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Transcript: Dog Breeding Chat Tuesday, July 26, 2005: Researching Bloodlines PHChristy: Welcome to Dog Breeding Chat! Our topic tonight is "Researching Bloodlines." PHMorgan: Sorry I'm late PHChristy: <---waiting eagerly for cocker's good news CockerLuv: LOL berta: storms since Sunday (or was it Sat) nite..... but we do need the rain CockerLuv: My female is pregnant! CockerLuv: Pups are due last week of August! PHChristy: Cocker!!! Congratulations!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Clicker59: Christie YIKES When did the Beagle Leave? CockerLuv: :) PHMorgan: Hooray - Puppies! berta: 65.....!!! we had almost 100 today RottnYote: good news, good news...I had to cancel a trip to the sieger nationals but now I can afford to go, thats good news for us!!! RottnYote: lol PHChristy: puppies are MUCH better than booze and chocolate! CockerLuv: Yeah her first litter and I'm excited! Rueger: yeah berta really cold PHChristy: LOL Rottn, yes, ti's great news! RottnYote: yayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy RottnYote: lol ode2adream: lol Clicker59: Cocker cool PHChristy: So, CockerLuv, to help drag us kicking and screaming back on topic, can you tell us a little about what you or your mentor did to research the bloodlines for your breeding?
PHChristy: am I smooth or what?
Clicker59: When did the Beagle Leave?
RottnYote: bahahahaha
Rueger: as 30 yr old scotch christy LOL
RottnYote: I have a database with almosy 8000 rottweilers in it now, fascinating work
berta: Our agility trials are this weekend so I would love to have the 65 for the dogs.. it is supposed to drop to the 70's though
PHMorgan: Very smooth, Christy
Clicker59: Where Beata?
CockerLuv: The breeder I get my cockers from had a female and in her bloodline was nothing but Champions. That caught my attention!
PHChristy: has not left yet
CockerLuv: I've never saw such a pedigree before and I was amazed!
berta: what aspect of research ? genetic....... temperment?
berta: In western PA
PHChristy: berta, I think you'd research ALL OF IT
RottnYote: lol...everything
PHChristy: Cocker, well, in her direct bloodline.... but I consider the "bloodline" to be siblings too
Clicker59: OK Keep me posted OK And if I leave it is for Piano lessons tonight
PHChristy: I can't imagine there is any dog living who has nothing but champions in its bloodline
berta: yeh but I'm paranoid
RottnYote: i'd love to see that! *G*
CockerLuv: Me either until I saw this one....she had a few who we your regular joes..lol
Rueger: me too yote
RottnYote: berta, so am I...I'm anal about clearances and temeprament
Clicker59: Douchie is learing to hold her paw in my hand
PHChristy: I find the biggest obstacle to research is that so many breeders just don't keep that good of a track
RottnYote: wow my typing is rott'n tonight...no pun intended
PHChristy: they rely on memory
CockerLuv: There is a book called The World of the Cocker Spaniel and this females pedigree is all in this book. OUr breeder has a grandson from the dog on the front cover.
PHChristy: which over the years fades
PHChristy: and they also often remember mostly what they WANT to remember
PHChristy: and many just don't keep that good track of pets
berta: Me too about the only dogs without CH on their names are the ones I directly own.......... even their kids are finished but not the ones I own. well, except for a couple
CockerLuv: Other than that, that is what caught my eye and got me looking into bloodlines and thats why I'm here tonight!
PHChristy: I get so much spotty information
RottnYote: christy, we in rotties revived the data available back to 1907 with the first registry ever kept in germany
PHChristy: wow, Rottn
RottnYote: health clearances and the whole 9 yards
PHChristy: you'd think we could do this in our breed since it's so small numerically
RottnYote: pawvillage has the majority of the research
PHMorgan: I keep everything
PHMorgan: EVERYTHING
PHChristy: the breeder I most respect has TOTAL records of EVERY dog she ever bred
PHChristy: like Morgan
PHMorgan: I file all photos and important correspondence under folders titles damXsire
RottnYote: cocker, champions are wonderful, but be sure all the health clearnaces are there too!
PHMorgan: That way, if I forget, I can look it up easily
PHChristy: even though she has, in around 20 years, bred 26-30 litters
PHChristy: exactly Morgan
Clicker59: Christie That's not good when they don't keep good records on bloodliined where they rely on Memory
PHChristy: Clicker, that's right
CockerLuv: I will..I know CH are good, but I look for health and personalities as well and ect.
PHMorgan: I have other files, too, with photos and pedigrees, on the computer, plus a list of all my dogs' titles
PHChristy: we don't all have perfect memories (present company excluded of course LOL), and some of us have CONVENIENT memories
RottnYote: good good
CockerLuv: I am here to learn from you all...:)
RottnYote: i have selective memory
PHChristy: we remember the three dogs who lived to 12 and forget the three in that litter who went to pet homes and died at 4 or 5
PHMorgan: I keep track of all my "services" and judging assignments, as well, so I can apply for my judges license without having to wrack my brains 10 years from now
Rueger: I have restrictive memory I only want to remember the good stuff LOL
PHChristy: however, that's OUR dogs
berta: You know that book that you used to be able to purchase from the AKC........ well I had one and dutifully put everything in it................ then Muirgen (my paper destroyer) got ahold of it
Clicker59: My memory is fading where important things are concerned Christie LOL
PHChristy: the problem is when we have to rely on other breeders' memories or records
PHMorgan: I do ask about the good and bad when I'm researching pedigrees. You'd be surprised what folks will remember when you let them tell stories
Clicker59: Christie So true
PHChristy: I sometimes feel that I have to make so many compromises because the information I want literally doesn't exist
RottnYote: I just found out some frustrating news
PHChristy: Rottn, what's that?
Clicker59: Rottn what?
CockerLuv: Rottn..what is it?
Rueger: you want all those forms from AKC you can fill out on computer and print to hard copy?
RottnYote: my new little girl's sire failed his OFA on elbows, and the owner/breeder flat out LIED about it
PHChristy: Hi, Pat! Welcome to Dog Breeding Chat! Our topic tonight is "Researching Bloodlines."
Clicker59: OH NO Sorry Rottn
Clicker59: Hi Pat
RottnYote: i found this out a few weeks back, and now it has caused me to reconsider the stud I plan to use for her
PHChristy: Rottn, I'm so sorry to hear that!
Rueger: I got the forms scanned them then made them so I can fill them out on adobe acrobat reader
Pat_nr: Hi to all from Mich.
berta: they send one form with the litter registration now don't they?
PHChristy: I guess when I said some had bad memories, I should also have mentioned that some actually lie and deceive :(
ode2adream: wow
PHMorgan: How did you find this, out Rottn? Meaning - how did YOU research this info?
Rueger: yes berta but only litter record
RottnYote: all offspring and siblings and sire/dam are fine
PHChristy: nicely done
PHMorgan: Well, that's good
Clicker59: So true Christie
PHMorgan: Well, frankly, I wanna know how she found out
PHMorgan: But yeah, it works
berta: well fortunately she left enough information intact (not eaten) that I could rebuild it.... but it's not longer in a book form
Rueger: I have all forms individual dog record breeding records everything like 20 forms even a whelping calendar and puppy data forms
RottnYote: we were waiting on his clearance, and the owner/breeder had said basically it's coming, come to find out from someone else, he had been submitted and failed one elbow...undetermined, so not dysplasia nessecarily
PHChristy: are you sure it's true, Rottn?
PHMorgan: I have to say, I would rely more on the coming clearance than rumor from someone else
Clicker59: Rotton OH NO
RottnYote: not so long ago, nobody even DID elbows
PHChristy: GMTA
PHMorgan: Even if that person is usually truthful
Pat_nr: Did you ask the breeder about it?
RottnYote: oh, it's true
Rueger: I keep mine in a big 3 ring binder in sheet protectors now after Johnny fixed mine LOL
RottnYote: it's common knowledge now
berta: You're a computer wizard Rue
PHMorgan: Yeah, THEY said so.... SIGH
berta: brb
Rueger: nah just some basic adjusting to make it easy even a pedigree form just type and print LOL
PHMorgan: SO I guess the best way to insure clearance is to SEE THEM
RottnYote: I'm not overly concerned...elbows can be thrown off my positioning, injury, etc...so it's not HUGE, like say, CERF or hips
Clicker59: How can Rottn find this information out if it is a rumor or the truth Christie?
PHMorgan: Or check the registry like OFA
Pat_nr: A friend of ours has a Tervuren boy that won't pass Hip certification because he broke his leg as apup. It's fine now, but shows up as aberrant on x-rays.
RottnYote: clicker, OFA has a public database
PHMorgan: I offer to show folks the clearance if they like, and refer them to the OFA website
RottnYote: pat, exactly
Clicker59: Good Rottn then check that out
RottnYote: I have copies of every clearnace on the sire and dam of all of my dogs
PHChristy: we don't have anything in our breed that OFA tracks, unfortunately
RottnYote: christy really?
PHMorgan: Yes, but you can ask for vet checks
RottnYote: what do you test for
PHChristy: the only test we have is a cystinuria test from UPenn and it's highly unreliable if negative (although a positive test is reliable)
RottnYote: so false negative...thats no help
Rueger: <----Mowgli in disguise how are you tonight?
PHMorgan: For example, if a bitch were coming in to my place to be bred, I would only rely on a written vet brucellosis (slightly different issue) or take her right to MY vet
RottnYote: I will not be breeding icy till she receives her CHIC #
Clicker59: Christie Sorry Christie I saw a Scottish Deer Hound on trhe Dog Show Over the weekjend & I thought of you
Pat_nr: Or do AI.
PHChristy: I myself do a cardiac ultrasound, ACTH stim test, cystinuria test on males (females can carry it but not get it), and regular health screening. And full thyroid panel.
PHChristy: and clotting panel
ode2adream: Oh! There you are! *smiles* I'm alright. Better now that I have my computer back. *lol* How are you doing?
PHChristy: as a pre-breeding screening
berta: OFA is only as good as the persons involved
Clicker59: Christie good
PHMorgan: Yes, but it is better than nothing
PHMorgan: OFa, I mean
Rueger: pretty good just tired training a whole bunch of new hosts right now
RottnYote: we do hips, elbows, cardiac and cerf
PHChristy: but none of that is definitive, all those things could be fine on Tuesday and go to hell on Wednesday, so you can't call them "clearances"
PHChristy: Hi, Rouen! Welcome to Dog Breeding Chat! Our topic tonight is "Researching Bloodlines."
Clicker59: Hi Rouen
Rouen: hi christy, clicker
RottnYote: some do thyroid as well
PHChristy: I've done hips, but there has never been a dysplastic deerhound so it's kind of, you know.... just for show if you will
PHMorgan: It is good to check some things
RottnYote: exactly, redundant...lol
ode2adream: I can imagine. *smiles* Been dealing with a lot of headaches online myself. *lol*
PHMorgan: Even if they are rare
PHChristy: I'm basically willing to do anything
Clicker59: IU gotcha Christie
PHChristy: but there's "rare" and there's "never"
Rueger: I have to resend your minerals they came back to me yesterday opened up and mailing label half missing
PHMorgan: There is not much history of epilepsy in my pedigrees, but I still usually wait until my girls are 3 or 4 to breed, just in case.....
PHChristy: I'm willing to do hips myself but I can't require it of stud dogs I use, it's just so out of the realm of what deerhound breeders will do or th ink about
RottnYote: I had a Bergamasco here for a private lesson last week...what a fascinating breed
Rueger: your computer having problems?
berta: I've done thyroid panels OFA CERF and Optigen testing for genetics
PHMorgan: They are very odd, Rott
PHMorgan: And SMELLY.... LOL
Rueger: same for us berta plus thyroid
RottnYote: he wasnt smelly YET...lol...still a babe
PHChristy: berta, that's great... I think that eventually we'll have SO much more useful genetic testing available
PHMorgan: That is a dog whose respect you must earn in order to train it
PHMorgan: BIG TIME
PHChristy: we want it, we just aren't quite tehre yet
RottnYote: I wont like him as much when his coat is full grown...lol
Rueger: oh never mind you said thyroid LOL
RottnYote: one sec, i took a pic
PHMorgan: I have to say one of the hardest types of research to do is also using photographs to evaluate dogs. They can be so deceptive
ode2adream: Ok, I was wondering why they hadn't arrived was worried someone stole them. Was about to go hunting. *lol* Yeah. Last week I sent the machine into the shop and a jerk we've been dealing with for the past 4 months hacked my forum and brought it down again.
Rueger: howdy Val
Rouen: hi val
PHChristy: hi there Val! Welcome to Dog Breeding Chat! Our topic tonight is "Researching Bloodlines."
Clicker59: I need to go fot Piano lessosn so I will try tio get back at the end of this chat & if I don't I will See Yout Day After Tomorrow Christie & Morgan
berta: Unfortunately there are alot of so called breeders out there in many breeds that will cover up rather than disclose something they think might cost them a stud fee
Valkyrie: helloooo
Clicker59: Val Hi & Bye
Valkyrie: bye click
Clicker59: Niters everybody
Rouen: night clicker
PHChristy: Morgan, I couldn't agree more! I do use the pedigree book to look at photos, but who the hell knows? I prefer to talk to someone who knew the dog, if it's from before my time
berta: Hi Val
PHChristy: Night CLicker
PHChristy: I can't imagine using a dog I haven't laid eyes on
RottnYote: http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v292/yoteviolet/Lothario4.jpg
Valkyrie: hiya berta
PHMorgan: I agree
Rueger: what is wrong with the computer?
PHMorgan: And you even have to evaluate THEIR idea of "Sound" and "good tail" and things that shouldn't be subjective, but often are
PHChristy: kind of Briard meets OES
PHChristy: Morgan, exactly
RottnYote: for now...lol
PHMorgan: My idea of sound isn't the same as a wonderful breeder/source of mine
ode2adream: the sound card died. *lol*
PHMorgan: But I know her well enough to know what she MEANS by "sound" or "Good tail" or nice head
PHChristy: so I look at photos, talk to people who saw the dog, try to get as much health info as I possibly can about the lines and the dogs... and then I hope for the best. It's not what you'd call scientific :(
Rueger: well that is an easy 15 dollar fix
ode2adream: Yup..fixed now..thankfully:)
RottnYote: thats what most do christy
PHChristy: we could do better, though, and many of us want to
Rueger: see now I would take a computer in for a sound card I would just buy a new sound card pop out old and pop in new LOL
RottnYote: my idea of a nice rottie is SO FAR from friends in the breed is amazing
PHMorgan: Well, let's face it, there is NO WAY to know EVERYTHING. But we have to find out as much as WE CAN
PHChristy: of course, I do believe that the age of "genetic overload" is almost upon us, LOL
berta: some people who have bred some decent dogs don't really understand good movement or structure... they just got lucky then think everything out of that dog walks on water
PHChristy: at first we'll love it, but one day we'll be here complaining about that, too
PHMorgan: Got that right, Berta
PHChristy: and how the art has gone out of it, and how it was better in the old days
PHChristy: well, berta, that's it in a nutshell!
Rueger: christy that is true
PHMorgan: I had someone say, when I asked about Such and Such a dog, well, she's out of So and so, as if that meant she was perfect
PHChristy: sigh
PHChristy: magical thinking
ode2adream: Yeah..we did that at first. But we also suspected there might be other problems. So the guy checked it to make sure it was just the sound card.
PHChristy: it's everywhere
PHMorgan: YEP
RottnYote: lol
PHMorgan: Too bad it doesn't work
PHChristy: ROFL
PHChristy: you got that right!
PHMorgan: Now where DID I put my wand?
berta: lately it's been that overextended reach and or drive .... it looks flashy on sidegait but it's SO incorrect
PHMorgan: I'd like to use it on the beagle... LOL
RottnYote: if you don't strive for the total package, you're not doing your breed any good
Rueger: I stole it Morgan
RottnYote: strive for perfection every time
PHMorgan: And see where it's got you, Reuger?
PHMorgan: All your dogs are too tall and have short, white coats..... LOL
Rueger: <----- gives back Morgans Wand!!!!!!
PHMorgan: And a penchant for birds
Rueger: no they don't I have short dogs LOL
Rueger: but you got the bird part right
ode2adream: lol
RottnYote: *dances around the room excited about the sieger nationals *
PHMorgan: That wand is tuned to pointers.... careful how you use it
RottnYote: I'll shut up now
PHMorgan: LOL
RottnYote: [img id=em-5]
berta: My breed calls for moderate but a moderate dog doesn't stand a snowballs chance in you know where
Rueger: dang no wonder I am not gtting pups sheltties just cannot have pointers
PHMorgan: IT's wonderful how the internet has become so useful for research. Now we can obtain information and pedigrees and phtoos from all over the world
RottnYote: my first sieger nationals in a decade in the breed...hilarious
PHChristy: and see multiple photos of dogs without first having to contact the breeder... sometimes we can avoid hurt feelings that way
PHChristy: Hi Liz77! Welcome to Dog Breeding Chat! Our topic tonight is "Researching Bloodlines."
RottnYote: christy, how TRUE!!
Liz77: hi all
PHChristy: before chat is over, remind me to ask about topics for the future....
PHMorgan: I researched a dog from New Zealand and got lots of anecdotes about his hunting and temperament, plus photos of his get and his siblings
PHMorgan: It was most useful
PHChristy: I hate to inquire about a dog and then decide not to use him, if I can avoid it
PHMorgan: Ciurse, she neglected to tell em how his bite had been fixed.... LOL
RottnYote: I find OFA's database a goldmine...I just wish they did not ask permission to release less than good results
PHMorgan: That I had to discover on my own
Liz77: been there done that Christy.....
PHMorgan: NOT a good job on that one..... LOL
Rueger: is your e-mail the poltergeist one?
RottnYote: then again, if you fail to see a dog in the database, thats usually a good indication....
berta: yes
PHMorgan: It depends. Some breeders won't use it, but I do ask and follow-up on their respnose. Some feel it's not useful, like Berta was saying earlier
Liz77: I think - having been there - most owners of studs do not expect every inquiry to = a breeding
berta: means playful spirit or playful ghost
PHMorgan: I have quite a few breeder friends who are vets and many of them just x-ray their own dogs
Rueger: right I just wanted to make sure I sent the forms to the right person LOL
PHChristy: Hi there thelizzy! Welcome to Dog Breeding Chat! Our topic tonight is "Researching Bloodlines."
ode2adream: any puppies yet?
thelizzy: Hi everyone!
PHChristy: Hey Sams! Welcome to Dog Breeding Chat! Our topic tonight is "Researching Bloodlines."
PHMorgan: I have to agree with that, Liz.... FOr me it's just a nice compliment until someone says, "My bitch is coming in season soon - I wan tto do a breeding"
RottnYote: brb
SamsSammy: Hi everybody.
berta: If can SO be faked....... I know of several dogs who are dysplastic that now have OFA
thelizzy: heeeeey rottnpagn! it's bellasmommy from lj
Liz77: IBerta I would like to know how you know that?
RottnYote: back :)
Liz77: faking/conning OFA?
ode2adream: wb Yote:)
RottnYote: tyvm
RottnYote: yes, share the secret...lol
berta: because an xray of one dog was sent to a friend's vet because he intended to use the dog and his vet informed him it was okay if he just wanted pets......... but the dog was dyplastic
Liz77: BUT the OFA stuff?
berta: Not knowing that several years later I inquired about the dog and was sent his OFA cert fortuantely I decided I didn't like the dog so much
PHMorgan: HOw is it this chat is sucking so badly???
Liz77: ~~~~~spayed the prettiest bitch I ever bred because one hip, injured when young, did not pass.....
PHMorgan: We need a plan to get away from OFA, rumors and LIz....
Rueger: ok sending you a bunch of forms even an e-book of doggie recipes LOL
PHChristy: well, I can't talk to Liz, no matter what I say she complains to Ginger I'm being mean to her
Liz77: omg - Yorkies in the ring - leashes up!!
PHChristy: Hi there SmDog! Welcome to Dog Breeding Chat! Our topic tonight is "Researching Bloodlines."
Rueger: hey SmDog
berta: In another case a friend was running another persons dog on her sled team and assisted her in getting all her dogs to the vet for their OFA's andone particular dog fluked big time. She had been running the dog on her team and the vet advised her not to .
PHSmDog: Hey everyone
PHChristy: I think that not breeding an animal due to an aquired defect is overkill
PHChristy: they can't pass on an injury to their offspring
PHMorgan: Yeah, if the other hip was OK, I woudl probably breed her
PHMorgan: Yeah, if the other hip was OK, I would probably breed her
PHSmDog: Awww funny that should come up... I just suggested to someone on our Breeding board to research the background of her dog that doesn't seem to be growing
PHChristy: berta, working sled dogs flunked OFA? does make you think LOL
berta: She called me for my opinion .. which was IF that dog got injured while she had him she would be blamed for his "problem" and that dog has been used. She worked for a vet and I'm sure ID wasn't checked on the dog
PHSmDog: As we all know, its that problem six generations back that can come back to haunt you
PHMorgan: How else can we research bloodlines?
PHChristy: SmDog, you mean failure to thrive or small stature or dwarfism?
Rueger: but ome injuries make breeding to risky on the bitch just from a health standpoint
Liz77: Christy, I struggled with that decision - and Morgan, thank you for you input
PHMorgan: How about performance? How many of us want to see performance?
PHChristy: Rueger, absolutely true
PHMorgan: (&$@(&$#*($&)
PHSmDog: Well, Im thinking because its a miniture poodle that there's something in the background
RottnYote: rueger, in certain cases i agree...I chose not breed my last bitch because of her blown cruciate...too much stress on the leg carrying a large litter
PHMorgan: I like to see performance records, but it's also important ot me to hear about how difficult the dog was to train, how he did other than in competition
PHChristy: Morgan, great point.... I can usually find out how they do on the lure field, but it's much harder to find deerhounds who have been tested in the open field (live game)
Rueger: Morgan if dog cannot perform well in which the breed was intended it should not be bred IOW if a deerhound cannot hound not a good breeding prospect
PHChristy: so mostly we have to settle for lure coursing performance
PHMorgan: I breed for some field competition, but most of my "performance pups" go to personal hunting homes, so they can't be difficult to train OR live with
berta: She tried to run him one more year because she was desperate for a third dog and she had to let him go because he couldn't keep up
PHChristy: Hi Animallover21
Animallover21: hello!
PHChristy: Welcome to Dog Breeding Chat! Our topic tonight is "Researching Bloodlines."
Rouen: hi animal
Liz77: Take care all - time to take injuried dear Bethie out.....
PHSmDog: So, because I'm late here... LOL how far back in a pedigree do you guys all research?
Rueger: hi animal
Animallover21: thanx, Christy
RottnYote: bye liz
Animallover21: hi
Animallover21: bye
PHChristy: SmDog as far as I can go
berta: Thunder rolling in again I may not be here much longer
PHChristy: ok berta!
PHMorgan: I want to see photos and meet dogs for at least 3 generations, and further if available
PHMorgan: MUCH Further
Rueger: SmDog as far as possible
PHSmDog: Christy... I go back a minimum of 10 generations...
RottnYote: sm, I can trace my 2 guys back to 4 foundation dogs from the first recorded registry from 1907
PHChristy: SmDog, well, absolutely
Rueger: I have gone as far 21 generations
ode2adream: wow
PHSmDog: By the time you get that far back you're looking at the origins of the breed. LOL
PHChristy: but I'm a bit confused, what info exactly do you want in those ten generations of dogs?
PHMorgan: AFter 3-4 generations it gets harder to meet dogs, you have to then talk to other breeders/owners to get the information
RottnYote: Sm, ahhhhh I wish...thats just when they first started keeping track! lol
PHChristy: I mean, that's 350-400 dogs
Animallover21: wow, it is CROWDED in here!!
RottnYote: the forerunner to what is now the ADRK
PHSmDog: Christy...I want to know about such things as shunts, legge perthes, heart/thyroid/eye problems. I want to know if there were any temperament problems down the line
Rueger: right morgan and I am a bit luckier than most as we have a historian on staff for our parent club to get pics and other info on dogs
PHSmDog: Not hard when dealing with old time breeders who know their lines at least that far back
PHChristy: SmDog, and you can get that information for 400 dogs?
PHSmDog: Christy...realistically not ALL of them but probably 80% or better
RottnYote: hearsay...lol
PHMorgan: I can get at least photos on about 75% of certain of my pedigrees 10 generations back, and some anecdotal information on about 50% of those
Valkyrie: g'night
PHSmDog: Rottn...well, some of these breeders I know well, and they have kept records...so...
PHMorgan: Night, Val
RottnYote: no, I just meant in general...lol
PHChristy: to me it's a question of how much good info you can get, I can get SOME info back to the dawn of time on deerhounds
Rueger: I am getting lots of info in 4-5 generations then after that it is pics and maybe some rememberances of old timers for 1-3 more generations
PHSmDog: Rottn, I now...
PHChristy: what you get beyond a certain point is fairly unreliable
PHMorgan: Keep in mind Christy, that toy breeders often breed more often than those of us with LARGER litters - simply because they don't get so many get
berta: We are very fortuante in that in the 70's Judith Goodrich compiled a book on Samoyed pedigrees any dog that was registered that a photo was available was included to start. Following with any dog that acquired a title
PHChristy: Morgan, true
PHChristy: berta, we have many volumes of deerhound pedigree books
RottnYote: berta, same with our breed...a few key people researched for years and compiled such extensive records, unvaluable to the history
PHMorgan: And we do have a few historians in OUR breed who have put together material on dogs of importance - and of important lines
PHChristy: but it lacks health information, it's just a pedigree, photo and whatever info the breeder or owner wanted to include
RottnYote: *invaluable
berta: They do updates every couple of years but other than the first couple I haven't been able to afford to keep up.............I do have my SCA bulletins though
PHMorgan: I have photos of every dog in Duncan's pedigree for 6 generations
RottnYote: i should give up trying to type
PHSmDog: Christy..with yorkies the breed is only slightly over 100 years old...so... I'm sure it becomes a bit easier. Example...My mentor can tell you about any dog that's been on her place, because of the records she's kept over the years... and still has
PHChristy: very unreliable for health things, plus most of the health issues they didn't understand back then
Animallover21: back
PHChristy: SmDog, yes, that must make a big difference
Rueger: right christy that is the problem I get once beyond 8-9 generations
PHMorgan: Absolutely, Christy
PHSmDog: Christy that's true... I'm dealing with people who have been in the breed long enough to HAVE 10 generations
PHChristy: I don't discourage anyone from trying to get that information, I'm just saying... it might not necessarily exist
Rueger: or you get well he appeared normal his whole life no signs f problems of course we did not test for such and such back then
PHMorgan: Good point
PHChristy: LOL SmDog, well, going back ten generations in my breed can bet you awfully close to the total age of your breed
berta: Considering that only 30 some dogs were brought out of Russia ...............
PHMorgan: I think if you can get 3-4 generations of information, yuo are doing well, and you can always hope for more
Animallover21: i am not a dog breeder, although i would like to breed my next dog(PROBABLY A GOLDEN)
PHChristy: not so much now but when I first started out 23 years ago
PHSmDog: Christy there are some gaps. And there are some lines where the dog magically changed in a two year period... but by and large the sources I've dealth with have been good
Animallover21: sorry, i was on caps lock
PHChristy: LOL SmDog
PHSmDog: Animal... I would suggest you find a really good mentor in the breed
PHChristy: there's that "magic" thing again!
Animallover21: ok, thanx
RottnYote: I was looking at a friend's basenji's ped...after 4 generations it all goes to "Unknown African Male" or female
PHChristy: Yes, so many genetic problems in Goldens, it's so sad! A great breed on the brink of destruction
PHMorgan: Oh - ehy - now that we have a nice big pile of you all here, we need topic suggestions....
PHSmDog: Christy...I Know of one dog that was horrible...had really course head, just AWFUL... 2 years later he was smaller and beautiful...you tell me..LOL
PHMorgan: LOL, Rottn
RottnYote: animal, i know a LOVELY golden breeder
berta: Yeh, look what they've done to the Labs
PHSmDog: I've seen them change color in a weekend too. ;-)
RottnYote: beechwood goldens around cape cod
RottnYote: good breeders, better dogs
PHMorgan: Rpttm = O
Animallover21: you do?
PHChristy: You know, something else I do to research bloodlines is to run COIs on all breedings, and calculate the percentage of genetic influence of a given dog in the pedigree
PHMorgan: Rottm - I've heard of them - very good reputatin
RottnYote: nice nice people
PHChristy: my friend Terri does this all for me, she has an amazing deerhound pedigree program she's been working on for years
berta: I don't have the program but a friend in the breed ran my dogs for me.
Animallover21: thanx:E
RottnYote: Christy, my ped program has it too...very handy
PHMorgan: I have a friend who does it for me, too. I can run the program, but SHE can interpret it.... LOL
PHSmDog: Christy... I can do that in my pedigree program, but
PHChristy: it can sometimes be quite astonishing to find out how much influence a dog fairly far back in the pedigree has on a given breeding
PHMorgan: It can
PHChristy: and how little some other dog has
Rueger: hmm how abour record keeping for a topic what do you or should you keep
PHChristy: I don't even claim to understand it
PHChristy: Hi Clicker! Welcome back
Animallover21: long time, no see, clicker
ode2adream: I like that idea
Animallover21: hey, Clicker!!
Clicker59: THanks
PHMorgan: There is one dog who shows up rather high on the COI considering he is 5-6 generations back, and his tail keeps SHOWING UP..... LOL
PHSmDog: Christy... I don't usually use mine that much
Clicker59: Hi animal
RottnYote: hahahahaha morgan
Animallover21: hi
PHChristy: I'd like to ask people if there would be interest in a topic that is slightly off topic but I believe, important.... Tick borne diseases. Is that too off topic for you all? Be honest.
PHChristy: Hiya Mow!
RottnYote: hiya mowgli!
ode2adream: Mow!
Clicker59: yes Christie
PHMowgli: Hidy Ho Neighbors
Clicker59: & Fleas too
PHMorgan: I would say it's NOT too far off topic if you have some good information on how it affects breeding animals
Rouen: hi mow
berta: Tally just broke a marrow bone in two and I had to retreive the pieces
SamsSammy: Hi Mow.
RottnYote: christy not so relevant to me, but still very interesting to learn about!!
PHMorgan: We could combine it with discussions on repellents and their affects on breeding animals
PHMowgli: hey sams
PHChristy: there are considerations for breeding animals.... but it would be a side issue. Maybe I'll skip it as a dog breeding topic....
berta: I thnk it's an excellent topic and appropriate to a breeding chat
PHMorgan: Any other topic suggestions, folks?
PHMowgli: hmm how about parasites and their prevention
PHChristy: we can do it in Health Chat perhaps
RottnYote: brb all
PHMorgan: Indian giver, Christy..... LOL
PHChristy: any other suggestions on topics?
PHChristy: LOL Morgan
berta: yeh what Mow said
Rueger: Well I suggested record keeping
berta: opps Morgan said
PHChristy: let me research and see if there are more breeding issues than I'm thinking of right now
PHChristy: OK, Record Keeping... what else?
PHMorgan: OK - so we have parasites (which I think is VERY relevant) and record keeping
Clicker59: Food Christie I am also in to Clicker Training & Agility LOL
Rueger: christy lots of risks in breeding to dogs with parasites
PHSmDog: Christy...how about testing for genetic problems
Clicker59: Cook I mean LOL
PHMorgan: How about transportation of pups and dams?
berta: MY dogs don't have parasites !!
Rueger: oh good one MOrgan
PHSmDog: Berta mine either
PHMorgan: And you can come tell us how yolu prevent them, Berta
PHMorgan: LOL
Rueger: mine either berta
PHMorgan: MINe don't either
PHMorgan: And there are specific reasons why not
berta: simple I feed raw
PHChristy: OK, that sounds good... we did genetic testing fairly recently so I think we'll wait al ittle more time for that one
PHSmDog: Or how about the Joys of owning a Stud Dog. LOL
Clicker59: [img id=em-5]
PHMorgan: LOL
PHMowgli: mine either
PHChristy: LOL SmDog
PHMorgan: That's also one we've covered recently
PHMorgan: How about the importance of titles to breeders?
berta: How about............. saving sperm
Clicker59: [img id=em-5]
PHMorgan: Ooh - good one, Berat
PHMowgli: didn't we do that one recently morgan
PHMorgan: berta*
PHSmDog: Morgan I love mine... I demand the dogs ALL call me MS. LOL
berta: what is that freeze dried???
Animallover21: hi, Mow, sorry, i never said hi
PHMowgli: AI and frozen semen good
berta: no that's not it.......... cyrogentics?
Clicker59: SmDog LOL
PHMowgli: hi animal and Loo
berta: OH that's it frozen and cooled extended
PHSmDog: How about to Clone or not to Clone
Rueger: ok time for me to run
Clicker59: SmDog Good
Animallover21: gotto go
Animallover21: bbl
PHMorgan: OK - am off to do report and pick up daughter from work - I will leave to Christy to pick one of these lovel topics and save the rest for later!
berta: oooo ick............. okay storms here bye
PHMorgan: :-)
PHChristy: night Morgan!
Rueger: the forms ar sent to you
PHChristy: night Berta!
PHChristy: OK folks, well that sounds like we have a few topics on hand for the future
Clicker59: LOL
PHMorgan: Very sorry about your kitty, BTW
Clicker59: OK Christie
PHChristy: and me about your beagle!
PHChristy: I want to thank everyone for coming to Dog Breeding Chat this week....
Clicker59: Christie YW
PHMorgan: THanks. I'm hoping we can eek her through the weekend but not likely
PHChristy: and we are just about ready to turn things over to SmDog and Mowgli for Showdog Chat... I'll see you all next week!!!
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