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Transcript: Dog Breeding Chat Tuesday, March 29, 2005: Pre-Breeding Testing PHMorgan: WElcome folks, to Breeder Chat! Tonight's Topic is Pre-Breeding Testing borzoid: Hi Sams! PHMowgli: Welcome to Breeders Chat!!! Tonights Topic is Pre Breeding Testing!!! Ginger_nr: whats pre-breeding testing? SamsSammy: What is really funny is watching the Sammy run across the floor with the Eskimo firmly attatched to his tail PHMorgan: That is testing that is done before breeding to rule out disease AND genetic disorders that might be passed on to puppies. PHMowgli: sam you gotta get some pics I cannot wait to see him PHMorgan: So - what kinds of testing would that entail? SamsSammy: Hi Borzoid. Ginger_nr: what kind of dog does everyone have? PHMowgli: Brucellosis is first and foremost!! borzoid: Go Mowgli PHChristy: Hello everyone! Sorry I'm late! PHMowgli: but also for some breeds OFA, CERF, VWD, THYROID borzoid: Hi Christy PHMowgli: Welcome to Breeders Chat!!! Tonights Topic is Pre Breeding Testing!!! PHChristy: hey there borzoid :)
PHChristy: LOL Mow, does that topic REALLY deserve SIX exclamation points?
PHMowgli: I myself test for the 5 I mentioned
borzoid: For Borzoi it's CERF, Cardiac, Thyroid
PHChristy: I agree it's a good topic
PHChristy: ;)
PHMowgli: I like !!!!!
PHMorgan: BOr - would you expand on those a bit - I think a few folks here are REALLY new and might not know what those are
PHMowgli: lots of em
PHChristy: I do a cardiac ultrasound, cystinuria screening test, thyroid, ACTH stim test
PHMorgan: Let
PHChristy: cystinuria is a genetic kidney defect that has suddenly erupted in my breed
kaana: Imy bitches get CERF, Thyroid and Bile Acid test, cardian and hips..anything else I should be looking at
PHChristy: kaana, what breed is this?
PHMowgli: kaana what breed do you have?
PHMorgan: Let's each give a BRIEF simplfied description of these various tests so new folks know what they are - just like Christie dide
kaana: norfolks
PHMorgan: *Did
borzoid: Cardiac Oscultation or Ultrasound if warranted, CERF and I had a full Thyroid panel done on Chasm
PHChristy: is the bile acid test for liver shunts?
kaana: yes
PHMowgli: ok VWD von willebrand diseaseis like a hemophiliac (bleeder) OFA is hip x-ray for hip dysplasia
PHChristy: we will have an osteosarcoma genetic test within the year, and then I'll do that also. But for now we can't screen for the big three, which are osteo, cardiomyopathy, and bloat
Ginger_nr: well guys i think im gonna leave
Ginger_nr: bye
PHChristy: night GInger
PHMorgan: NIght Ginger - come again
borzoid: What breeds test for Von willebrand
PHMowgli: CERF is an eye exam for collie eye anomoly and other eye problems
PHChristy: Dobies for sure, Borzoid
PHMorgan: I know GSDs do, and I think Dobermans
PHMowgli: Borz most of the collie and herding breeds
PHChristy: hi there bossanova! LTNS!
PHMowgli: Welcome to Breeders Chat!!! Tonights Topic is Pre Breeding Testing!!!
PHMorgan: Hey!
borzoid: Oh OK, I had a doctor think I had it once
PHMowgli: hey bossanova
berta: Hi all
PHMowgli: hey berta
bossanovabassets: I know...life has been nutzoid!!!
PHChristy: borzoid, thought you had von Willebrands?
PHMowgli: lots of breeds now have ekg's ran for hearts
berta: sounds like you covered all the tests already
PHMowgli: no way berta
borzoid: Yep - after I donated blood once and the needle site wouldn't clot
PHChristy: I do a cardiac ultrasound and an ekg, but the sad fact is, a dog with a totally normal exam could develop cardiomyopathy the next day
PHChristy: very frustrating in my breed
PHMowgli: borz you mean hemophilia?
PHMorgan: It's very frustrating in MANY breeds, Christie
PHChristy: Mowgli, no, von Willebrands is also in humans
PHMowgli: christy that is the same problem with thyroid panels!!!
berta: Optigen testing for PRA?
kaana: but even if you do all the testing ..you can still have a pup with a problelm due to some hiding recessive gene[img id=em-6]
PHChristy: more common in women than hemophilia, which is almost only in men
PHMorgan: It's useful to also know the onset age of some of these disorders so you can choose an opportune time to breed your dogs
borzoid: No he said von willibrand - because I passed all the normal clotting tests for hemophelia
PHChristy: Mowgli, yes it is
PHChristy: Morgan, excellent point...
PHMorgan: FOr example, epilepsy, for which there is no current test, is often not seen in my breed until the dogs are 3 or 4
bossanovabassets: We don't do a whole lot of testing in bassets.......glaucoma, eye certs are the big one.
PHMowgli: ok borz I was clarifying which as used both in my explanation
PHMorgan: SO.... if you have a line that is at risk (meaning some relatives have had it) you want to wait to breed until you are fairly sure your dog is not affectedc
PHChristy: bossanova, not OFA?
borzoid: Thyroid problems can be late onset as well
PHChristy: I had a friend who had von Willebrand's disease, she passed away from AIDS about six years ago.
bossanovabassets: Sometimes...the problem is that bassets leg structures are so different from other dogs....
berta: gotta let the dogs out brb
PHChristy: she used to be very amused that she had what I always thought was a "dog disease"
bossanovabassets: We often see their x-rays misinterpreted.
PHMorgan: LOL
PHMowgli: how about cancers?? anyone worried about how they will produce since so many sho up late in life?
PHChristy: Mowgli, bone cancer is the big on in deerhounds
borzoid: Is there any testing that can be done in advance?
PHMowgli: Welcome to Breeders Chat!!! Tonights Topic is Pre Breeding Testing!!!
PHChristy: and we are blessed that a genetic screening test will soon be available
borzoid: Hi pom, Boston
bossanovabassets: I had a beautiful bitch.....a vet unexperienced in bassets would have had me do a crippling surgery..
PHChristy: hi there Travlinpom and BostonRott!
PHMorgan: Many pointers are claimed in the end by cancer, but often it doesn't show up until over 12 years of age. I'm not sure I consider this a breed issue. Something is going to get them in the end
PHMowgli: hey trav and boston
BostonRott_nr: Evening!
PHChristy: other than that, deerhounds very rarely get cancer
bossanovabassets: The only thing wrong with her was that she was a basset.
BostonRott_nr: The Broad Institute (MIT in Boston) is doing a study on osteosarcoma in all breeds, looking for marekeres
PHMowgli: I agree morgan but what about the ones with concers at age 4 and 5
PHMorgan: Poor girl! Good thing YOU knew better
BostonRott_nr: ugh, markers (excuse my spelling)
PHMorgan: We don't have those in my breed, but GOldens, labs and now many ridgebacks are seeing this
PHMorgan: IT's a shame
PHChristy: Boston, I believe that they have found the Irish Wolfhound marker already, ours next, and that they are working on greyhounds now
PHChristy: not at Boston, though... maybe... North Carolina?
travlinpom_nr: hey all
PHMowgli: right morgan and we are losing some wonderful dogs because of the apparent rampant effect of the disease
BostonRott_nr: Broad Inst is working with.......I want to say Michigan? in a joint study
bossanovabassets: VWS is beginning to appear occasionally in bassets....
BostonRott_nr: colllecitng bloodsample, and pedigree if avail on all dogs, healthy and sick
BostonRott_nr: what is VWS?
borzoid: Sounds right Rott - I've heard of a bone study at MSU
BostonRott_nr: von Willibrands?
PHChristy: University of North Carolina did our research
PHMowgli: Michigan state is doing a cancer study
BostonRott_nr: Cancer is eating rotties alive
BostonRott_nr: Osteo and lympho are our big two
PHChristy: Boston, like Goldens
travlinpom_nr: The Pom Club has two studies that they are currently helping to fund, both are for BSD - Black Skin Disease
PHMowgli: Welcome to Breeders Chat!!! Tonights Topic is Pre Breeding Testing!!!
BostonRott_nr: we have hemangio too, but not at the rate that Goldens do
PHChristy: travlin, that's right, you were telling me about that a couple of months ago
BostonRott_nr: Hey laura!
PHChristy: hi there Rolar!
PHChristy: Roslar, sorry!
bossanovabassets: What is Black Skin Disease?
Roslar_nr: Howdy
PHMowgli: shelties are studying dermamyositis
travlinpom_nr: Boss, it is a hair loss problem that is very prevalent in Poms
BostonRott_nr: Another thing we've recently discussed in Rotties is CCL (ACL) tears and trying to pinpoint lines which are more prone
borzoid: Is it thyroid related pom?
bossanovabassets: Oh, I had never heard of it before.
PHChristy: here is a link on Black Skin disease in poms: http://www.pcoc.net/black-skin-disease.htm
travlinpom_nr: The big problem is that many breeders see it as simply and "esthetic" problem, but there are many other problems associated with BSD
PHChristy: Boston, does there seem to be a familial tendency in ACL injuries?
berta: Actually sex hormone related from what I've read
BostonRott_nr: it amazes me the different issues that different breeds have, stuff I'd never think of!
BostonRott_nr: Christy, some think so
travlinpom_nr: borzoid, no it is not thyroid related, but many times thyroid hair loss is mistaken for BSD
PHMowgli: trav does it deteriorate the muscles also?
BostonRott_nr: Any research that I can find, or ortho vets that I talk to say "not really"
BostonRott_nr: they can't seem to correlate to angle of tibial plateau (which certainly would run in a line)
borzoid: Borzoi thyroid problems are noticed first because of the hair loss
BostonRott_nr: Rottie thyroid problems are often noticed b/c of behavioural changes, and sometimes coat issues
travlinpom_nr: Mow, the TRUE bsd dogs that i have seen seem to also have some neurological issues . . . shakey front legs, balance issues, etc
PHMowgli: borz dermamyositis is often misdiagnsed as thyroid too
PHMowgli: trav I wonder if it is related to our dermamyositis??
berta: Thyroid in Akitas often is noticed due to change in temperment
BostonRott_nr: Christy, what we're trying to do at this point is get the online pedigree data base (Pawvillage) filled in with more data on which dogs have had CCL tears, and at least start with simple data collection, and then start looking at lines
PHMowgli: it is a skin and muscle disease for us first signs are normally patches of dark flaky scaly skin
borzoid: What seems to be most prevalant across all breeds?
Roslar_nr: Gretchen, would you ever breed a dog that blew a cruciate? Or breed to a dog with it?
travlinpom_nr: Mow, I know that the researchers have tried to find a common thread, some think sex hormone, some think it is not related at all to hormones, very tough to diagnose . . . often mistaken for thyroid, parasites, and vice versa
PHChristy: Boston, that's the best thing to do....
PHMowgli: for shelties right now I have to say we have really reduced incidence in disease that can be tested for
PHChristy: Boston, who is participating?
PHChristy: Roslar, great question
PHMorgan: I think eye disorders, heart disorders and hip displasia are common in MANY breeds, altho certainly not all
BostonRott_nr: It's a decision that I'm greatly wrestling with right now Laura. My Froli dau tore hers at 18mos. Littermates are fine, and the dog which it "supposedly" comes down through is linebred on in my A litter, and no problems there.
PHMowgli: exactly trav we are having problem it is not common but occurs often enough to be a problem
BostonRott_nr: I truly think hers is a freak accident
PHMowgli: morgan I agree those are the big 3
BostonRott_nr: b/c of how she is
borzoid: brb - puppies
travlinpom_nr: One of the big issues is that many breeders will still use a BSD dog and even stand him at stud. They think it is a minor problem
BostonRott_nr: but I'm not making a decision yet.......probably won't do anything til she's 4, and keep watching littermates
PHMowgli: luxated patella''s are another problem in many breeds
Roslar_nr: I have been lucky (knock on wood), I haven't had a dog blow a cruciate. And I have some dogs with extreme angulation and straight angulation.
BostonRott_nr: i'm not entirely thrilled about it, and the buyers would have full disclosure, as well as I've entered her info in Pawvillage, for all to see
PHMowgli: trav we had that at first with dermamyositis dogs but not anymore thankfully
PHChristy: it's very hard to prioritize things sometimes, esp in breeds with small numbers
PHMorgan: I'm not sure cruiciate problems have so much to do with angulation as overall ligament soundness
PHChristy: so when you get into "maybes," it's very easy to dismiss them
BostonRott_nr: She's moderately angulated, nothing extreme either way. She's kept light, she's an agility girlie, and she did it accelerating and turning while already at speed
berta: I think with the cruciate it depends on whether it tears in normal behavior or it's a trauma
bossanovabassets: ONe big problem in my breed is that a prominent breeder had a dog who was used over and ov er again....then developed glaucoma. They didn't notify those who had bred to the dog.....it ruined some breeders breeding program.
travlinpom_nr: Mow, a couple of the top producing Poms in the country are BSD dogs . . . a couple others are sired by BSD dogs, it's pretty rough
BostonRott_nr: Banja did hers during hard activity (agility practice)
Roslar_nr: I think extreme angulation can cause a problem. Because more and more Rottweiler breeders are breeding GSD angulation, and that is incorrect for Rottweilers.
PHMowgli: Oh my trav that is a big problem for the breed then
BostonRott_nr: o yes, I totally agree with that!
BostonRott_nr: Bossa, that's really sad
PHMowgli: although I am sure our problem stemmed from just usch and incident yrs ago
PHMorgan: Yes, popular sires with late onset issues are often truly detrimental to any breed
BostonRott_nr: yes
ode2adream: very true
PHMorgan: ANd it's sad because the poor dogs often also produce GREAT things, and often they ahve been used so often before anyone knows.
PHChristy: and if all breeders were like us here, think how many fewer sick dogs we'd have in our breeds!
PHMorgan: The only thing one can use for blame is if folks aren't informed as soon as it is known
BostonRott_nr: Laura, I've heard it can come down through P litter of hegestrauch (i.e. supposedly Prico has thrown numerous cruciates). Have you heard that? Froli was a Pascha grand-dau (Pascha and Prico were litermates), so I'm really trying to do as much research as I can before I make the decision
bossanovabassets: Roslar...isn't that a sad thing!!! Bassets are being bred down in size right now.........and those smaller dogs are winning in the ring......I hate seeing what it doing....
travlinpom_nr: Some rough choices, you cant throw out every dog that has a BSD dog in the pedigree, but you sure have to be careful with the breedings
PHMowgli: the truly sad thing is when a dog is affected but not diagnosed due to lack of symptoms
bossanovabassets: Yes....
Roslar_nr: Gretchen, I don't know much about Prico. I have been told that he produced numerous health concerns, but never nailed down anything particular.
PHMowgli: how many ofspring are produced before a disease is found? how does this affect us generations down the road?
bossanovabassets: Mowgli......unfortunately....some breeders are not honest when that happens........leading to further problems for others down the line......
PHChristy: :(
PHMorgan: OK - so let's talk about non-inherited things to test for
PHMowgli: luckily we now have places like this where we can discuss these issues and help to stop these problems
ode2adream: very true...
PHChristy: Morgan?
PHChristy: like brucellosis?
PHMorgan: How many of you have a bacteria level done before breeding your stud dogs, or request on before breeding to one?
BostonRott_nr: One of the big "we don't have that" problems in Rottweilers is SAS (heart).....so many deny it exists
PHMowgli: brucellosis
PHMorgan: sure, that too
Roslar_nr: Boss, it makes me sick to see a Rottweiler stacked in the show ring, and in order to make his/her hocks perpendicular to the ground, the hips are 6 inches lower than the shoulders. Rottweilers are suppose to have LEVEL toplines.
BostonRott_nr: I have the bitch tested, even if she's maiden, and also ask for results from the male
ode2adream: Mines still a pup...but I definatly plan to before any breeding..if I breed.
berta: One stud that was used excessively in our breed has been condemned for producing a large number of HD but considering the amount of offspring he produced the percentage isn't really any higher than lesser used "top" studs
PHMowgli: vaginal checks are a must on my girls not just for disease or bacteria but on first timers fr strictures and other problems too
bossanovabassets: If a stud has been used often...or if the dog has been used outside the "family"...those I know well....
bossanovabassets: Brucellosis I mean?
BostonRott_nr: there was a very famous stud in Germany (rotts) who got a bacterial infection and then service 15-20 bitches before they figured it out
Roslar_nr: I always have a culture done on my bitches. My next breeding will be frozen semen, so HE won't have to worry about that. lol
PHChristy: yikes
BostonRott_nr: they don't test for bacterial levels over there (which drives me NUTS) and so things spread quickly before they figure it out
PHChristy: you know, Dr. Hutch is seriously skeptical about the value of cultures... NOT brucellosis testing, but vaginal and cervical cultures
BostonRott_nr: Good luck Laura!!! I did a frozen AI 2 yrs ago and eneded up with 9 honkin' huge pups! :)
bossanovabassets: I understand how you feel regarding the top line of rotti's .
berta: What's with some people routinely putting their bitches on antibiotics prior to breeding them?
PHMorgan: It's also not a bad idea to have any stud dog's sperm checked before yyou use him - if you have things planned as carefully as most of us do, it's useful to know if the dog you choose is shooting blanks so you can choose another
PHMowgli: hmm now boston many repro vets will say bacteria is normal and shoud be present
BostonRott_nr: yes, have heard that Christy. I test for brucellosis, but don't run the other cultures unless there's been a problem
PHChristy: berta, IMO that's insanity
bossanovabassets: Have any of you done multiple stud breedings?
travlinpom_nr: Morgan, i just went through that . . . my top bitch . . . expensive breeding . . . no puppies
PHChristy: I think ANY routine use of antibiotics is just sitting up and asking the universe for trouble with a capital T
Roslar_nr: Thanks Gretchen. I got the semen for my Shelby (Taylor's sister), and she had ovarian cysts and had to be spayed. So I saved it for my Taylor daughter. She'll be 2 in Oct, and after health clearances, will be bred to his semen next spring.
berta: NO and I never will
BostonRott_nr: i've heard of routine abx before breeding, as well as routine vax before breeding. I disagree with both practices
PHChristy: I have trouble finding one stud I want to use, let alone multiples LOL
PHMorgan: Yeah, the wonderful, healthy, good tempered birdy sound studdog I just found is currently sterile. We're hoping he is back in business before summer.... SIGH
BostonRott_nr: no, no mult stud and never would either
Roslar_nr: Amen to that Christy !! lol
berta: It's greed pure and simple
bossanovabassets: I have heard of it being done....a few times in my breed.....especially among those who breed in much larger volume than I would ever consider.
borzoid: There have been some multiple stud breedings in borzoi - seems like an expensive proposition
PHMowgli: the only way I would have mutliples isif a girl broke into my stud kennel LOL
ode2adream: *lol*
PHChristy: LOL Mow
travlinpom_nr: multiple stud is way too expensive for me
BostonRott_nr: i have a litter planned in July, stud owner just called me tonight after shooting OFA"s today and told me hips and elbows weren't looking good. i almost cried, it easily takes me 2yrs to find a stud
bossanovabassets: Mow or vice versa.
Roslar_nr: I only know of 1 Rottweiler breeder who has tried the multiple sire way. I heard the puppies ended up out of 1 stud though.
borzoid: I would only consider it if the girl were of an age where I didn't expect to able to breed her again
PHMowgli: and with the pric to register the litter I think I would place pups as pets no reg spay nueter contract LOL
PHChristy: Roslar, I've heard that is the most common result
borzoid: I've heard of that to Roslar
Roslar_nr: Awe Gretchen, I'm sorry to hear that.
BostonRott_nr: then he said "early April fools!"
BostonRott_nr: i was ready to kill him!!! It's not nice to mess with an 8mos pregnant lady's head!!! :)
Roslar_nr: Oooh, that's bad !!!
PHChristy: LOL
BostonRott_nr: yes, it was!!!!
BostonRott_nr: bad bad Ron!
Roslar_nr: Who's the stud?
bossanovabassets: Boston...I would have killed him..
BostonRott_nr: an unknown, German import
BostonRott_nr: Junky vom Herrenholz
BostonRott_nr: his grandmother is, in my opinion, one of the top bitches Germany ever had (Meggy v Herrenholz)
Roslar_nr: Oh, yea............never heard of him. ;-)
berta: I know of a "surprise" litter where it could be one of three studs she's had at her place She's sent in DNA on everyone to figure out who da poppa is.
PHMowgli: Welcome to Breeders Chat!!! Tonights Topic is Pre Breeding Testing!!!
BostonRott_nr: He's young, untitled, but I've watched him work, LOVE his structure and his pedigree. I'll get what I want now, and Ron can spend his time titling him
PHMowgli: wow berta that had to be pricy in the long run
PHMorgan: I think one person said the best way to get a mulitple sire litter is to AI with a mix of the sperm - apparently it takes SECONDS for sperm to travel to the eggs so using 2 doesn't work so well
BostonRott_nr: I asked him to do heart, eyes, thyroid at my expense and those have all been cleared. OFA shot today, and hopefully an Excellent........we'd be breeding 2 OFA Ex's with clear elbows, cardiac , CERF and thyroids!! :) :)
Roslar_nr: I thought about importing semen from Australia, but it would have ended up costing me almost $4000 by the time everything was done. And that's not including the costs of the implant.
berta: Oh you betcha....... the worst part was it was a young bitch and had difficultlies lost 1/2 the litter and then had her sutures tear open
travlinpom_nr: Mow, had a friend who had an "oops" litter, just one puppy, had to test three stud dogs . . . named the puppy "Who's Your Daddy"
PHChristy: LOL
berta: Kind of story you tell people to convince them NOT to bred their pets
BostonRott_nr: my frozen litter was imported from Holland, total costs with implant were about $4000
ode2adream: *lol*
PHMowgli: ha ha trav cute name
bossanovabassets: LOLtrav
PHMorgan: $4K is a bit much
BostonRott_nr: They're just OFA'ing now.....one is back at Good/normal, and I"m waiting on 4 more
travlinpom_nr: Mow, cost her a bundle to have all the testing done, but the puppy is really nice, finished a few months ago
bossanovabassets: Too rich for my blood....errr wallet.
BostonRott_nr: well, the $4k covered the collection in Holland, the FedEx from Holland, the progesterone and LH testing on my bitch, the surgical implant
BostonRott_nr: and the stud fee
PHMorgan: STILL
PHMorgan: MAN
PHMowgli: Welcome to Breeders Chat!!! Tonights Topic is Pre Breeding Testing!!!
PHChristy: Hi Minuet!
Minuet: HI!
PHMowgli: Welcome to Breeders Chat!!! Tonights Topic is Pre Breeding Testing!!!
PHChristy: WB Kdobie!
Minuet: Thought I'd pop in and say hi
Kdobie_nr: hi
PHMowgli: hey min wb kdobie
BostonRott_nr: paid cash for the stud fee, the rest went on plastic
BostonRott_nr: :)
Roslar_nr: :-)
PHChristy: thank god for plastic
PHMorgan: So, are you all finding that puppy folks are ASKING about testing? Are they asking about specific testing? Are folks becoming informed about what they need to check for in your breeds?
PHChristy: when it comes to vet bills
PHMowgli: 4k is a bit high for s service to me
BostonRott_nr: How hard do you find it (in your respective breed) to get breeders to admit there's a new health problem and start testing for it?
Roslar_nr: The semen I have waiting is only half paid for. I need to send pictures of Monkey to the stud owner, to see if she approves. I know she liked Taylor, so she should like her daughter.
bossanovabassets: oooooh..plastic..get's me into trouble.
PHMowgli: morgan yes actually I am findng more and more wanting to see testing on parents which is great in my opinion
ode2adream: *asked too many questions* *lol*
PHMorgan: I agree
PHMorgan: I'm always happy to see how many folks are beginning to ask questions, and even ask teh RIGHT questions
bossanovabassets: How many of you spend many hours convinicing people not to breed their nice pet dogs?
PHMorgan: BRB - beagle needs to poty
PHMowgli: still some of the stupid ones but mostly good questions
ode2adream: I do.
PHChristy: puppy buyers never ask about anything
PHMowgli: bossanova it is getting less and less yearly
bossanovabassets: I wish it were so in my breed....
lhczth: I do, but it has ti be done in a way that doesn't make them defensive.
PHChristy: I am constantly trying to talk people out of breeding
PHMowgli: no christy but just getting them to ask some of the improtant stuff is great
BostonRot_nr: Ugh, I disconnected myself, sorry
PHMowgli: Welcome to Breeders Chat!!! Tonights Topic is Pre Breeding Testing!!!
PHChristy: in this chat LOL
bossanovabassets: They get totally p....... when I won't breed my stud dog to their girls.
PHMowgli: hey smooth
BostonRot_nr: I find some puppy buyers are asking abou health
BostonRot_nr: mostly the standard hips, and now some are learning to ask about elbows
travlinpom_nr: I have spent hours trying to educate puppy buyers and they will without fail go to the nearest puppy mill, buy a puppy and then call me because the puppy is sick
BostonRot_nr: at least for the companion (pet) homes
PHMowgli: christy well yeah in the chats we do I meant On phone or in person not so much anymore
SmoothCollie_nr: Hi Mowgli
BostonRot_nr: Pom, we get so much of that too
PHMorgan: It doesn't take me hours - all I have to do is list the number of pointer breeders who still have 2 year old dogs from their LAST litter.... LOL
BostonRot_nr: they wonder why they buy a puppy for only $400-500 and then have major problems
PHMowgli: or trav do you get the it must be sable cause hte other colors are sick calls
bossanovabassets: The only puppy buyers I have had ask about health are those looking for a show puppy....
bossanovabassets: Mowgli.....we get those looking for the "rare" blue basset....the color most associated with health problems in bassets.
BostonRot_nr: what I am finding is that as cancer devistates our breed more and more, and more buyers are looking to replace a dog who died of CA, that they are asking about cancer in the lines
travlinpom_nr: Mow, i even get the ones that INSIST they want a white pom . . . i tell them that a well bred white pom is going to cost them about $1500, of course they want a bitch too . . . good luck with that
lhczth: I get a lot of people that contact me for puppies because they have had health problems and/or temperament problems in the past.
PHMowgli: Welcome to Breeders Chat!!! Tonights Topic is Pre Breeding Testing!!!
Roslar_nr: Do you believe cancer runs in lines?
berta: I'm terrible as I probably ask more questions than they do
lhczth: Some people are learning to ask more questions.
PHMorgan: I think it does, in some lines and in some breeds
PHMowgli: trav yeah and they want to breed her to get their money back
BostonRot_nr: everyone I talk to seems to think so, and I know that in humans, breast CA definitely has familial properties
berta: ugh I guy I work with did that with his Lab and his wife told a friend of my she had bad hips'
Roslar_nr: I have yet to find a line in Rottweilers that has NOT had some form of cancer. So what do you do?
PHMowgli: the one call I got today flabbergassted me they wanted no contract no guarantee they will not sign a contract on a puppy that is theirs well of course my answer was it is not yours it is mine and it is staying mine and I hung up on them not very calm of me I know
berta: He said it would calm her down and make her a better dog
travlinpom_nr: Mow, White in poms is still pretty much a puppy mill color, very few reputable breeders are working with it, so the dogs are donkey eared and flat coated . . . and they will still pay $1500 for them
Kdobie_nr: my new dobe pup's grandfather has DCM
BostonRot_nr: very good question laura
Kdobie_nr: but they didn't know until he was older
berta: LOL Mow I turned down a sale for a very similar reason..... told them as long as she was mine I could do what I wanted too.
Kdobie_nr: he has a very mild case though, and is still living
BostonRot_nr: try to breed to lines that have a history (or direct history) of longevity
PHMowgli: trav I actually did not know poms came in white I thought those were toy american eskimos
PHMowgli: Wb borz
borzoid: ty
borzoid: lost my connection and couldn't get back in
BostonRot_nr: and try to breed to older studs as much as possible
bossanovabassets: Amazing that those old ideas still exist...like neutering a male ruins them....I'm still working on my dad on that one...won't neuter his pet pug......poor qualtiy dog conformation wise.
BostonRot_nr: hehehe, as I plan to breed to a 2yr old
PHMowgli: Welcome to Breeders Chat!!! Tonights Topic is Pre Breeding Testing!!!
travlinpom_nr: Mow, yep we have white, and a couple breeders doing pretty well with it, but the consistency of quality isnt there yet
Roslar_nr: But what do you consider longevity? 10 ? 11? Older?
SamsSammy: Hey! Wait a minute Mow! I resemble that remark!
berta: my breed 13 to 15
bossanovabassets: What will next week's topic be??
BostonRot_nr: 10 is pretty damn good these days
PHMowgli: well see trav andhowmany others are like me and would think they do not exists
PHMowgli: hey Sam that one woke you up LOL
bossanovabassets: 10-11 in bassets is getting up there.
BostonRot_nr: i am more trying to stay away from dogs who die of things at 6-8yrs (or at least the common cancers)
PHMorgan: Bossanoa - we are open to suggestions
PHMowgli: 12-15 shelties
PHMorgan: *BOssanova
BostonRot_nr: there are some very rare ones out there that seem to be freak things, but others like osteo, lympho, hemangio that i would prefer to stay away from
travlinpom_nr: Mow, had a dog excused from the AOAC class at Nationals . . . they insisted he was white, he was very definately cream, even light orange
Owleyes_nr: On one of my lists a vet wrote in that Iams Premium food increases litter size. Has anyone any comments on that?
BostonRot_nr: I also don't like lines with a lot of immune disorders, food allergies/IBD
bossanovabassets: Out Crosses vs. Line breeding or inbreeding....
Roslar_nr: I ask that, because Taylor's Dad just died of Osteo, but be was 11 when he was diagnosed.
PHMowgli: so trav they at not showable
bossanovabassets: Oh brother llowl eyes
BostonRot_nr: at 11, they're going to die of something
PHChristy: I don't ding for cancer at 11
Owleyes_nr: Have you tried it then?
BostonRot_nr: i'd be more worried if he died at 6 or 7 of osteo
travlinpom_nr: Mow, oh yes, they are showable and if he was white, he would have been in the correct class, but he was cream and should have been in ROCS
bossanovabassets: naw....just don't believe it.
berta: you don't ding?
PHMowgli: ah ok trav
BostonRot_nr: your thoughts L?
Roslar_nr: Very true Gretchen. And they're dying earlier than that. Remember Liz Lame?
BostonRot_nr: no
BostonRot_nr: sorry
Owleyes_nr: Why don't you believe it. Claims have been made that supeirior nutrition will increase litter size.
BostonRot_nr: i don't think that Iams is superior nutrition
bossanovabassets: Well....guess I don't believe that IAM's is superior..
Roslar_nr: Kimm McDowell's special in 2001. Was just 3 when she died of brain cancer. Out of Taz and a Cade daughter.
lhczth: But Iams isn't superior nutrition
SamsSammy: Well, that would be great! My problem may be the day of the week. Mondays are now out too. that only leaves Tuesdays!
Owleyes_nr: What is wrong with Iams?
SamsSammy: OOPS! Sorry abt that!
SamsSammy: Oh Great! A Neophite show dog host!
SamsSammy: Sorry guys. My dog whisperer is off!
bossanovabassets: IAM's might have been better at one time...but I believe it is now owned by Proctor and Gamble...compare the nutritional content to other foods out there......
berta: lol
BostonRot_nr: ok, yes I do reember that
Owleyes_nr: and what did you find when you compared them?
BostonRot_nr: to me, that is one of the rare freak cancers
berta: brb
ode2adream: There are far better foods.
Owleyes_nr: What food is beter?
PHMowgli: Welcome to Breeders Chat!!! Tonights Topic is Pre Breeding Testing!!!
ode2adream: I perfer food with no by-products.
travlinpom_nr: Owl, as a rule of thumb, if you can buy it at the grocery store or Wal-Mart, it probably isnt a "premium" food
BostonRot_nr: me too Ode
Roslar_nr: Possibly Gretchen.
ode2adream: exactly travlin!
bossanovabassets: I feed Nutro...spent a great deal of time talking to reps....I also cook for one of mydogs who has special needs.
PHMowgli: WB christy
BostonRot_nr: I can probably count on one hand the number of tumoers I've heard of (primary tumors) that involve the CNS
PHChristy: thanks!
Owleyes_nr: Why would you think that it makes it inferior where it is sold?
PHMowgli: owl for one the shelf life must last a long time
ode2adream: because he seller is more intrested in the all mighty dollar then the quality of food.
BostonRot_nr: Owleyes, it's inferior to me b/c of what is in it. Mostly grains, meat by-products
PHMorgan: OK - we didnt get any suggestions for a topic - come on folks -this is your cha t- what do we want to discuss?
bossanovabassets: Make sure when you look at the nutritional conten of a food that what you are seeing is guaranteed output....some food list nutritional make up as what goes into the food not what is left after processing.
travlinpom_nr: Owl, a premium food obviously costs more, so grocery stores and walmart dont carry them,
BostonRot_nr: I want to see meats, not by-products, and I want to see at least 2 sources listed in the first 4 ingred.
bossanovabassets: I suggested....inbreeding vs. outcrossing vs. line breeding.
Roslar_nr: brb--gotta feed dogs.
PHMowgli: Welcome to Breeders Chat!!! Tonights Topic is Pre Breeding Testing!!!
ode2adream: I like Boss's idea
bossanovabassets: I don't want to see any corn in the food.
Owleyes_nr: So if i can get the same feed cheaper at a discount store than a pet store it is no good?
BostonRot_nr: me either....no corn, no wheat
ode2adream: I get mine from a feed store.
PHMowgli: I am thinking morgan
PHMorgan: Sorry - bossanova - Missed it
lhczth: No corn, wheat, soy, beat pulp.........
bossanovabassets: LOL no prob..
PHMorgan: I think we did that recently....
travlinpom_nr: Owl, no . . . if the grocery store carries it, it probably isnt a high quality food
BostonRot_nr: Owl, i thsa NOTHING to do with the price, it's the ingredients. Cheap, crap ingredients = lower price and higher volume sales
PHMorgan: We could discuss feeding our breeding stock -sounds like a hot topic
PHMorgan: Supplements, foods, vitamins, etc.
BostonRot_nr: Boss, I like your idea too
PHMorgan: Herbal supplements
travlinpom_nr: BRB
PHMowgli: oh great idea morgan
BostonRot_nr: there are MANY who feel that tight linebreeding/inbreeding has no placein Rotts
BostonRot_nr: i know other breeds where they're common and almost expected
bossanovabassets: Morgan....sounds like a good topoc topic to me too....
bossanovabassets: Right Rot....that's why i think it is an intersting topic.
BostonRot_nr: how many of you give daily supplements?
SamsSammy: My computer is so security tight, I don't think it could even pass gass! I'll probably use another less secure computer in the house for the application.
PHMorgan: OK got that Christy?
PHMorgan: The topic?
PHChristy: got it!
PHMorgan: (Christy is Topic Queen)
PHMorgan: :-)
bossanovabassets: I give glucosamine/ chjrondroiton/ and show down
SamsSammy: Sorry folks! I think I'd best take lessons!
PHMowgli: ok food and supplements is next weeks topic?
lhczth: Which one? inbreeding or feeding?
SmoothCollie_nr: oops sorry
BostonRot_nr: ok, food and supps for next week :)
SmoothCollie_nr: .
bossanovabassets: oh, and MSM
lhczth: THAT may probe to be a very HOT topic. :)
PHChristy: Feeding for Breeding
lhczth: prove
PHChristy: I'll call it
PHMowgli: and breeding the next week right?
PHMowgli: hey briar
bossanovabassets: sounds good to me..
briarclifftzus: hi
PHMowgli: Welcome to Breeders Chat!!! Tonights Topic is Pre Breeding Testing!!!
PHChristy: :D
briarclifftzus: ty
briarclifftzus: good topic
PHChristy: and of course I'll have plenty to say, considering it's my favorite topic
PHMorgan: OH good Name, Christy!
PHMorgan: I like that
PHMorgan: Yummy rhymes
bossanovabassets: Gotta go feed the dogs........hopefully I'll make it next week.
PHMorgan: :-)
lhczth: Chrisy, Feeding or breeding?
lhczth: Christy (sorry, I can't type tonight).
PHChristy: Feeding!
BostonRot_nr: I must head to bed
PHChristy: LOL
BostonRot_nr: Nite all!
PHChristy: goodnight!
berta: you know feeding will end up kibble or raw
BostonRot_nr: Will look forward to next week :)
jaymesferrealz: theres so many messageboards and sections to the pethobbyist site. you can almost get lost sometimes
PHMorgan: OK folks I'm off to feeding the pointers
PHMorgan: XOXO
borzoid: Nite Boston
PHMorgan: See ya'll next week
PHChristy: goodnight everyone!
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