhound, or a borzoi, or a greyhound, for that matter... if not all those "inconsequential" details like coat and head shape and color and build, that are so easy to be seen as unimportant details to outsiders?
PHSmDog: Curlious I agree
Clicker59: [img id=em-2]
PHSmDog: Valk absolutely
PHChristy: SmDog, does your standard not have a size dq or guideline?
berta: how about mini Aussies .... I saw one today and thought it was a very coarse sheltie until I saw it
berta: had no tail
Clicker59: This is why I don't breed
PHSmDog: Christy no disqualifications of any kind in our breed... the standard simply reads "Not to exceed seven pounds?
PHChristy: our standard is somewhat ambigous on size... well, not really, but it can be seen that way by those who want to see it that way
PHChristy: berta, well .... that's a made up breed
curliousCresteds: I saw a 5month old mini aussie the other day, thought it was like an 8week old pup
PHChristy: well-written standards can't help in the case of the "Mini aussie" but it COULD help with the Yorkies
PHChristy: and with my breed, had they been even more ruthlessly clear
Valkyrie: OH! Okay..this isn't dogs, but this is a trend that is occuring. Icelandic sheep is the breed I'll be raising. They are one of the ONLY breeds that can lamb without intervention. HOWEVER, nobody is ever happy with a breed just as it is, they want to make changes. Now those changes are resulting in heads that are too big and assisted deliveries. Teh breed will be lost if they forget those details.
PHSmDog: The problem with these "Fad" breeds is that as long as there are people out there that want them, there will be "breeders" and I use that term LOOSLEY, who will breed them
PHChristy: Val, but "type" is separate from viability, health, etc
PHSmDog: Christy, unfortunately the parent club won't do anything about that.
PHChristy: I mean, look at English Bulldogs... their "type" mandates a dog who can't reproduce naturally.
curliousCresteds: had lab x bernese mnt dogs in the kennel a month or so ago
curliousCresteds: called them labernese
PHChristy: SmDog, no, I'm sure they won't
Clicker59: Val so true & I am not one of them that wants a change in the breeds
curliousCresteds: when I heard that I thought of lab x with havanese lol
PHSmDog: Christy... nor will AKC...
PHChristy: Mow!!! Welcome to Dog Breeding Chat! Our topic tonight is "Growing Out Puppies"
PHSmDog: Hey MOW
Clicker59: Nii Mow
Valkyrie: Hmm...then I'm not understanding like I thought. I was understanding type as meeting a standard.
PHMowgli: Hey everyone!!
ode2adream: Mow!
PHChristy: SmDog, how could AKC stop you if your parent club wanted to change their standard?
Sarasmushu: Hi Mow
Clicker59: Val you are fine
SamsSammy: Hi Mow.
PHChristy: Valkyrie, where in the standard does it say, must be able to deliver offspring naturally and easily?
PHSmDog: Christy, well to start with they would have to FOLLOW the standard that we have and not register color combos that are not listed in the standard...
PHChristy: type is really the essence of the breed, the qualities that make them that breed and no other. It is only part of the standard.
Valkyrie: But the *head* is larger than the breed standard.
PHMowgli: Christy although the parent club controls the standard the AKC allows any changes that they uphold, the parent club can change standard but AKC may not follow thoe changes
PHSmDog: Christy I agree, TYPE is what makes that particular breed what it is
Valkyrie: It will no longer be an icelandic because it won't look like one anymore.
PHChristy: there are things in the standard that aren't part of "type"
PHSmDog: Mow according to AKC THEY own the standards
Valkyrie: oooooh..
PHChristy: Val, OK, well in that case, yes, the head is obviously part of "type"
Valkyrie: ok
Clicker59: I am hanging in there
curliousCresteds: i thought it was up to the members of the parent club to write the standard?
PHMowgli: hmm SmDog according to their website the breed parent clubs own and control standards they just apply them
Clicker59: OK Mow
PHMowgli: AKC's website that is
PHSmDog: Curlious a few years back there was a HUGE court battle between AKC and several parent clubs... AKC claimed they owned the standards...
Sarasmushu: ok I have a stupid question?
Valkyrie: Okay, so when is a standard not a part of "type"?
PHChristy: Sara, go ahead
PHChristy: Valkyrie, no ....
Clicker59: i knoe nothing about Breeding
Sarasmushu: The UKC and hte AKC have different standards right?
curliousCresteds: the crested club just went through voting on a revised standard, the membership declined it so the changes were never sent to the akc
PHChristy: there is more in the standard than type
PHSmDog: Mow that's cuz they lost the lawsuit... LOL but given the chance they'll tell ya they own them
PHChristy: Sara, for some breeds, yes
PHMowgli: Ah Ok SmDog
Sarasmushu: ok so then it's hard to Say What the Srandard Really is then right?
PHSmDog: Mow and, of course, when the club does make changes AKC has to approve them....
PHChristy: Sara.... in this case, I wouldn't talk about the AKC standard or the UKC standard, but the standard of the parent club of the breed
PHSmDog: Sara, no I think that what's written by the parent club is what should be followed as closely as possible
PHMowgli: right SmDog although that AKC doesn't approve the changes they say they just approve whether they will uphold the new change LOL
curliousCresteds: most standards are similar between akc and ukc though
PHSmDog: UKC?
Sarasmushu: United kennel club
curliousCresteds: the canadian standard is different from the american standard for cresteds, but similar enough that a dog can match both standards fine
PHMowgli: UKC often follows standards from other countries
berta: united kennel club the club that used to "own" all the coonhounds and nitehunts etc
curliousCresteds: and the ukc standard is still different from both ckc and akc lol
PHChristy: Valkyrie, "type" is not a black and white concept
PHSmDog: Christy AMEN to that
PHMowgli: in shelties UKC follows the european standard not AKC or american standard
PHChristy: in some breeds, things like size and coat are so closely allied with "type" that you can't discount them. The Weimaraner, for instance
Sarasmushu: ok then my next question is who says they are all breeding to the AKC standard sinc ehtey all vary
PHChristy: no other breed comes in that color
PHSmDog: Ok, I'm outta the loop is UKC in the US or the Europe?
PHChristy: it's so much the essence of TYPE
Sarasmushu: Europe
PHChristy: UKC is the United States
PHMowgli: to me type is what makes us just know that a dog is of a certain breed such as a mask on a sibe with plume tail etc etc
Valkyrie: I see.
PHSmDog: <~~~ can't keep all these clubs separate
berta: in the usa
Clicker59: Mow that figures that can be confusing when they come to be in the Westminster Dog Shows
PHSmDog: Ok that's the one I THOUGHT it was
PHChristy: but in a breed where "any color goes," such as greyhounds, color is just not a part of type
PHChristy: UKC is a good ethical registry
Sarasmushu: sorry brain fart
PHChristy: they do more against puppy mills than AKC does
curliousCresteds: you should look at what venue the breeder is participating in, if they only go with ukc assume they are breeding to the ukc standard
Clicker59: Sara LOL
PHSmDog: Mow right, its what makes a certain breed LOOK like that breed
PHMowgli: UKC is based out of Kalamazoo Michigan they have shows and a registry
PHChristy: HI there Rebel! Welcome to Dog Breeding Chat! Our topic tonight is "Growing Out Puppies"
Clicker59: Hi Reba
PHSmDog: Mow do they have dog shows? Like AKC?
PHChristy: Valkyrie, "type" is a very rich concept to think about
PHChristy: and argue about
berta: yes
Valkyrie: It certainly is!
Clicker59: Christie LOL
Valkyrie: But I think I'm getting it.
PHChristy: you can get me ten breeders of the same breed and they'll argue about what "type" is in their breed
PHMowgli: SmDog no they are more like IABCA or Crufts
Valkyrie: It can be very convoluted it seems.
PHSmDog: Mow...oh....
PHChristy: Understanding "type" is part of the art of being a serious breeder or fancier of your breed
PHMowgli: they issues championships as well as gr ch and such
curliousCresteds: they have shows but they arent as complex or involved as akc shows
Clicker59: Chrstie That Figures
PHSmDog: Valk just like the color blue in yorkies everyone has an opinion and very few agree...
curliousCresteds: but still shows, championships, groups etc
PHChristy: UKC has obedience and other performance events
PHMowgli: SmDog I thoguht yorkies only came is steel and tan?
PHChristy: and their judges have to give commentary, like European judges
PHMowgli: is=in
curliousCresteds: obedience, agility, weight pull, hunt trials, etc
PHSmDog: Christy... I have a TYPE in my head... when I think of a yorkie I see that type in my head, and that's what I strive to breed for
PHChristy: right
Clicker59: Why would Breeders Of the Same breed argue about the Breed Standards of the aame breed?
PHChristy: me too, for my breed, SmDog
PHChristy: Clicker, good question.
PHChristy: human nature
Valkyrie: Wow...and the bybs think they have a clue? Amazing.
PHChristy: and the fact that beauty is in the eye of the beholder
PHMowgli: loo easy we each interept the standard slightly different
curliousCresteds: people are fighting about blue eyes in cresteds
PHChristy: Valkyrie, you can see why we get irritated at that type of "breeder"
PHSmDog: Mow not according to AKC... until recently they registered 23 color variations, including Rare Chocolate, and Tri color
Clicker59: It isd So silly Christie
PHChristy: Hi there RuffersRule! Welcome to Dog Breeding Chat! Our topic tonight is "Growing Out Puppies"
curliousCresteds: akc standard says dark eyes, lighter coloured dogs can have lighter coloured eyes
Valkyrie: absolutely!
PHMowgli: OMG SmDog
Clicker59: Hi Ruff
PHMowgli: hey Ruff
RuffersRule: Hi all
PHChristy: it's not just the general irresponsibility with the puppies, which is of course the most important thign
PHSmDog: VALK BYBs have NO clue.. if they did they would be 1) breeding to the standard and 2)doing the necessary testing on their dogs
PHChristy: it's that we have devoted ourselves to preserving our breeds as WHAT THEY ARE, or what they are SUPPOSED TO BE, and they don't know and don't care about that heritage and legacy
Valkyrie: I know that if I ask a client if they're breeding to improve the breed, I get blank looks.
PHSmDog: MOW no kidding...23 for a dog that the standard says is to be "Dark Steele Blue and Tan"
PHMowgli: dang SmDog I have a variety of colors in my breed but not that many LOL
Valkyrie: there doesn't seem to be a workable plan to fix that either
PHSmDog: Valk, I asked someone about a dog that should have had an OFA... I asked, is she OFA'd? They reply was...why No, she's AKC
curliousCresteds: at least you dont have a colour called rose taupe on your colour list
Clicker59: SmDog I have to agree with you on that I mention Puppy Mill or BYB she tells me then how are they being Breed?
PHChristy: the thing is, SmDog, it seems to me that being able to REGISTER a dog of an undesirable color but who is really truly a purebred dog out of a registered sire and dam, is not unreasonable. As long as they can't be shown.
doglover_nr: Hey everyone
PHChristy: Hi doglover! Welcome to Dog Breeding Chat! Our topic tonight is "Growing Out Puppies"
curliousCresteds: CKC is stupid, what colour is rose taupe?
RuffersRule: Hi doglover
PHChristy: LOL Curlious
doglover_nr: Hi
Valkyrie: Education falls on deaf ears more often than not
PHSmDog: Christy problem is they CAN be shown...no disqualifications in the breed
PHSmDog: That's what REALLY frosts me
Clicker59: SmaDog She is nott a Dog Person so she doesn't understnds what BYB or Puppy Mills means
PHChristy: SmDog, but then isn't that the fault of the parent club?
PHChristy: rather than AKC?
RuffersRule: Mow my Clicker books and movies came
doglover_nr: Hi everyone
PHMowgli: in shelties we have registerable but non showable colors
PHMowgli: oh great Ruff
RuffersRule: hidoglover how are u
doglover_nr: Good and U
PHSmDog: Christy, both actually, the standard gives ONE color combo, AKC added the rest by "Popular Demand" more or less. People would write in "Other" and list the colors... Akc would register it
PHChristy: hey we allow deerhounds in colors they don't actually come in
RuffersRule: I have a few more on the way
RuffersRule: Good thaks
PHChristy: OK, but what does the standard say?
Clicker59: Ruff you are in to Ckicker Training?
doglover_nr: Anyone here rescue dogs from shelters besides me
Valkyrie: May I have a organdy one please?
PHSmDog: Christy standard says "Dark Steele Blue and Tan". PERIOD>
RuffersRule: I want to learn clicker before I get my dog
PHSmDog: Have you ever SEEN a tri colored yorkie? THey look like a PAP
PHMowgli: but SmDog they are registerable but they should be penalized in ring then
PHChristy: SmDog, then I guess I don't see how you can show a dog in any other color, or at least, how any judge could ever put them up
PHChristy: I geuss you can SHOW THEM
PHChristy: Hi Geezer!
curliousCresteds: judges shouldnt put them up, but its just a fault
PHMowgli: doglover we actually have an adoption and rescue chat on fridays at 9 pm where you can discuss that
PHSmDog: Mow, but there are no disqualifications. I Can cut my dogs down, dye them Purple and put them in the ring. If I know the judge and the judge likes my dogs I can win
PHMowgli: hey Geezer
RuffersRule: Hi Geezer
doglover_nr: Ok
doglover_nr: thanks
PHChristy: my heart dog was from a shelter
PHGeezer: Hi Christy, Mow, and the bunch.
PHChristy: my chow mix, Colleen
curliousCresteds: some judges will see colour as less of a fault than bad tail set
PHMowgli: OMG smdog that is a huge fault with the standard then
doglover_nr: I have 10frim a shelter
PHChristy: curlious, well... in some breeds that's very true
Clicker59: Go get a clicler Training Book called Clickeing With Your Dog Ruff & there are DCVDS on Clicker Traiong Out uff
Valkyrie: Is that because it isn't listed in "disqualifications" then?
PHSmDog: Mow why do you think I've been screamin at the powers that be for so long? LOL
berta: there apparently was just an incident in CA with a person trying to build a major to finish her bitch. This persons mother is a well known miller and they brought out ALL the bitches they could find to a tiny little show that normally has about 3 Sams entered. They had a major with the addition of a handler with a class dog and a special and a new person to the area with a nice little bitch. The entire one class was supposedly excused for lack of merit ........ BOTH days they dogs were dirty and pee stained and one had a huge hot spot. I just the Sam ring was 3 or 4 deep the second day. Who would want their breed to gather that kind of attention.
PHMowgli: wow clicker then ireally want to see you there friday night LOL
RuffersRule: That is the one I got from the library
PHSmDog: Valk yep
doglover_nr: WHat is tonight clicker training
PHChristy: berta, OMG!
PHSmDog: Valk the dog could be 25 pounds and if the judge likes it and puts it up.... ohwell
doglover_nr: ?¿
Clicker59: Dog No
PHChristy: I was at a show where the judge sent out nearly the whole Irish Wolfhound entry saying "This is not a pet show"
curliousCresteds: no DQs with cresteds, you can enter the ring with a dobe and say its a crested and you cant be DQd
Valkyrie: oh dear
PHChristy: all of them were show dogs, scared the crap out of me because he was OUR judge next!
PHSmDog: Christy we need MORE judges like that
PHChristy: we were all petrified but he liked us LOL
Clicker59: Christie why?
PHSmDog: C urlious that's right... just like yorks
Valkyrie: awesome
RuffersRule: no just was telling Mow I got my books hee hee
PHChristy: SmDog, well, I'd agree in principle but not in practice, as those wolfhounds were fine IMO
PHSmDog: I wish more judges that the guts to do that
curliousCresteds: you get a judge who likes handlers, give a good handler a goat and get BOB
PHChristy: i wish more judges would withhold ribbons and dismiss for lack of merit, yes
PHChristy: LOL
Clicker59: Ruff you can Order that same book at Clickertraining.com
PHChristy: just not from ME!
doglover_nr: BYe
PHChristy: night doglover!
doglover_nr: see u friday at 9
PHMowgli: in my breed the judge will not even disqulify a dog who is not allowable per standard unless an exhibitor calls for it
PHSmDog: Christy, course there is the other end of that... wasn't it ...Oh What's his name that disqualified all of the champions in BOB class a few years back
PHMowgli: nite doglover
PHChristy: well folks, it's time for Showdog chat.... don't go anywhere.... I'm just throwing the keys now to Mowgli
Clicker59: Smog whay was that?
Valkyrie: That's my cue.
PHChristy: we should have a showdog chat topic of judges withholding ribbons and dismissing for lack of merit
Valkyrie: G'night all.
curliousCresteds: ive had ribbons withheld once at a ukc show, because my puff crested wasnt hairless enough for the judge
curliousCresteds: lol
Clicker59: Dmdog I mean
PHMowgli: Welcome to ShowDog Chat tonights topic is Juveniles in the Ring!!! share your brags!!!!
Clicker59: SmDog I mean
Clicker59: Why was that?
PHChristy: Mowgli, what do you think of that as a topic for next week?
PHMowgli: since we are already on topic just forge ahead LOL
berta: dogs or kids?
PHChristy: LOL berta
PHSmDog: MOW ... UGH... in MY Breed? LOL its just a waste of money
PHMowgli: fine christy LOL
PHChristy: Hi again Sara!
PHChristy: OK, next week
PHSmDog: Christy...thanks for having me
EClatSPs: Maybe if the phone will stop ringing, I can stay on for this chat.
curliousCresteds: so whats the topic this week?
PHChristy: ok folks, I need to get some dinner and feed and walk dogs, but I just wanted to thank you all for a fantastic chat tonight, and say how nice it was to have SmDog back!
EClatSPs: I do have a brag.
Clicker59: OK Christie
PHChristy: goodnight everyone, have a great Showdog Chat!
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