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PHMorgan: Welcome to Breeder Chat! Topic tonight: Mixing in for Vigor

PHMorgan: MOW!

PHMorgan: Who has heard of breeding OTHEr breeds into stock to increase vigor - either health, performnace or for other reasons?

bert_nr: I went and looked but know nothing about those dogs

Tiger Chick_nr: cute my mom want a bulldog

Lesya: i have

PHMorgan: For example, I know personally a few GSP breeders who have (unofficially) admitted to breeding to Pointers to increase run for field trials.

PHMorgan: GSPs are not as far-running a dog (normally) as (English) Pointers.......

PHMowgli: Morgan as far as tonights topic is going I know in European countries they are allowing breeds that were at one time used in the production of a breed to be re-introduced into the breeds again

bert_nr: I know it's been done with Basenji and Pointers

PHMorgan: MOre details, Berty

PHMorgan: BERt - sorry got my nails done for a wedding this weekend and now I'm handicapped

Lesya: some people accused a couple AB breeders several years ago of infusing APBT into the lines

bert_nr: LOL good one

PHMorgan: I cannot type, button myh shirt or open my own soda

Lesya: but that doesn't make as much sense since the AB is what was used to make an APBT

Lesya: haha

Lesya: i know how that goes

PHMowgli: ha ha Morgan what would make you get nails?

Lesya: i trimmed my nails recently

PHMowgli: you are a dog person LOL

Lesya: but one of my nails is still longer and it gets in the way of typing

avalonborzoi_nr: what could they cross a Basenji with that is even remotely similar?

bert_nr: It wasn't that many years ago that they allowed several native Basenji to be added into the bloodlines but they had to wait several generations to be admitted to the studbooks

avalonborzoi_nr: I remember AKC allowing the native Basenji to be added

avalonborzoi_nr: due to health problems

avalonborzoi_nr: in the breed

bert_nr: They reintroduced the brindles which had never been seen in this country

PHMorgan: Hey - it was my best friends wedding and we're both groomers. NEITHER of us had any nails nor could we get the dirt completely out... So I treatedf her and we both got ours done.... LOL

PHMorgan: NOw we are both wondering how the heck to get them OFF

Lesya: hahahahaha

PHMowgli: ha ha

Lesya: two ways

bert_nr: These were unpedigreed dogs brought out of Africa............ hmm think there was a movie by that name

Lesya: a needle and you scrape them away

Lesya: or soak your fingers in acetone

Lesya: and it gets gooey

PHMowgli: or soak in nail polish remover LOL

Lesya: and you scrape it off w/something

Lesya: or go to a salon and have them soak your fingers in acetone for you

Lesya: lol

Lesya: i havent had acrylic naiils in many moons

avalonborzoi_nr: somewhat different than actually breeding them to a different breed but I'm glad AKC had enough foresight to let them do it

Lesya: :p

Tiger Chick_nr: brb

PHMowgli: the problem as I see it though is we no longer have purebred dogs

Lesya: what?

PHMowgli: once you cross in a breed even if it was a breed that was used to create the breed they are not purebred now

Lesya: hey morgan, any insight on my question?

PHMowgli: the wild basenji's in Africa may or may not be purebred too although in that instance I am Ok with it

bert_nr: Morgan you have Pointers right? Do you remember when they allowed the Pointers to use a couple Dalmations to correct something genetic?

PHMorgan: No - it was Pointers used to correct deafness in Dalmatians.

PHMorgan: I beleve it was fairly successful, but I also believe the Dal folks gave it up as not worth it

PHMorgan: I have no real details

avalonborzoi_nr: didn't AKC whimp out and refuse to register those dogs

bert_nr: Okay ......... I was backwards on that one but had the breeds right

avalonborzoi_nr: even after several gens of test breedings

Tiger Chick_nr: k i am back

Lesya: wb

PHMorgan: You did, Bert

avalonborzoi_nr: which was a shame if it would have helped eliminate the deafness problem

PHMorgan: Pointers were chosen because there are so few genetic problems in the breed and the coloring and structure wasn't far off

bert_nr: Again it was several generations later that they evaluated what was produced and I believe some were introduced into the breed

PHMowgli: ah but in the elimination are they adding in other problems to the breeds that was not there before?

PHMowgli: as you notice I am playing devils advocate LOL

Lesya: hehe

PHMorgan: Yeah, beware of the WAND

PHMorgan: Hehe

avalonborzoi_nr: I think the real problem with Dals is because their color standard encourages the lack of pigment inside the ear that causes deafness

PHMorgan: And I think I've addressed that

PHMowgli: actually avalon the lack of pigment is a symptom of the deafness not hte other way around

bert_nr: Breeders have created the same problem in BC's and a couple other breeds now by breeding to the white factors

Tiger Chick_nr: hey

PHMorgan: Welcome to Breeder Chat! Topic tonight: Mixing in for Vigor

PHChristy: Hello everyone!

PHMowgli: hey bert that is not true

PHMowgli: white factors do not I repeat do not cause deafness nor is there anything that can prvoe it does

bert_nr: I know of several litters where it has occurred.

PHMowgli: breeding merle to merle can and will create deaf and or blind puppies but not white factored

avalonborzoi_nr: my understanding is that the hair cells inside the ear or whatever you call them do not function properly in the complete absence of melanin

Lesya: brb

bert_nr: Okay I'll say it this way.....

PHMorgan: Lesya - *I'm a rotten judge of American BUlldogs

bert_nr: Dogs that carry extreme white marking when bred together have been known to produce a high percentage of deaf offspring

avalonborzoi_nr: It's the pigment inside the ear that matters

PHMowgli: bert that is most often because they carry the merle gene not because of the white factor though

avalonborzoi_nr: there are a lot of white Borzoi but not that many deaf ones

PHMorgan: OK - so that particular discussion is a bit off our topic - let's get back - any other examples of using other breeds to correct genetic issues?

bert_nr: In one BC litter I know of ALL pups were deaf and both parents hearing.

bert_nr: okay

PHMowgli: Yes bert and I can say I bred a merle to a merle and none of the pups were deaf or blind and both parents were of hearing

bert_nr: I only know of those two instances

PHChristy: I think BCs are a great example for this chat.... until their recent shall we say hijacking by the AKC... .... they had no conformation standard at all, and you could register a dog as a border collie based only on performance, you didn't need to show they were "purebred"

PHChristy: if the dog could do the work, they were a border collie.

PHChristy: and yet even so, this is one of the most recognizable breeds in the world. Even without a conformation standard, they actually produced a recognizable breed type

bert_nr: Mow I'm not talking about merling I'm talking about highly white colored dogs....... not Shelties I know of no deaf Shelties

PHMowgli: exactly christy and many BC's today are improperly registered as far as thier coloring goes too so they are merles who are registered as tri and black and tan

PHChristy: I find that fascinating.

PHChristy: LOL, I'm not touching the color thing with a ten foot pole.

PHChristy: we don't have colors in deerhounds and I can't TELL you how glad I am.

PHChristy: "Breed the grey ones to the grey ones and get grey ones." That is color genetics in Scottish Deerhounds.

PHMorgan: Foxhounds are nearly as recognizable, Christy

PHChristy: Morgan, yes, that's a good example.

bert_nr: How can a Blk/White be a merle?

PHChristy: I agree

PHMowgli: bert yes but many of those highly white BC's are what is known to the herding world as cryptic merles

PHMorgan: Altho not as "freeform" a breed standard

avalonborzoi_nr: http:.//www.lsu.edu/deafness/genetics.htm

bert_nr: Merles are not common in BC

PHMowgli: they are merles genetically even though they appear to be blk and white

avalonborzoi_nr: people might want to bookmark that for later reading

PHChristy: in reality virtually no dogs have ever been able to be registered "on merit" as border collies, and I believe those that are, were of mixed border collie parentage

avalonborzoi_nr: I wish the DH's still had other colors

Lesya: k

PHChristy: but in theory, if a Rottie could do the work, a Rottie could be registered as a Border Collie (to quote Donald McCaig)

GAChesters: Good evening All

PHChristy: Hey ther GAC!

avalonborzoi_nr: because those would have probably had more genetic diversity

PHMowgli: merles are very common in BC's however they are mostly cryptics not fully colored merles as we see in the other herding breeds

PHChristy: avalon, so do we all.... and we've talked about how we could get them back. We'd have to breed out to another breed to get them

PHMorgan: Christy -You know Donald?

avalonborzoi_nr: yeah I have thought about that

PHChristy: we can't have a lot of white so we couldn't go to the greyhounds

PHChristy: Morgan, not personally, no!

GAChesters: What's the topic?

avalonborzoi_nr: wondered about how a cross to a few either big big dark GH's that you KNEW were double for self

PHMorgan: I do - he's a pretty neat guy

PHChristy: I am quoting his book "Eminent Dogs, Dangerous Men"

PHMorgan: Welcome to Breeder Chat! Topic tonight: Mixing in for Vigor

avalonborzoi_nr: or the same in Borzoi

avalonborzoi_nr: doubles for self markings

GAChesters: ah opening up the stud books?

PHMorgan: All my books of his writing are personaly autographed (OK, I'm a sap and I collect autographed books)

PHChristy: avalon, could work.... wolfhounds could work also, but you'd be bringing in non-sighthound ancestry

PHChristy: GAC, yes

PHChristy: Moran, I just LOVE him

PHChristy: Morgan

avalonborzoi_nr: I would not use wolfhounds

PHChristy: No, me neither

avalonborzoi_nr: they aren't exactly a health improvement

avalonborzoi_nr: nor are they sighhoundy

PHMorgan: He's a crusty guy but his dogs are lovely and he's brilliant - he's on one of my training lists and I've met him

PHChristy: now, it would be interesting to use whippets, that's one tough little breed

PHMowgli: borzois were bred into collies in the 1800's

PHChristy: NGA greys

GAChesters: Ok well right now in Europe they are allowing the mini bull terrier ppl to breed to standard sized bull terriers to try and hellp thier PPL problems

avalonborzoi_nr: not to improve Borzoi

avalonborzoi_nr: but to lengthen Collie heads

PHMowgli: no avalon to bring up the size of collies LOL

PHMorgan: OK - so let's fantasize - if you could, without irritating AKC, introduce another breed into yours, would you? And why? What would you hope to gain?

bert_nr: Most of the "breeds" come from countrys where the native gene pool is known. Unlike Basenji or for that matter Samoyed

avalonborzoi_nr: they certainlyu changed their heads and that was part of making them recognizable as not a BC

Lesya: hehe, I'm glad my topic is keeping things hopping. :p

GAChesters: and there was an interesting opening of the stud books in Australia (I think) with German Pinshcers where they opened the stud book and allowed them to bring in some Giant Schanuzers which was part of their foundation also

GAChesters: they bred true in 3 generations.

avalonborzoi_nr: Borzoi have pretty good genetic diversity

PHMowgli: I would bring in paps they would give us less shyness in the breed and bring our size back to the original standard when the breed was first allowed as well as keeping very much so the appearance as far as the genetic defects we woulod bring in nothing new as shelties already seem to be predisposed to everything

Lesya: I wonder. What if you were to take the original dogs that produced a breed of today

bert_nr: I missed that one Chesters

Lesya: and try to reporoduce it

avalonborzoi_nr: but if anything were brought in it I would think only Greyhound

GAChesters: Got a link somewhere bert lemme see if I can find it. They did photo documentation of all the litters

PHChristy: but considering they couldn't even get those backcrossed Dals registered, when the breeding out was done with the parent club approval and AKC approval

bert_nr: Similar to what they did with the Basenji huh?

PHChristy: I can't imagine AKC and SDCA approving it just for colors, LOL, when the Dal cross was done to remove a serious health defect!

avalonborzoi_nr: I wouldn't say doing if for colors

GAChesters: dang.can't find it and she is not online for me to ask

avalonborzoi_nr: it could expand the gene pool and most likely at least lessen the incidence of bloat etc

GAChesters: It was interesting tho the half breeds....they took pics of all of em

bert_nr: That's okay I just wasn't aware of it

PHMorgan: I'm not sure I woudl "mess" with Pointers. They are exremely healthy and it's still possible (without much trying ) to find a good tmepered working animal

avalonborzoi_nr: although you'll never get rid of bloat, CM and bone cancer in giant breeds

PHChristy: in the UK..... you can register I believe the fifth generation after an outcross?

GAChesters: Frankly right now I can't think of a breed I would want to bring into the MT that doesn't have more health problems than we already have

PHMowgli: yes christy that is right

PHChristy: there are greyhounds behind some British deerhounds because of that. Not sure if it's true to this day

PHMorgan: And the breed is fairly old - not sure any of the positively indentified precursors are still around - is there still a Spanish Pointer?

PHChristy: avalon, we are getting rid of bone cancer in deerhounds! Have you heard about that?

avalonborzoi_nr: has the gene been identitifed?

PHChristy: they found the genetic marker at North Carolina State University, and the AKC and SDCA are funding the study to develop a blood test

PHChristy: yes, they found it

avalonborzoi_nr: well that is fabulous

PHChristy: within two years, bone cancer in Scottish Deerhounds will be no more

PHMowgli: in shelties we are down now to only 8% affected with CEA finally so pretty soon we will have all good eyes yeah!!!!!!!!

PHChristy: and I believe the Greyhound Club of America is starting the same project

avalonborzoi_nr: how can you eliminate it

PHChristy: it took us 7 years

avalonborzoi_nr: you are only identifying the gene

avalonborzoi_nr: there isn't a "cure" too is there?

PHChristy: it will be a simple blood test, so by not breeding carriers we'll never produce another dog who can get it

PHChristy: it's a simple autosomal recessive in our breed

avalonborzoi_nr: well that is great news!

PHMowgli: avalon once you identify the gene if those dogs who have the gene are not used for breeding you can eliminate the problem

avalonborzoi_nr: in DH's you cannot eliminate 25% of the breeding population

avalonborzoi_nr: and if it is a simple autosomal recessive

GAChesters: The U of Penn is now working on trying to find the marker for legges-calves-perthes now also

GAChesters: YAY

avalonborzoi_nr: then the percentage would be around that at least

PHChristy: avalon, we don't need to eliminate them, just not breed carrier to carrier

GAChesters: that would be a godsend

avalonborzoi_nr: I understand that Christy

bert_nr: In Samoyed we have the PRA Optigen test now and by clearing certain dogs in your line you can clear your entire line

PHChristy: we can breed carriers still, as long as we breed them to clears

avalonborzoi_nr: but Mowgli said once you identify the gene then those dogs that have it are not used for breeding

avalonborzoi_nr: that would not be an option in DH's

GAChesters: Right same for vWd in my breed. We now have DNA test so we can breed smart

avalonborzoi_nr: I do understand no carrier to carrier in simple autosomal recessives that is a simple fix

PHMowgli: avalon the affected would need to be eliminated an carriers bred to non-cariers

avalonborzoi_nr: I understand that but that wasn't what you said

PHChristy: avalon, correct. In deerhounds we cannot lose 25 percent of the breeding population, but as long as we don't produce affecteds, I think we'll all settle.

PHChristy: avalon... what I said or what Mowgli said? I'm confoozled. PHChristy:

PHChristy: hello Mara! Welcome to Dog Breeding Chat!

avalonborzoi_nr: what Mowgli said

PHChristy: ok

Mara_nr: hi

bert_nr: It't very involved

Mara_nr: THe email said tonight was BBE night

Mara_nr: so, I'm here

PHChristy: Mara... that starts in half an hour

avalonborzoi_nr: I just hope that all the DH people really understand that and don't panic and eliminate carriers you know?

PHMorgan: <--is confoozled by genetic discussions in general

PHChristy: at Showdog Chat :)

PHMorgan: Mara - stay - we're always happy to have new faces!

PHMorgan: Welcome to Breeder Chat! Topic tonight: Mixing in for Vigor

bert_nr: Now we

PHMowgli: christy I think she is confused when I said you can eliminate the ones with the problem I did not specify first time how though LOL

Mara_nr: oh, I'm in the wrong place?

PHChristy: avalon, oh, they won't.... number one, I think the breeders do understand....

bert_nr: re oops lost part of my sentence

PHChristy: Mara, not at all! Just hang out for half an hour and Showdog chat will start then. :)

Mara_nr: oh, ok

Mara_nr: I've only been here one other time

bert_nr: We're discussing genetics and breeding etc etc

GAChesters: Vet Gen just recently developed the DNA test for vWd in German Pinschers, but the co-op is violently against testing for it.....now why do you think that is??

avalonborzoi_nr: I'm not conffused you said originally"once you identify the gene if those dogs who have the gene are not used for breeding you can eliminate the problem"

PHChristy: but I haven't noticed deerhound breeders being too quick to ELIMINATE dogs from their breeding programs... to the contrary. IMO they keep them in long past common sense would dictate otherwise!

bert_nr: Too many breeders dogs affectd and they don't want everyone to know??

avalonborzoi_nr: which woudl not work in deerhounds as carriers woudl have the gene but could still have healthy pups bred to non carriers

GAChesters: Probably Bert

avalonborzoi_nr: well that is true to

PHChristy: in a breed like deerhounds, with such low numbers.... there is no way we can eliminate all carriers

PHChristy: it would destroy our breed

GAChesters: They would also have to spend actual money for the tests

avalonborzoi_nr: about them not removing dogs from their breedings

Mara_nr: it's much harded in something that is a recessive where it takes both parents

Mara_nr: more difficutl to elimiate them

GAChesters: Carriers for what Christy?

bert_nr: Fortunately for the Samoyeds and PRA we onlyhad 7 affected lines to start with and most of them now are in the puppymills

PHChristy: Mara, why is that harder? It seems to me that makes it more clearcut

Mara_nr: dominates are easier to deal with

avalonborzoi_nr: well that is exactly what Christy has described as being the bone cancer source in DH's

PHMorgan: Welcome to Breeder Chat! Topic tonight: Mixing in for Vigor

PHChristy: GAC, we're discussing osteosarcoma, which has been found in Scottish Deerhounds to be caused by a simple autosomal recessive gene

Mara_nr: no because unless you have an actual test all the dogs are suspect

PHChristy: well, osteo is not "caused" by the gene.... but the dogs who get osteo are dogs with this gene

GAChesters: I don't have any problems working with a known carrier as long as it is something I can test for and breed to clear...in anything

Mara_nr: and with recessives they don't demonstrate the trait

PHMorgan: OK - so let's talk about folks who are breeding other breeds into their bloodlines COVERTLY

PHMorgan: How much do you think the DNA testing AKC is beginning is going to eliminate this?

PHChristy: Mara, oh I understand.... I see what you mean. Yes, without a test it's much harder.

GAChesters: Morgan those are back yard breeders....LOL

Mara_nr: now that is a problem

avalonborzoi_nr: but with the gene identified it does keep carrier from carrier although it will be interesting to see how much this affects the breeding and limits the gene pool

bert_nr: Yow........ who's doing that""

PHMowgli: actually recessives such as CEA and bone cancer I think are easier in some cases cause if dominance was how all problems were we would lose too much of our genetic stock to correct the problems

PHMorgan: I suspect it's going to be MUCH harder

PHChristy: MOrgan, depends on how strict AKC is

PHChristy: I am quite sure that lots of breeds do it fairly regularly

Mara_nr: and some of the supposedly identified genes don't always workt they way they say

GAChesters: That would only work if each puppy registered has to supply a DNA sample

bert_nr: DNA testingwill bite them in the butt at some point'

Mara_nr: like the copper toxicosis test in bedlingtons

PHChristy: I think greyhound is mixing its way into some of the other sighthound breeds, to improve speed and outline

PHMowgli: yes chesters I agree

Mara_nr: they say a 1:1 won't be affected but a 2:1 or whatever might

PHChristy: and even non-sighthounds, to improve speed

MiniSch_nr: GAChesters - I agree with you. If I can test for it, I have no problem breeding to a carrier if that carrier has traits I want - easy to cull when you can test for the gene.

avalonborzoi_nr: It would seem that since that gene has been identified that it may be easier to identify it in other breeds where it is a problem

Mara_nr: goes on and on and has not really proved as valid as was thought

PHChristy: folks, my mom has just called and asked me to walk her dogs, she has a migraine... I'm going to need to run out the door. Great chat, I'll see you all later!

GAChesters: Right MiniSch and if it's a otherwise nice dog you just place the carriers in pet homes and work with the clears

PHMowgli: we still do not have dna test for pra in collies and shelties yet so many other breeds do

GAChesters: You gotta ask for them to work on one Mow

GAChesters: and they gotta see potential profit in doing so

PHMowgli: we have our health foundations funding it chesters

GAChesters: kewl

PHMowgli: it is slow going though

GAChesters: It's like the whole Gene Search VS Vet Gen war over vWd testing

Mara_nr: we've had difficulty getting research done in our breed because the potiential problem does not effect enough dogs

GAChesters: Gene Search lost the legal battle

PHMowgli: our VWD test has really helped

PHMorgan: It's hard to do those kinds of studies - what becomes of the Test Dogs produced?

Mara_nr: they get placed in loving homes to be followed by the university program, usually vet students

GAChesters: Now we are back to paying twice as much for the same test until the patent expires....at which point I sure hope Gene Search comes back

PHMowgli: what breed mara?

PHMorgan: That's good at lEAST< Mara

bert_nr: Actually the Sibe club did the majority of support for the PRA testting the clears the Sams

MiniSch_nr: We also do not have a test for the common PRA in miniature schnauzers - can test for the dominate PRA Type A (and I did), but not a single dog tested (even those blind with PRA) have tested positive for the gene

Mara_nr: which makes it all the more difficult

PHMorgan: Alrighty then... Not such a useful study then, huh? LOL

PHMorgan: Oh - hey Junior is home from the vet

PHMorgan: Back to his old naughty self

PHMowgli: oh how is he morgan?

Mara_nr: while it seems the same gene should be the culprit in all cases it just goes to show that isn't the case

PHMorgan: He will be going to his new home once he's been off his meds for a week with no fever

PHMowgli: no more problems with his littermates?

PHMorgan: His dad is coming down to visit him tomorrow

PHMorgan: Nah - this was a freak thing, Mow

PHMorgan: But no - he doesn't play with Duncan

PHMorgan: Who is the only one left

PHMowgli: oh good

PHMowgli: good he is not playing with him that is LOL

PHMorgan: They are each taking turns playing with various adults who are teaching them that NO, it is NOT ok to remove pieces of your doggy friends with your TEETH

PHMorgan: They are both much improved with that, but will NOT be allowed to test their education on each other

travlinpom_nr: Hey all

GAChesters: I have a dilemma and need some input from ya'll

PHMorgan: HIya, Trav

PHMowgli: junior and he obviously had some issues at one point LOL

MiniSch_nr: I have 10 week old miniature schnauzer pups that are learning that from the adults

PHMorgan: Welcome to Breeder Chat! Topic tonight: Mixing in for Vigor

PHMorgan: Go for it, GAC

PHMorgan: The whole litter was a bit overzealous in play with EACH OTHER - they are fine with people. I think, actually, they are just EXTRAORDINARILY pain tolerant

GAChesters: I have one 6 x 10 chain link kennel outside that is covered. It has pea gravel as a base, but even with the roof it's staying too wet in there. What can I use for flooring that I could move with me when I go that's gonna be reallly good

PHMorgan: The father is like that - ran on a broken hock for 2 weeks before his VET OWNER finally x-rayed it

GAChesters: outch Morgan

PHMowgli: oh geez morgan those stoic dogs can be a horror I have one too

MiniSch_nr: Ouch

PHMorgan: That pastic decking is pretty nice stuff - the 2x4 pices you can get from F&Smoth

PHMorgan: SMITH

PHMorgan: OMG - PLASTIC decking

PHMorgan: I quit

PHMowgli: and stall mats work wel too GAC

GAChesters: Dri-Dek? it's stuuuupid expensive isn't it? Does anybody use it and like it?

bert_nr: Chesters I used wooden pallets that I built to fit for years until I kept a friends GSD and she trashed the

PHMorgan: No - not that

PHMorgan: This is 2x4 pieces of plastic decking that looks liek wood

PHMorgan: It's also not cheap, but not bad, either

PHMorgan: The other option is to do what I hvae in my dogyard

PHMowgli: GAC maybe at home depot that new vinyl decking panels

GAChesters: I have seen the vinyl decking material you can use to build a deck for your house....also stupid expenisve

GAChesters: what?

PHMorgan: I ahve several pieces of plywood raised up on 4X4s

PHMowgli: or I used patio stones on mine

avalonborzoi_nr: see you guys later, enjoyed it

GAChesters: Mo doesn't that wood just suck up urine smell? and water?

PHMorgan: I just drilled a few holds in those to drain and it stays dry and comfortable for them to lie on

bert_nr: I replaced my pallets with patio blocks

PHMorgan: Welcome to Breeder Chat! Topic tonight: Mixing in for Vigor

PHMorgan: I don't have it ALL OVER

PHMowgli: chesters the vinyl decking not the wood one

PHMorgan: Just in like a fashion show runway kinda effect

PHMorgan: My small kennel is 1/2 plywood, 1/2 gravel

GAChesters: well my kids would pee all over the wood

bert_nr: Chesters if you make pallets the urine and feces fall through and dry up

GAChesters: and I'm skert it would reek of urine

PHMorgan: Keeps them from pottying near the gate and flinging it at me when I go to let them in

PHMowgli: chesters that is why I have patio blocks LOL

PHMorgan: They don't potty on the plywood, just in the gravel

GAChesters: Mine would Mo

PHMorgan: And I disinfect it

PHMorgan: Welcome to Breeder Chat! Topic tonight: Mixing in for Vigor

GAChesters: Does anybody have the vinyl stuff?

bert_nr: Nope

MiniSch_nr: Speaking of disinfecting - what do you use?

littleherper: hey can u help me with something on the message boards

PHMowgli: not me way to expensive for my dogs to eat LOL

mnmhdriders: no

PHMorgan: DO NOT use pressure treated plywood or 4x4s

PHMowgli: mini I use parvolan to clean all my stuff

GAChesters: hrumph....mine wouldn't eat it

PHMorgan: But it works great

MiniSch_nr: Where do you get panvolan

PHMorgan: ANd I haven't had a problem with odor - even the pups get the idea of using the gravel

PHMowgli: from petedge pet supply

PHMorgan: Foster & Smith sells it I think

PHMorgan: Either one... LOL

MiniSch_nr: Reason I am asking is I have 10 week old puppies with Giardia - don't want it to spread to the adults

GAChesters: Mow how is that better than water + bleach + soap?

PHMorgan: Plain old bleach kills giardia

PHMowgli: chesters it smells better and you don't have to rinse it LOL

GAChesters: I come from that school of it ain't kilt until you bleach it LOL

PHMorgan: Put the pups in a separate pen and take away their water - give only under supervision

PHMorgan: My gusy kept reinfecting themselves by playing in their water bucket

PHMorgan: And you have to run around after them and bleach everywhere they potty

PHMorgan: EVERYWHERE

PHMorgan: EVERYWHERE

GAChesters: Or get them a hamster bottle with the rolly thing to lick...that keeps them off the water also

mnmhdriders: yes

PHMorgan: I even used a diluted bleach solution on their feet when I brought them in

PHMorgan: Good idea GA

MiniSch_nr: Yes, I have one that likes to play in the water

PHMorgan: GReat idea, actually

PHMowgli: I am lucky I have never had giardia or any other problems like that actually

PHMorgan: He will be happy to infect all his siblings over and over... LOL

PHMorgan: I had it once, and then again, but not since

PHMorgan: that was 4 years ago

PHMorgan: Wow - 5 actually

GAChesters: Hamster bottles are now available in huge sizes too for bigger pups

PHMorgan: IUt's not hard to treat, just hard to get all cleared up

PHMowgli: yeah and it is hard to deal with when you have it

PHMorgan: YOu have to be ruthless

PHMorgan: LOL

PHMowgli: yeah GAC I actually saw them in my pet edge catalog that came today for puppies LOL

PHMorgan: BLEACH IT ALL. BLEACH !!!!!! LOL

GAChesters: It lives in the ground here....so does coccidia. We get it too frequently

GAChesters: See? I'm a bleach lovin fool.....LOL

PHMorgan: Me too

GAChesters: I bought the Lysol kitchen cleaner spray bottle for crates....smells better than clorox clean up

PHMorgan: I use other cleaners to cut down on odors, but bleach is what I use for disinfection

GAChesters: kills everything

PHMowgli: well I do bleach my outside runs weekly LOL

PHMorgan: It does smell better

PHMowgli: but parvolan inside

PHMorgan: But hte dogs are more comfortable with the bleach smell - mine really dislike teh lysol - will not enter a crate recently cleaned with it

GAChesters: MO I also hate scooping poops on gravel.

PHMorgan: I do too but man does it keep their feet nice

PHMowgli: chesters yes I hated that too you take gravel with you

PHMorgan: htey do NOT like concrete runs

GAChesters: Yea that's why I did that rather than concrete

PHMorgan: Also it's horrible on pointer elbows and hips

GAChesters: but the gravel is staying damp down here now....gotta be a haven for germies

MiniSch_nr: Mom was feeding pups - ya, I know at 10 weeks she should not have. According to vet was transfering the infection to the pups and lowered their immune system. We get giardia regularly in our water and it zapped them. 2 1/2 weeks now

PHMowgli: Morgan mine hate poured concreate but they seem to like the patio stones

PHMorgan: OK - we need atopic for next week

GAChesters: Also use bottled water for the pups MiniSch

PHMorgan: Mow - it's probably GREAT for the shelties, but uncoatedbreeds do not do well on concrete anything

PHMorgan: Suggestions???????

GAChesters: right Mo

PHMorgan: TOPIC???????

MiniSch_nr: Mom had mastitis - no did not have swollen hard breasts but had blood in her milk.

PHMorgan: TOOOOPIC!

PHMowgli: yes that is true and I do have tons of coat on my guys LOL

PHMorgan: Let's talk about Utopian Kennels

PHFlea: Good Evening Everyone!!

GAChesters: Well MiniSch I don't let them nurse until 10 weeks anyways

PHMorgan: Hiya Flead

GAChesters: Yea your dream kennel

PHMorgan: Flea, even

PHMowgli: Morgan how about testing for breeding?

GAChesters: Hey flea

PHMorgan: PIe in the sky kennels

PHMorgan: Keep that topic for next time, Mow - we need a "fun" topic for next week

PHMowgli: ok that works for me I love tlaking kennels LOL

PHMowgli: talking even LOL

PHMorgan: But DO NOT lose the topic, Mow - we always need it

PHMowgli: I will MOrgan LOL

MiniSch_nr: Chesters - Toxic seminar I went to last weekend said that lysol was TOXIC big time to dogs

PHMowgli: lose it that is

GAChesters: Yea heated floors...........

PHMorgan: Well, that explains why my guys despise it so!

PHMorgan: LOL

GAChesters: Kitchen with water and fridge

PHMorgan: 27 different folks to SCOOP and DISINFECT

PHMorgan: And someone ELSE to do toenails

PHFlea: I want a kennel with a cabana boy...or wait a kennel full of cabana boys

GAChesters: AMEN!1

GAChesters: That would be Sven

GAChesters: See Sven is my mytholgocial 6'4" swedish guy that will drive my 40 bus and care for the lil doggies

GAChesters: He cooks too

PHFlea: ROFLMAO!!

GAChesters: And he's gay so hubby doesn't get jealous

GAChesters: And I can send him into the ring under some of the "boys" judges

travlinpom_nr: Cabana boy named Raoul . . . . no that doesnt have to be his name, i'll just call him that anyway

PHFlea: Trav...works for me...I like Juan

PHMorgan: I like my current kennel help - I just wish he would also PUT HIS SOCKS IN THE DANG HAMPER!!!!!

GAChesters: HAHAHAAHAHAHA MO

MiniSch_nr: Chesters - ya, I shouldn't have let them nurse, but I thought they were being taught bite inhibition (which this litter needs). She would nose them into her breasts to nurse, but if they bite too hard she would push them away and then would not let that pup nurse the next time

PHMorgan: OK - I'm off to give Junior his meds... Night everyone