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Transcript: Dog Breeding Chat Tuesday, March 2, 2004: Evaluating Fronts and Rears Snake_Boi: Hello teacher_nr: Hi AvalonBorzoi: hi teacher_nr: Is this the right place for the discussion on evaluating fronts and rears in a breeding program? teacher_nr: I had only 2 students show up for class this evening and I am in the computer lab so thought I would join AvalonBorzoi: I think it is AvalonBorzoi: I've never been in this room before AvalonBorzoi: I suppose we may be a bit early teacher_nr: Yes, I think it sta teacher_nr: starts at 9 pm eastern which is in just a few minutes teacher_nr: I see you have Borzoi - I have miniature schnauzers AvalonBorzoi: yes I have aBorzoi AvalonBorzoi: rather Borzoi AvalonBorzoi: as I have several Deerhounds: Hello! Deerhounds: Hi, Avalon! reet724_nr: hi everyone. I know this chat is about dogs but I need some desperate fish help Deerhounds: hmmm, no host... maybe I need to change names AvalonBorzoi: I don't know a whole lot about fish AvalonBorzoi: it's been years since I kept an aquarium reet724_nr: there isn't a fish chat scheduled Deerhounds: reet, go ahead.... if we can help we will! Deerhounds: while we wait for the host to show up reet724_nr: I have a green severum about the size of an open hand. I actually have 2. a male and a female. I noticed that the female's eyes have some white on them, she will swim for a while then just quit. her sides are banged up, missing some scales. Deerhounds: I yarnell! Deerhounds: I mean HI LOL AvalonBorzoi: have you compared her to any photos of fish with various diseases Deerhounds: PHMorgan is on her way in, I just IMed her AvalonBorzoi: you can probably find some information online yarnell_nr: hi everyone AvalonBorzoi: some of the fish diseases are treatable with antibiotics in the water AvalonBorzoi: IF you know which disease it is Deerhounds: reet, I'm sure if you post on the AquariumHobbyist forums, someone will answer you quickly. http://forums.aquariumhobbyist.com yarnell_nr: hi morgan reet724_nr: first priority was getting her seperate from the other tank. have a ten gallon with about 1/2 water and air stones going PHMorgan: Man - for a moment I thought I landed in Fishy Chat! LOL Deerhounds: LOL Morgan, we were just trying to help reet out (although I don't think we actually were able to) while we waited for ya PHMorgan: Welcome, Everyone, to Breeder Chat! Topic tonight is Evaluating Fronts and Rears reet724_nr: oops, she just quit swimming again PHMorgan: What kinda fishy is it? reet724_nr: she looks so sad reet724_nr: green severum Deerhounds: I feel that the dogs should have one of each Deerhounds: also the bitches Deerhounds: and hopefully all the puppies yarnell_nr: can I stick a little brag in here before we get started PHMorgan: LOL reet724_nr: going to goto the fish forum, thanks PHMorgan: Christy & I were arguing last week about having a GOOD front and/or rear versus being balanced and which was the better.... Deerhounds: good luck reet! PHMorgan: I think that's not a bad place for us to start tonight. AvalonBorzoi: go to www.google.com PHMorgan: My take is that balance is more important AvalonBorzoi: and enter the words aquarium fish diseases AvalonBorzoi: I just did and it came up with a whole list of references AvalonBorzoi: I think it is a sighthound tendency to be a bit more angulated in the rear than the front PHMorgan: Opinions??? PHMorgan: I think it's a showdog tendency, based on my personal observations, Avalon Deerhounds: my personal choice, in my breed (Scottish Deerhounds) is that I can deal with a so-so rear, as long as the front is good, and I'd rather have a dog who has a really good front and a so-so rear, than a "balanced" dog who is so-so both front and rear AvalonBorzoi: most of the really fast dogs I've seen have a bit more rear than front from the "show dog" stand point Deerhounds: I find it's easier to fix rears, as a breeder, than fronts. Deerhounds: Avalon, what do you mean by "more rear than front"? PHMorgan: I have to agree with that in part, Christie - I'd rather have a better front than rear, given the option for the same exact reason - Fronts are harder to fix yarnell_nr: i find it easier to also fix rears in saints than fronts AvalonBorzoi: Well I don't mean like art deco AvalonBorzoi: but galloping breeds have a more upright front AvalonBorzoi: than trotting breeds AvalonBorzoi: however the front should not be forward Deerhounds: I understand what you're saying Deerhounds: I just wasn't sure from your first comment AvalonBorzoi: that's another issue and I HATE fronts set on forward AvalonBorzoi: it is really common in the show ring AvalonBorzoi: I guess the dogs can reach more because their fronts are already there :) Deerhounds: LOL Avalon Deerhounds: I have seen some really frightening front movement in my breed in recent years Deerhounds: completely incorrect yarnell_nr: do any of you have a problem with one paw that toes out or easty westy Deerhounds: but flashy Deerhounds: yarnell, just ONE paw? one side only? PHMorgan: I rarely see ONE, but sometimes TWO yarnell_nr: yes PHMorgan: LOL Deerhounds: I would expect one to be an injury of some kind Deerhounds: rather than a genetic fault PHMorgan: Usually it means 1) dog needs his chest to drop so the elbows will come in straight (normal) or 2) there is an injury Deerhounds: I want an immature dog to toe out a bit in front, so that when the chest drops, he or she is fairly north/south yarnell_nr: i feel that when the chest drops that is when you see a big change. Deerhounds: hiya corgilover! PHMorgan: I'm not, by the way, advocating BAD rears or BAD fronts in a breeding animal. BUT, I would choose a moderate, less angulated animal that was balanced as my breeding animal over a dog with a particularly nice front but a crumby rear PHMorgan: Or vice versa PHMorgan: And the dog must move CLEANLY, even if the rear or front (or, since the dog is supposed to be balanced, BOTH) don't have the reach and drive I'd like. yarnell_nr: my boy who is 13 months old toes out on his right foot at this time can wait for the chest to drop he also has a fantastic rear with a lot of drive Deerhounds: yarnell, is there any chance he injured his right foot at some point? PHMorgan: Mismatched fronts and rears seem to make for poorer movement than a balanced dog that could have better angulation Deerhounds: because the chest isn't going to impact the right foot differently than the left, they will still be off from each other yarnell_nr: no he has never limped one day in his life he has hugh bone at this time. Deerhounds: Morgan, I would say that a poorly angulated front will always result in bad movement in a deerhound PHMorgan: Unless the dog is SEVERELY right footed (many dogs are rightys or leftys) and that is just how he stands often - all his weight on the right paw Deerhounds: no matter how "balanced" the animal is Deerhounds: yarnell, what happens if you try to set him up with the right foot straight? PHMorgan: Deer - l et's define BAD MOVEMENT betweeen us so we are both talking about the same thing PHMorgan: For me, BAD movement in the front means a hackney gait or breaking at the pasterns Deerhounds: bad movement in the front: throwing the front, "high stepping," wasted movement, flipping the wrist Deerhounds: yes PHMorgan: YOu can get a dog who moves cleanly but doesn't have enough reach in the front Deerhounds: I see TOO MUCH reach Deerhounds: often PHMorgan: WHile that is NOT my idea of IDEAL movement, it's still OK by me as a START. Morgan does this Deerhounds: in deerhounds with bad fronts Deerhounds: straight fronts yarnell_nr: well I really can't say that it has hurt his chances of winning in the show ring since he got two majors and 2 points this past weekend he came out with 9 points Deerhounds: LOL yarnell Deerhounds: but as a breeder you want to know Deerhounds: hiya Trav! AvalonBorzoi: yes too much reach Deerhounds: Hiya Rueger! AvalonBorzoi: grack PHMorgan: She is very straight in the front, but does NOT hackney or break in her pastersn. She's not as efficient as her daughter, Z who has better angulation, but she is MORE efficient than a dog with say, proper angulation but too short an upper arm Rueger: hey ya guys Deerhounds: too much reach is what really grates on me like fingernails on a blackboards AvalonBorzoi: and the breaking at the pasterns I hate Deerhounds: blackboard PHMorgan: This is the single biggest issue I see in showdogs today - TOO SHORT AN UPPER ARM Deerhounds: Avalon, yes, and put the two together and it makes me want to CRY AvalonBorzoi: I would rather have a dog reach less but reach cleanly than have it fling its front out and break at the pasterns Deerhounds: yes yes yes PHMorgan: YES PHMorgan: Me too Deerhounds: LOL PHMorgan: But what do you mean by TOO MUCH REACH? PHMorgan: How is that possible? AvalonBorzoi: German Shepherd reach AvalonBorzoi: is not correct for a sighthound Deerhounds: the deerhound movement should be easy, active, and true AvalonBorzoi: although it is flashy and peolpe love to do ads wtih dogs doing that in them Deerhounds: this is a WASTEFUL ground eating TROT AvalonBorzoi: at least Borzoi people PHMorgan: Should not a sighthound reach as far forwards as possible to cover as much GROUND as possible???? Deerhounds: no AvalonBorzoi: No their working gait is not a trot PHMorgan: OK AvalonBorzoi: their trot is suspended and light PHMorgan: Fair enough AvalonBorzoi: and springy AvalonBorzoi: the shoulder that makes for the most front reach is not the most functional running shoulder Rueger: now breed should have reach and drive for covering as much ground as possible AvalonBorzoi: although it is hard to convince show only people of that PHMorgan: So is Z's, and she covers so much ground on one stride (a pointer, not a sighthound) that I can barely keep up Rueger: my breed that is PHMorgan: Course, a pointer can work nicely at a trot PHMorgan: It's not necessary fro them to gallp Deerhounds: sighthounds are a galloping breed Deerhounds: not a trotting breed PHMorgan: Gallop, even PHMorgan: Altho they shoudl be abe to Deerhounds: and neither deerhounds nor Borzois are racers PHMorgan: ABLE Deerhounds: they are endurance hunters PHMorgan: (off to find some typing lessons) yarnell_nr: A Saint must have reach and drive and also must single track in the rear
AvalonBorzoi: those dastardly jackrabbits and deer won't slow down enough for a trotting dog
PHMorgan: True - the birdies will sit and wait for a pointer
PHMorgan: LOL
PHMorgan: THey just gotta be able to go all day
AvalonBorzoi: Borzoi are more of a sprint dog than the Deerhounds since the old Russians used to think that if the dogs had to chase anything more than a couple of hundred yards that it was just a tail chase
Rueger: well shelties are build for endurance not speed LOL
PHMorgan: OK - so let's look quickly at terrier fronts
PHMorgan: This is a digging breed, so of course they don't need to cover a ton of ground
PHMorgan: THey should NOT have a huge amount of reach and drive
Deerhounds: the terrier front needs to be constructed so that they look good when strung up by their handlers. Right?
PHMorgan: So it's fine for them to be more upright in the shoulder
PHMorgan: NO
PHMorgan: They should have a nice length of pastern for DIGGING
PHMorgan: Which is going to affect their gait as well - a longer pastern on a too-angulated front is going to break as the dog moves
PHMorgan: Inefficient
PHMorgan: On a straighter shoulder, the longer pastern can hold true and be more efficient for a TERRIER
Deerhounds: <==== was joking
PHMorgan: Sorry - was in my groove - Of COURSE You were kidding
PHMorgan: LOL
yarnell_nr: i have a phone call will try and get back later
Rueger: I as thinking they need long pasterns to hol dhte shovel LOL
PHMorgan: Teacher - haven't seen you before! What is your breed?????
PHMorgan: Another thing a running breed needs is a nice long shoulder blade - something a working, pulling breed does not need -they need a WIDE blad
PHMorgan: blade
PHMorgan: On which to lay the heavy muscling they require for their job
PHMorgan: Look at the difference between a husky and a malamute
Deerhounds: I just realized that I have no idea how to critique or even DESCRIBE fronts in non-sighthounds
PHMorgan: One is a racing breed, the other is a pulling haulling breed
Deerhounds: and considering how obsessed I have been with it in sigthounds, that's kind of weird
PHMorgan: A husky is smaller, lighter in bone, with a longer blade, narrower front (comparatively) and the mal is a heavier dog, with more moderate angle and more width
PHMorgan: many of the guarding breeds have more moderate fronts as they are not supposed to be ground-eaters
PHMorgan: They should display strength rather than speed
Deerhounds: in what sense are they more moderate, do you mean angulation?
AvalonBorzoi: I think the American way of faster and better has turned the breed ring into a race course in many of the breeds
PHMorgan: So it's important to know what your breed's WORKING GAIT is before you look at the animal's construction
PHMorgan: Yes, I mean moderate in angle
AvalonBorzoi: which has over time probably changed front angles
PHMorgan: Avalon - I agree
AvalonBorzoi: in several breeds
AvalonBorzoi: kind of like the RR club declaring them sighthounds
AvalonBorzoi: so they could compete in coursing
PHMorgan: I see Danes and Mals and even MASTIFF breeds with these huge wide trots - silly for them to even have that giaty
PHMorgan: gait
AvalonBorzoi: now that has sure changed the RR from the original ones
Deerhounds: and created a breed split
PHMorgan: OK - what about rears?
Deerhounds: in a breed that already has trouble with type
Deerhounds: I once was an addict for perfectly sound rears
PHMorgan: One thing I see SEVERELY lacking in MY breed is a second thigh with any power to it
Deerhounds: and then one day I looked a deer, LOL
Deerhounds: and saw that they were a bit hocky
Deerhounds: and I noticed that a certain amount of hockiness was common in many top coursing hounds
Deerhounds: I say a BIT hocky
AvalonBorzoi: exactly what I was going to say
Deerhounds: I don't mean a hound who is getting in his own way
PHMorgan: What is the purpose of the slight turn in to the hocks????
PHMorgan: How does it function?
AvalonBorzoi: the previously #1 LC Whippet of all time was ever so slightly hocky
PHMorgan: What does it allow for that straighter hocks do NOT?
AvalonBorzoi: and it never hurt him
Deerhounds: I honestly don't know *how* it functions
AvalonBorzoi: I think it has to do with turning
Deerhounds: I just observe that many of nature's fastest runners are, in fact, somewhat hocky
PHMorgan: Perhaps on a long-legged galloping breed, it's not particularly nice looking standing still, but extremely useful on the move...
AvalonBorzoi: dogs that are very agile use their rears and take the wweight off their fronts for turns
Deerhounds: I think perhaps that slight hockiness might give more stability while also allowing easier movement or change of direction
Deerhounds: like keeping your knees from locking when you are weight lifting or exercising
AvalonBorzoi: some great cow ponies are also slightly hocky
Deerhounds: right
AvalonBorzoi: not extremely cowhocked
PHMorgan: Perhaps the hockiness, in fact, permits more SIDEWAYS movement of the rear feet on the move, making those turns more efficient and preventing tipping
Deerhounds: some great RACEHORSES
AvalonBorzoi: but I can forgive a slightly hocky dog
Deerhounds: I think we have to be sure to say we are talking about a small amount of hockiness
AvalonBorzoi: although I have some that are dead true who can spin on a dime
Deerhounds: obviously this can be taken so far that you're forgiving a dog whose rear is a mess
PHMorgan: I am ok with that IN A SIGHTHOUND, so long as the feet drive off cleanly when moving
PHMorgan: I still want to see full extenstion of the rear from teh side, and a powerful drive off the hocks
AvalonBorzoi: yes I am only talking about a dog that stands slightly off square
AvalonBorzoi: not one whose feet point in the opposite directions
Deerhounds: my Borzoi is a bit too hocky for me, but she is fast and agile.....
Deerhounds: she is like greased lightening and can turn on a dime
PHMorgan: I have more issues with LONG hocks or mismatched stifle angles than with hockiness
PHMorgan: Long hocks make for a poor lever when driving off the rear
Deerhounds: well, I do want to go back to the issue of strength you raised earlier
Deerhounds: I do HATE weedy rears
Deerhounds: I like a good, strong, well-muscled rear
Deerhounds: and I want a dog who has that without any extraordinary amount of type of exercise
PHMorgan: As the dog pushes off a longer hock, he must expend more effort to push forward than if the hock is shorter and must only turn off the shorter bone to drive the dog's body forward
AvalonBorzoi: Long hocks are my pet peeve or one of them
AvalonBorzoi: also that hock is a much longer and thus less stable fulcrum
PHMorgan: Along with this, there MUSt be power in the second thigh to work this construction
AvalonBorzoi: for direction changes
Deerhounds: and I want spring without any "droop"
AvalonBorzoi: and for acceleration
Deerhounds: well, obviously they have to droop in the rear....
PHMorgan: And, if the dog's bones from the hip to stifle and stifle to hock are not matched, there is going to be some really funky stuff going on
Deerhounds: I just want to make sure they don't do the GSD thing
PHMorgan: It's also important to look at the angle of the pelvis
PHMorgan: ON a galloping breed, the pelvis must be slightly tilted to allow the rear legs to tuck under
PHMorgan: On other breeds, a flatter pelvis is fine
PHMorgan: You will also see a slightly lower tailset on a galloping breed
PHMorgan: It goes with that tilted pelvis
AvalonBorzoi: well you hope
Deerhounds: LOL
AvalonBorzoi: of course they can have a low tail set and still carry the *&^% things where they want to
Deerhounds: ROFL
PHMorgan: LOL
PHMorgan: Yeah - I have a friend who owns a magnificent 32 inch tall greyhound
PHMorgan: He thinks he is a pointer
Deerhounds: ROFL
PHMorgan: He wags that dang thing all the time
PHMorgan: It's 5 feet long
PHMorgan: LIterally
AvalonBorzoi: 32 inch Greyhound egads
AvalonBorzoi: yes and GH's bang the skin off their tails
Deerhounds: Trav.... what should a Pom rear be like?
PHMorgan: And he knocks candlesticks of her MANTLE
AvalonBorzoi: pretty easily with those big wags
PHMorgan: Yeah - I haven't much clue on the toys - what is proper construction for them?
PHMorgan: How much angle is wanted
Deerhounds: some of them have very extreme movement
Deerhounds: such as Pekes
Deerhounds: I'm not sure how they are constructed under there, to get that distinctive gait
PHMorgan: Pekes move?
Deerhounds: LOL
Deerhounds: Pekes have to have a particular movement
PHMorgan: I thought they had skateboards under all that coat
Deerhounds: LOL
PHMorgan: They are so cute - I love their little sailor roll
travlinpom_nr: Deer, poms should be built like any nordic breed
Deerhounds: Pom, that's good to know! How common are bad rears or fronts in Poms? Do breeders pay attention to that?
travlinpom_nr: Bad rears are very very common . . . luxated patellas . . . bad fronts are also seen pretty regularly, but not as bad as the rears
Deerhounds: what type of bad fronts do Poms tend to have?
travlinpom_nr: too tight fronts, crossing over . . . or that nasty high stepping thing that looks like a min pim
Deerhounds: Trav, I cant' even IMAGINE a high stepping Pom... that's a shame
PHMorgan: I've seen it - it's cute but incorrect
travlinpom_nr: deer, it's nasty . . . cutsey little movement, very short steps but very high . . . even over the head
PHMorgan: EW
travlinpom_nr: you can spot the handler's hand moving up and down with these guys . . . very bouncy
Deerhounds: can you imagine that in a large nordic breed, LOL?
PHMorgan: Picturing a high-stepping Samoyed
PHMorgan: Another thing I want to throw in about fronts
PHMorgan: It DOES matter about chest depth
Deerhounds: well, of course
PHMorgan: If the dog is a galloping breed, he NEEDS to have depth to give himself lung capacity - and this will determine how cleanly his elbows lie as he moves. Too shallow and he will throw his elbows all over. (Common on adolescent animals) Too deep, however, and he can't reach BACK cleanly without hitting the ribs... (you hardly ever see this!)
Deerhounds: hi there whippetgood!
Deerhounds: LOL, the sighthounds are taking over!
whippetgood: hello, it's kiesha :)
PHMorgan: Welcome to Breeder Chat! Topic tonight is Evaluating Fronts and Rears
Deerhounds: hey Kiesha!
Deerhounds: You left me here to explain why you can have TOO MUCH reach in a sighthound front without you
whippetgood: LOL
AvalonBorzoi: Depth of chest does matter but you can have too much
PHMorgan: YOu can
whippetgood: TRAD is not wanted in a galloping breed
Deerhounds: Morgan, not just depth but rib spring
AvalonBorzoi: look at most of the AKC Greyhounds
Deerhounds: I did my best to explain it
Deerhounds: but for the sake of the transcript, you might want to cover it again.
whippetgood: i like john burchard's analogy of a rubber band
PHMorgan: Also, it's not much use to have a huge round barrel chest on a breed whose work is RUNNING. He gets in his own way with those wide ribs.... NOtice the working breeds will have more barrel chests because their normal gait is not quite so ground-covering
whippetgood: speed in a galloping breed comes from the relsease of stored energy in tendons/ligaments/muscles
Deerhounds: I haven't heard that one, Kiesha
whippetgood: oops release
PHMorgan: The wider ribcage permits lung capacity BUT also a wide back on which to lay muscles designed for strength and power
Deerhounds: hi Mow
whippetgood: you want "tight" as it stores and relseases the energy more efficiently without being lost
PHMowgli: hey
whippetgood: loose ligaments/tendons are like old, floppy rubber bands, they don't store and release the energy efficiently
Deerhounds: I have seen a lot of deerhounds in the show ring AND in the coursing field
Deerhounds: I think anyone who judges sighthounds should have to see them course, not just trot
whippetgood: they give you a flying trot (TRAD) but they are inefficient at the gallop
Deerhounds: that's the part I said
AvalonBorzoi: yes but I'd be thrilled if the breeders bothered to see their dogs at a hard gallop a lot much less the judges
Deerhounds: LOL Avalon
Deerhounds: although it's not funny, really
Deerhounds: it's very sad
AvalonBorzoi: I know
whippetgood: watching dogs gallop fast is quite an education
Deerhounds: and watching them gallop on varying terrain
AvalonBorzoi: I had a lovely dog finish his CH recently and no one understood why I would have sold him because he was such a great showdog
Deerhounds: I really got why deerhounds can't have a flat back, watching them gallop on hilly terrain
AvalonBorzoi: with TRAD
Deerhounds: I think there is more of a field/ring split in Borzois than deerhounds
AvalonBorzoi: so those who know me know why I sold a dog with 10 points and a major
AvalonBorzoi: there is because our gene pool is larger so there
AvalonBorzoi: are other places to go
Deerhounds: sorry, Morgan, didn't mean to get offr topic!
AvalonBorzoi:
Deerhounds: Avalon, which is a good thing, I agree!
whippetgood: something else i think is funny is that a lot of show whippet breeds talk about the "horrid" fronts on race dogs, because many of them toe out
Deerhounds: Kiesha, I know, that does kind of make my head spin
whippetgood: however most race whippets have WONDERFUL shoulders
AvalonBorzoi: I think a horrid front and rear is one that cannot produce acceleration to over 30 mph
Deerhounds: if the RACING dogs have "horrid" fronts, maybe the SHOW PEOPLE need to consider their definition of a "horrid" front
PHMorgan: Again - I think that toeing out can add to manoeverability
AvalonBorzoi: without blowing apart
whippetgood: a lot of the show dogs don't toe out, but they have awful shoulders, and upright in pastern and overangulated in the rear
PHMorgan: GAG
PHMorgan: Many of them seem to "simper" around the ring instead of a clean, efficient trot with a spring in the topline
AvalonBorzoi: and completely smooth muscles those Whippet show people
AvalonBorzoi: just don't want to see muscles in the show ring
Deerhounds: many people can't evaluate a shoulder, even in a breed without coat
AvalonBorzoi: which is a real shame in that breed
PHMorgan: One huge thing I hate to see in a sighthound is a hard flat topline with no spring
whippetgood: exactly.....by definition a "good" front and rear is that structure which consistently functions correctly
PHMorgan: That dog is gonna break down on the first turn of a real gallop
Deerhounds: they can tell if the dog is toeing in or out, but the shoulder just goes right past them
PHMorgan: Magnificently stated, Whippet
whippetgood: thanks....it had turned into my "pet peeve"
whippetgood: oops has
whippetgood: it seems like several breeds have gone for that overangulated rear/straight front look
PHMorgan: Well, it DOES look very nice in those show photos
Deerhounds: Morgan, is that what you meant by lack of balance?
PHMorgan: Even if the poor dogs have NO NECK
PHMorgan: YES
AvalonBorzoi: In Borzoi you see a lot of show dogs with good enough shoulders but their fronts are set on in front of their withers
Deerhounds: OK, then I understand now
AvalonBorzoi: and they have tremendous reach
PHMorgan: Fronts and rears gotta match, no matter WHAT the breed
Deerhounds: I just don't know what "gotta match" means... angulation?
PHMorgan: Yes, the angles must match
PHMorgan: That means, the angle of the shoulder blade and upper arm must match the angle from the hip to stifle and stifle to hock
PHMorgan: Otherwise, you got one INEFFICIENT moving dog, no matter how pretty it is standing still
AvalonBorzoi: I still think the fastest Borzoi and Greyhounds I've seen are slightly more angulated in the rear than the front
AvalonBorzoi: not to the degree that I see in the show ring though
whippetgood: sandra, i have seen a lot of that in whippets, borzoi and akc greyhounds
Deerhounds: Avalon, that's what it says in Gazehounds: The Se
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