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Transcript: Dog Breeding Chat Tuesday, July 20, 2004: Secrets of Longevity PHChristy: Welcome to Dog Breeding Chat! Our topic tonight is Secrets of Longevity! PHChristy: Hiya Morgan! PHMorgan: Haroo everyone PHChristy: Hey there berta! Welcome to Dog Breeding Chat! Our topic tonight is Secrets of Longevity! berta: Oh call me bert PHChristy: This is a topic very near and dear to my heart, because one of the reasons that I began breeding Scottish Deerhounds was to try to improve longevity PHChristy: LOL bert OK PHMorgan: What is the average lifespan of Deerhounds, Christy? What about the rest of you? PHChristy: The average lifespan of a deerhound is 8 and a half years PHMorgan: I have pointers and they are anywhere from 12 to 18 years..... Most of the dogs in my pedigree have lived to be at least 15 or 16 PHFang: That must be hard Christy PHFang: Hi grr PHMorgan: I have a 10 year old bitch here who just finished her field title this past january. She's extremely fit PHChristy: Fang, I have been doing much better than that, fortunately! I'm getting them to 12 PHMorgan: That's great, Christy! berta: Samoyeds are mainly in the 12-13 year range but some bloodlines are dying at 7 - 9 which is awful. PHFang: That's great Christy PHChristy: I would say the natural lifespan of a deerhound is around 12, with a very, very few making it beyond that and most falling well short PHMorgan: Well, let's also talk about what we are losing them to.... What is finally taking them away from us? PHMorgan: In poitners, often it is cancer, but not until at least 10 in most dogs Grrr_nr: oh PHChristy: Cardiomyopathy and other heart problems are the big ones in "old age" deaths in my breed, or being euthanized due to quality of life issues PHChristy: severe arthritis, for instance PHFang: Don't most large breeds have a shorter lifespan anyway? PHChristy: Fang, yes berta: I have been fortunate that about 40% of ones I have bred have lived past 15. Even better is that they have been healthy PHChristy: but 8 and a half is too short even so PHChristy: Fang, how about your breed? PHMorgan: Some others are lost to "natural causes" PHChristy: Morgan, what is "natural causes"? berta: Diabetes, cancer....... PHMorgan: I have no idea.... LOL PHMorgan: Which is why I put it in "quotes" PHChristy: ah PHFang: Old age mostly...thank goodness. The diseases that claim my breed are young dog diseases unfortunately PHChristy: Yeah, I love it when cause of death is listed as "heart failure".... well, that's what we ALL die of, LOL PHFang: Accidental death, etc PHMorgan: But to further define it - old age and no apparent symptoms - dying in sleep PHChristy: Fang, old age isn't a cause of death, though, actually berta: Unfortunately heart problems are now turning up PHChristy: well, we all have to die of something PHMorgan: I don't see WHY???? PHFang: OH agreed Christy, but most of the dogs don't get any formal necropsy....they live to 14-16 PHChristy: I understand that if they live long enough they'll die of SOMETHING PHMorgan: I think our dogs should just go on forever PHChristy: Morgan, that sounds good to me! PHFang: Amen Morgan berta: What breed Fang? PHFang: Toy Manchesters PHMorgan: Dying peacefully with their heads on our tombstones PHChristy: I've thought long and hard over the years, though, as to how much we can influence this by breeding, and now much is husbandry PHFang: Unfortunately cardiomyopathy hits our dogs less than a year old. berta: IMHO both PHFang: We have the usual diabetes and hypothyroid....but those are managed for the most part PHChristy: at different times I've believed different amounts of both, and now I think that it's even more flexible than that... I think that in some dogs, husbandry makes a HUGE difference, and other seem pretty much impervious to husbandry PHFang: we have vWd, but thankfully no MT has died from it as ours is different than dobes PHChristy: Fang, cardio is mostly old age in our breed, but we do have some who get it young. However, I think those are separate conditions PHChristy: The cardiologist I used to work for told me that most, maybe all, giant breed dogs will have at least the beginnings of cardiomyopathy if they live long enough PHFang: We have some some very young pups that just fall over dead, when they are necropsied it shows cardio PHFang: Which is very scary and apparently totally unpredicable PHMorgan: I have to take exception to the terms "usual" when applied to diabetes and hypothyroid PHChristy: Fang, in our breed too, although it's less common than the older onset cardio PHMorgan: I don't think they shoudl be USUAL. And I have a 14 year old dog with hypothyroid and she's healthy as a horse (not a pointer, BTW) PHChristy: Do you mean usual in your breed, Fang? Because I've never heard of a deerhound with diabetes PHChristy: we do have hypothyroidism PHFang: That's what I mean by old age tho....nobody necropsies a 14 year old dog in our breed LOL PHChristy: although I've never had a dog who was hypothyroid PHChristy: knock on wood PHFang: I have 2 Christy but they are Min Pins PHChristy: how about in Sammies, bert? berta: Yes it occurs in Samoyeds as does SA PHChristy: I don't have the study right at hand, but Dr. John Dillberger, who is the health liason for our national club (a vet and deerhound breeder) did an analyses of deerhound causes of death.... berta: I had Muirgen tested when she was about 18m as she hadn't come into season. She was just a once a year gilrl PHChristy: and he found, basically, that even eliminating the three biggest health problems in our breed would not overall change the average age of death by more than a few months PHFang: wow Christy that's kinda sad huh PHChristy: that is usual in my breed, bert.... first heat at 18 months, then once every 10-12 months PHChristy: and of course, that is normal for a wolf PHChristy: Fang, yes, and no PHChristy: for an individual dog it can make all the difference in the world berta: First one I ever had that wasn't spot on every 6 months PHChristy: eliminate the thing that killed that individual dog, and you can extend that dog's life by years PHFang: Yes I see that Christy PHChristy: but statistically it doesn't give the BREED years PHChristy: there is something about giantism that seems to shorten lifespan PHMorgan: I don't get that, Christy PHChristy: but I don't know how much we could influence that by breeding and how much by husbandry berta: In humans too PHFang: ok I gotcha. But as a breeder that has to be somewhat disheartening to know that the impact isn't that great for all of your hard work as a whole PHChristy: Morgan, I've thought about it a lot PHMorgan: Elephants live a GOOD long time for a 4-legged animal PHFang: LOLOL Morgan PHChristy: Elephants are large, they are not giants PHMorgan: And mice, not so long... Sow what gives with dogs? PHChristy: giantism is not the same as being large PHMorgan: OK - so what is the difference? PHMorgan: Being the largest one of a given species? PHChristy: No, it's a genetic mutation PHChristy: that you then select for PHChristy: similarly to how they select for dwarfism in the short-legged breeds PHChristy: or rather, how they SELECTED for dwarfism PHChristy: instead of just breeding larger dogs to larger dogs to increase overall size in the breeds, as we do today PHChristy: basically they selected mutations, the "one off" freak dog PHMorgan: Aha - so that explains why some of the body systems simply do not work properly PHChristy: so you might end up inadvertantly selecting for all kinds of deleterious genes PHChristy: or not PHMorgan: Or, that they break down early PHChristy: that's why not all giants have the same health problems PHChristy: however, I don't know that is true, it's just a theory PHChristy: the other possible reason is what Morgan said, that they just "wear out" sooner berta: BERT if you please I don't have to like my "new" name PHFang: Well don't human giants have shortened lifepsans also? PHFang: *lifespan PHChristy: that the basic template for "dog" is only meant to be so large, and no larger PHChristy: I wonder about that, however, because deerhounds are tall but not that heavy PHChristy: wolves can weigh what a deerhound weighs kaana: Hi I need to ask a question on eclampsia, can anyone help? PHChristy: so I'm not sure why that alone would make them "wear out" esp the heart PHChristy: unless the height is the issue with the heart PHChristy: kaana, of course, please go ahead! PHChristy: Rueger, welcome to Dog Breeding Chat! Rueger: howdy PHChristy: Our topic tonight is Secrets of Longevity! PHMorgan: Go ahead, Kaana we will try PHMorgan: try even PHMorgan: We LOVE questions PHMorgan: Makes us feel smart PHMorgan: :-D berta: It's so secret we can't figure it out kaana: My friend just had 6 norwich puppies..they are 2 days old and had to rush her to the vet..she is ok now, but I would like to know about her food now PHMorgan: More info, Kaana PHMorgan: What did the vet administer? PHMorgan: Is the bitch eating properly? PHMorgan: Is she supplementing the puppies at all? PHMorgan: Are the pups gaining weight? kaana: had to have calcium gluconate IV..tem 105..but she is back home now..and the vet told her to feed her cat food ????? PHChristy: Hello GAC! Welcome to Dog Breeding Chat! PHMorgan: Catfood has a very high protein content and most dogs LOV IT GAChesters: Hi all PHMorgan: Probably just want her to eat as much as possible PHChristy: Our topic tonight is Secrets of Longevity! Rueger: hey gac berta: Hi Chesters kaana: and soy thingies GAChesters: hey rueger, bert, morgan et all Rueger: it sounds like the bitch had eclampsia to be administered calcium IV kaana: I thought that soy binds calcium PHChristy: Soy does bind calcium kaana: yes..the diagnosis is eclampsia PHMorgan: I would recommend adding some goat's milk to the bitch's diet and supplementing any or all puppies who are not gaining weight as they would normally (not sure normal weight gain on norwiches - pointers gain an ounce a day) PHChristy: the phytates in soy bind calcium sporty_nr: hi everyone!! kaana: but I like to know what home cooked food she should give the mom GAChesters: Hi sporty sporty_nr: hi kaana: goat milk sounds good kaana: will tell her that.. PHChristy: Hi sporty! Welcome to Dog Breeding Chat! Our topic tonight is Secrets of Longevity! kaana: tell her PHChristy: although at the moment we are discussing eclampsia sporty_nr: cool PHChristy: kaana, also, I don't like soy as it's a potent hormone disruptor PHChristy: I would not use it, no matter what the vet said GAChesters: I just wanna know why my back yard bred Min Pin who is 9 is healthier than any dog in my house! LOL PHChristy: LOL GAC kaana: and thank you PHChristy: I don't know, my chow mix from the shelter had more health problems than all my deerhounds combined sporty_nr: my dog just got hit by a car on saturday PHChristy: sometimes random bred dogs are very healthy, but so are sometimes carefully bred dogs GAChesters: Never been sick, never needed professional dental...spit puppies out (when I bred her to a CH) like no problem-o PHChristy: sporty, I'm very sorry to hear that GAChesters: oh sorry sporty kaana: very sorry PHMorgan: Did your dog survive, Sporty? sporty_nr: yeah.... sporty_nr: she cant walk for 2 weeks Rueger: sorry sporty sporty_nr: its alright GAChesters: How did it happen sporty? PHChristy: I'm really glad she made it, though PHMorgan: I'm so glad she made it, Sporty! PHChristy: A leading cause of death of young deerhounds is being hit by a car.... PHChristy: but after age of 2 that drops off dramatically PHMorgan: You might invest in some nice chewies for her to keep her busy while she's recovering - help keep her quiet PHChristy: I believe it's the leading cause of death of young dogs in my breed, but I'd need to doublecheck that PHMorgan: Lots of pointers are squashed, too Rueger: shelties too as they try to herd the cars PHChristy: I tell prospective deerhound owners this all the time, to impress on them that they need FENCES and LOCKED GATES and not to be casual about this sporty_nr: she was running with the nextdoor neibors dog in the road and got hit PHChristy: of course, I don't think getting HBC is really a genetic issue, except maybe for herding dogs PHChristy: sporty, how did she get out? sporty_nr: what do u mean?? PHChristy: how did she get out to run in the road? sporty_nr: o Rueger: Christy even on herding dogs it would be my own fault for not keeping them in yard PHChristy: Hello Mini! Welcome to Dog Breeding Chat! Our topic tonight is Secrets of Longevity! PHMorgan: WEll, I will say that as a breeder, one of the biggest things I like to know about a potential dog to add to my breeding program is the longevity of the dogs in the pedigree sporty_nr: hi minni PHMorgan: I try to find out WHAT those who have passed on died from and at what age Rueger: hey mini GAChesters: Hi mini PHChristy: Morgan, me too! Over the years I've become more focused on the QUALITY of their old age, as well as the number of years, but I think that what we want to have is as many long lived dogs in our pedigrees as possible Rueger: MOrgan I do that too espeically since it could have been a genetic disease PHMorgan: That kind of discussion often gives you a LOT of information not necessary given up front in a breeding discussion MiniSch_nr: Hi and Morgan, I do agree about looking about longevity of a dog/bitch's lines before I add them to my line. PHChristy: my 11 year old litter's dam was quite long lived (12) - the sire died at 8 and a half but of an accident, so we don't know what his natural lifespan would have been PHMorgan: Asking about various dogs, where they are, and fining out that htey are "gone" can lead to Great information about the health issues in a pedigree without having to say "So, what nasty buggers are hiding in YOUR genetic closet?" PHChristy: however, what is interesting is that this litter was linebred on a dog that was not at all long lived PHChristy: I bought sisters from a litter, both lived til 12, but none of their many littermates were long lived MiniSch_nr: Was very impressed recently when I took a bitch to be bred - the "old lady" of the house was 12 years old and just as black as she could be - My bitch is a black miniature schnauzer. PHChristy: so it makes me wonder, again, about husbandry PHChristy: Mini, I lost to see the old ones still looking and doing well! That is what I want in my breeding program! berta: Gee Christy it COULD be thier diet PHChristy: there are a lot of very long lived dogs in my foundation bitch's pedigree PHChristy: LOL bert, yes, it could PHChristy: Hello Mernie! Welcome to Dog Breeding Chat! Our topic tonight is Secrets of Longevity! MiniSch_nr: The mother of my foundation bitch recently died at the age of 14 Mernie: Hi everyone PHChristy: I think that diet and lifestyle can help a dog reach his or her longest potential lifespan, but you need the genetic raw material too PHMorgan: I think a lot of what makes a dog live long is husbandry, but also mental health. Dogs who are kept busy, both mentally and physically, tend to live longers PHChristy: Morgan, I couldn't agree more!!!!!!!!!! PHMorgan: DOgs tied in a backyard or kenneled are notoriously shorter lived than littermates kept in a house with a busy life berta: This avatar (picture) beside me is of my 14 year old It was taken on her birthday in June PHMorgan: Additionaly, dogs kept busy are better monitored than those given less overall attention PHMorgan: She lookes AMAZING! PHChristy: Mine is one of my 11 year olds :) berta: I tend to think she is but then I'm alittle prejudiced Mernie: I know what you mean, I'm always kept busy in the colder months with my dogs. PHMorgan: Mine is of my 10 year old, but she was only 18 months in this photo PHMorgan: She klooks about the same berta: She klooks??? berta: Is that like pointing? PHChristy: LOL PHChristy: Mernie, what is your breed? Mernie: I have malamutes, 2 six year olds and a 2 year old. PHMorgan: Er... yes, berta, it is... LOL PHMorgan: It's when the dog wears a mask and wanders around the neighborhood getting candy PHChristy: ROFL berta: Oh I see PHChristy: is that something you have selected for in your breeding program? PHMorgan: Morgan is still very good at it Rueger: ha ha PHMorgan: YES< all my dogs must klook properly or I spay and place tem PHMorgan: them PHChristy: I'm glad, once you lose that klooking gene you never get it back berta: Are your fingers tired tonite Morgan? PHMorgan: Z is the best at it - she has Easter Bunny ears PHChristy: Marnie and Mini, what are lifespans like in your breeds, overall? berta: I have some of those but my girls won't keep them on Rueger: Morgan is there anyway to get the klooking gene in a breed that never had it? PHMorgan: I am suffering from a HORRIBLE bout of eczema and my fingers are very swollen, cracked and uncooperative PHMorgan: But I also just can't type PHMorgan: :-) Mernie: 10 to 12 years but I have heard of dogs living to 15. PHChristy: I confess I have a fantasy of a 15 year old deerhound Rueger: ha I got you beat I am on day of no cigarettes in a cold turkey style of quitting and my hands are jumping LOL PHChristy: but I want those 15 years to be QUALITY PHMorgan: I'll be next on that, Reuger PHChristy: wow, Rueger, contratulations! Rueger: sorry day 3 of no smoking PHMorgan: I promised myself I'd quit before I was 35 Mernie: I hear you there!! PHMorgan: I have 6 months to go berta: GOOD for you Rue.......... that's a toughie PHChristy: Hi there carlie! Welcome to Dog Breeding Chat! Our topic tonight is Secrets of Longevity! PHMorgan: Am busily smoking like a chimney NOW Rueger: well morgan if I did that I am late LOL Rueger: hey carlie PHMorgan: My grandfather called me last week and offered me $5000 if I quit PHChristy: dogs who live with smokers DO have health problems because of it.... PHChristy: wow, Morgan, are you going to take it? Rueger: sure morgan make it worse by making me visualize LOL Mernie: How many people feed raw here? PHChristy: You should talk to PHGinger, she quit a lifelong habit a few years ago PHMorgan: I am going to quit for myself. If I am $5000 richer, so much the better PHChristy: Mernie, I do, I have fed raw for 18 and a half years. berta: ONE PHMorgan: I remember.... LOL PHMorgan: I am going to the doctor for happy drugs or I will murder my entire family and all my dogs berta: Actually 5+ years though PHChristy: ROFL PHMorgan: It does NOt help that I am allergic to the patch and cannot chew gum PHChristy: oh wow Rueger: that is what I did Morgan I decided I wanted to quit and just said this is it no more and here I am 3 days later ready to kill PHChristy: Ginger had some software program that told her each day how much money she had saved by not smoking berta: Try sucking on licorrice.......however you spell it PHMorgan: <---has made several abortive attempts to quit before. Hubby BEGGED me to just HAVE ONE last time...> LOL Mernie: Wow, I've been feeding it for 5 years and I'm still having problems.
PHChristy: but.... let's get back to our DOG'S longevity, not ours
MiniSch_nr: 14 years old is considered ancient. I think the oldest mini I have heard of was 17.
PHChristy: Mernie, what problems are you having?
PHMorgan: OK - so anyway, I think another factor in longevity is regular vet checks
PHChristy: Mini, that's interesting, I tend to think of toy breeds as being able to make it even to 18 or more
PHMorgan: I hae a friend who at one time had 5 dogs over the age of 12 (all pointers)
PHChristy: Morgan, wow!
PHChristy: were they closely related?
Rueger: I am to the point I have two ages of dogs in my kennel old and pups
PHMorgan: She said that it was amazing how they would go into distress of one sort or another, she'd run them right into the vet, and there often was QUITE A BIT that could be done for them, so long as it was DONE, and it was not always extreme or cost prohibitivie
berta: Hey I once won an obedience brace class with my a 12 yo and her 9 yo daughter.
PHMorgan: yes, all from the same lines
PHMorgan: Congrats, Berta
PHMorgan: Ooh - brag, brag!
Rueger: oh that is great bert
Mernie: Dry coats, my rescue bitch has chronic yeast infections and can't get her to drop the excess weight.
PHMorgan: SCarlett got her 2nd CD leg this weekend with a 191
PHChristy: Mernie, can you describe exactly what you feed, in detail?
berta: That was my 14 yo's dam and granddam
PHMorgan: She had one she nursed throug a few incidents and it lived 4 years past the time folks thought it would
berta: Congrats Morgan !!!
PHChristy: Morgan, congratulations!
berta: Good score too
berta: Don
Rueger: Congrats morgan
berta: oops Don't think I've ever seen a pointer in obed
PHChristy: yeah, those nine points you didn't get are what I'd get if I tried with a deerhound
Rueger: no christy deerhounds do obedience
berta: Christy ......... the trick is you take one of the OLD dogs
berta: Well dang where is everyone going??
PHMorgan: I think they all got booted
PHMowgli: Ok it appears it is time for Show Dog Chat so come on everyone share those brags before we get into our topic
PHChristy: well, I'm going to go ahead and head out, I need to breathe deeply for a while, LOL
Mernie: I'm so frustrated, I've started going back to kibble in the morning.
PHFang: Welcome to Show Dog Chat!! Tonight’s Topic is “Getting Started”.
PHChristy: Mernie, PLEASE come to Holistic, we'll figure it out!
PHMowgli: hey dogcaps
PHFang: Hi dog
PHChristy: :)
dogcaps: Howdy folks
PHMowgli: alright every one brag if you got one
PHChristy: goodnight all, I will see you n ext week, or at my Holistic Dog Care Chat on Thursday!
PHMowgli: Brags????? anyone????
PHFang: No brags Mow.....staying home for a month!
PHMowgli: MOrgan want to give us your brag again?
PHMorgan: Night, guys
PHFang: Nite Morgan
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