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Transcript: Dog Breeding Chat Tuesday, March 30, 2004: Weaning Our Puppies PHMorgan: OK - so, let's get to our topic! greyhoundloser_nr: Thx all greyhoundloser_nr: appreciate it PHChristy: good luck! PHMorgan: We've delivered our pups, and gotten through the first week or two, and now they are draining MOmdog right and left PHMorgan: She is eating you out of house and home and they are beginning to show some interest in HER food bowl Bert_nr: Are you supplementing? PHMorgan: How many of you have seen mom allow pups to eat from the bowl? How many have momdog GUARDIng her bowl from the babies? Bert_nr: Oops Bert_nr: I've had both PHMorgan: (I will sometimes supplement if there is a smaller pup or if the litter is large) PHMorgan: Me too, Bert PHMorgan: Some moms will share, others won't. Z doesn't share AT ALL. PHMorgan: MINE MINE MINE PHMorgan: Solo will gladly share PHMorgan: She will even step back and wiat for the pups to get their fill, then clean up the rest Bert_nr: I let the dam decide when to shut them off PHChristy: Hello harv! Welcome to Dog Breeding Chat! Our topic tonight is "Weaning Our Puppies." Bert_nr: Since i feed raw I had to shut mom OUT when starting the pups on real food PHChristy: harv, I got your photo, I will have them make it into an icon ASAP! PHChristy: Hello Rueger! Welcome to Dog Breeding Chat! Our topic tonight is "Weaning Our Puppies." harvbeck: hi all Rueger: hey all harvbeck: thats great christy Rueger: Christy when will my photo get made into an avatar? PHChristy: Rueger, good question, I'll check! PHMorgan: HIya, REuger, Harv PHChristy: OK... weaning.... PHMorgan: So, at what age does everyone start pups on food? Rueger: I do about 4 weeks starting with baby cereal PHChristy: When I first stated naturally rearing my pups, I would start them on a mush of goat's milk, honey, chamomile tea, and slippery elm, recommended by Juliette de Bairacli Levy, at 4 weeks of age PHChristy: then later add a bit of soaked oats Bert_nr: My bitches usually start shutting down production at around 4 to 5 weeks. PHMorgan: I usually start around 4 weeks PHChristy: I always let the bitch nurse them as long as she wants, normally 12 week sor so PHMorgan: And I just use goat's mlik and regular pupppy kibble Bert_nr: Yes Christy mine too. PHMorgan: I don't usually mess around with rice cereal or anything else PHMorgan: Mine dive in and eat like there is no tomorrow PHChristy: but I later read some of gastroenterologist Donald Strombeck DVM PhD's writings on weaning.... Bert_nr: I started my last pups on chick necks at 3 1/2 weeks Rueger: mine always start on a baby cereal but then again I have little pups LOL PHChristy: he recommends holding off on foreign proteins as long as possible, preferably 6 weeks if you can PHMorgan: I don't ever prevent my bitch from feeding puppies, either, Christie PHChristy: because the intestinal mucosa of the puppy is not mature until then PHChristy: and those proteins can "leak" through and potentially cause problems with the immune system Bert_nr: How many of you have had a bitch recycle her dinner for her pups PHChristy: he acknowledges that very large litters and very large breeds probably can't go until 6 weeks Rueger: bert some of my girls do some don't but I let those who want to PHChristy: but I've seen deerhounds go almost to 5 weeks with no problem PHChristy: that is 5 weeks on nothing but mother's milk PHChristy: I think a lot of the mothers start getting dragged down about 3-4 weeks, but that's when I start feeding MOM, instead of feeding the pups PHChristy: then Dr. Strombeck suggests that we expose them only to one food item at a time Bert_nr: I had one bitch the the pups were running down in the yard to nurse...... I'd tell her to RUN !! PHMorgan: I have had bitches regurgitate PHChristy: they recommend this for human babies too PHMorgan: Yes, I don't start pups before 4 weeks PHChristy: not one food PRODUCT, such as kibble, but one food ITEM, such as just chicken or just goat's milk or just beef etc PHMorgan: I don't think they need it yet, and I like that momdog will clean up until they are on food, so I put it off PHChristy: and then a week or so later, add another PHMorgan: None of my momdogs will clean up the box after I start on regular food PHChristy: Morgan, I've noticed that as well! Bert_nr: Mine either Morgan PHChristy: I think there is a lot of merit to what Dr. Strombeck says PHMorgan: My pups are usually started on goat's milk at SOME point during the first few weeks for any kind of supplementing, so adding the kibble isn't much PHChristy: I do think a lot of the common health problems we see in dogs, esp allergies and GI problems, have their root in inappropriate weaning, which is really rampant in this country Rueger: I agree christy and my mom dogs do clean up after pups till they are eating a regular meal with all types of foods PHChristy: I shudder when I see breeders who force-wean their litters PHChristy: who BRAG about having their bitches totally gone from the litters by 4 weeks Bert_nr: Not me by pups stay for 10 to 12 weeks Rueger: Christy I was looking at a puppy 2 yrs ago but at 3 weeks they took mom away and gave the pups just moist kibble to eat no more milk or even goats milk for pups from then on Bert_nr: With mom grandmom and whoever else lives here PHChristy: Rueger, it just makes me sad to hear that PHChristy: I hear it all too foten Rueger: ha ha I have 7 mth olds still with mom LOL PHChristy: often PHChristy: I can spell, honest Rueger: the girls only I had to take the boys away for fear of their sisters coming into heat LOL PHMorgan: I cannot imagine having my bitch sit around all swollen and full of milk Bert_nr: Well whoever stays is ALWAYS with mom etc. lol PHChristy: Yeah, I always wonder what people mean when they say the dogs won't "bond" with you if you don't separate them, I've had dogs who NEVER separted from their mothers, who bonded just fine! PHMorgan: Having gone through that myself, it is EXCRUTIATING PHChristy: Morgan, I bet! PHMorgan: I think mom serves an important role in socializing and training pups even past the time of nursing Rueger: me too Christy and my mom dogs housebreak the pups for me this way too LOL PHChristy: Whenever someone asks me how to dry a bitch up, I say.... she'll dry up when the little monsters get big enough, just let them nurse! PHChristy: Morgan, I agree completely! PHMorgan: My momdogs do quite a bit of comforting, disciplining and supervising PHChristy: Morgan, LOL, weren't we supposed to disagree? PHMorgan: I do cut back on momdog's food when pups are beginning on food, but I still allow her to have free access PHMorgan: Z is back to 2 meals a day (twice her normal) instead of 3X PHChristy: last night when we were talking, you said you assumed we'd wean really differently.... what were you thinking I would recommend? I'm just curious! PHMorgan: Next week I will cut her back to 1 1/2 PHMorgan: I assumed we'd disagree on WHAT to feed, which we do PHChristy: ah PHMorgan: I'm not into complicated concotions Rueger: LOL PHChristy: actually, my "concoction" is less complicated than yours Bert_nr: What's complicated?? PHChristy: since what I said is, no "concoctions," use a single food item PHMorgan: Altho I do also add yogurt every day and later I will sometimes add chicken broth as I wean the pups from goat's mlik PHMorgan: That is too complicated for me PHMorgan: I just stir it all together and put down a dish PHChristy: I don't understand PHChristy: how can one ingredient be MORE complicated than more than one? Bert_nr: I don't either PHChristy: I'm lost Rueger: morgan your food is more complicated than mine I use a box of gerber baby cereal with goats milk that is it LOL Bert_nr: Thats' two things I use one PHMorgan: What I meant was changing every week PHChristy: you don't change every week PHMorgan: I just give them the same stuff every time, and then later get rid of teh goat's milk Bert_nr: Changing?? PHChristy: I think you misunderstood Bert_nr: Is she talking about raw feeding?? PHChristy: what Dr. Strombeck says, is to wean them onto ONE food item... whatever it is.... PHChristy: chicken OR beef OR egg OR goat's milk or whatever. Just ONE THING, not a mixture of things PHMorgan: Christy said she gives a mush of goat's milk, honey, chamomile tea and slippery elm PHChristy: IF you add more ingredients, wait a week. But you dont' have to. PHMorgan: That's complex PHMorgan: LOL PHChristy: Morgan, I said that's what I USED TO do PHMorgan: OH PHMorgan: See? now we are ALL confused PHMorgan: LOL PHChristy: but now I follow Dr. Strombeck's recommendation PHMorgan: GOTCHA PHMorgan: NOw, one thing I do specifically with every litter Rueger: yep I am confused PHMorgan: The pups get about 5-10 minutes to eat, then I let momdog in to clean up PHMorgan: They are all eating from the same dish and they get a very short time to eat it PHChristy: I do think slippery elm is excellent to have on hand in case there is any digestive upset, for puppies or grownups. But I dont' feed it routinely anymore. PHMorgan: I find that makes them eat promptly and fosters good eating habits as adults PHChristy: LOL, I've never had to time them PHMorgan: Many pointers are very poor eaters and are easily distracted from their food PHChristy: they plow through it as fast as you could want PHMorgan: Especially as adolescents PHChristy: and then they roll off on their bloated bellies, potty, and crash PHChristy: nothing is cuter than a stuffed pupper PHMorgan: I find making them eat it RIGHT NOW instead of leaving it in there for an hour or so, makes them eat better Rueger: well I allow my pups about 30 min to eat as these little guys are notoriously slow at getting enough LOL PHChristy: do the rest of you have this problem? of puppies who aren't interested in food? PHMorgan: I haven't had a problem with any of my pups later as poor eaters, but some folks I've spoken to say they almost FREE FEED pups, and THOSE pups often don't eat well PHMorgan: (as adults PHMorgan: My PUPPIES are all COMPLETE HOGS Bert_nr: Heck no mine are little pigs......... Rueger: nope my breed in general are picky eaters not that they dislike food they like to take a bite and come back 3 min later get another bite etc etc PHChristy: LOL Bert, I can just see the little rolly polly Sammy babies! PHChristy: Rue, is this Shelties or COllies or both? Rueger: I only have sheltie pups PHMorgan: Lots of adult and adolescent pointers are crumby eaters. I've NEVER had this problem. PHMorgan: Mine are HOGS Rueger: the collies are just pets to show LOL Bert_nr: The look like white rats when they're born then progress to white groundhogs PHMorgan: The hoover noises coming from my doggy room during supper are horrifying PHChristy: LOL PHChristy: I always say deerhound babies look like gophers, or possibly sea otters Rueger: well sheltie pups are just adorable LOL PHChristy: at some point they start to look like Labradors PHChristy: then one day they look really good, like beautiful whippets PHChristy: and then overnight they look horrible again, for about a year, LOL PHChristy: and then they're grown up and beautiful again Bert_nr: I always said if I ever got a BIG dog it would be a deerhound then some friends got one ... : -( PHChristy: Bert... what happened? why the sad face? PHMorgan: My pups generally look like mini adults from about 4-5 weeks on PHMorgan: They never quite look like babies after that Bert_nr: jealous Rueger: mine don't look like adults till about 10 weeks PHChristy: Morgan, the deerhounds grow their legs first PHChristy: kind of awkward and skinny and colitsh and uncoordinated PHMorgan: Vogue, my sick pup who lost some weight, looks like a teeny tiny pointer PHChristy: adorable PHChristy: but not what you'd call beautiful Rueger: oh how cute morgan PHMorgan: Her littermates look like guinea pigs on stilts Bert_nr: Actually what I've noticed with rawfed is that they don't have that "puppy" look. They do look more like minature adults. PHChristy: LOL PHMorgan: She is extremely cute PHMorgan: And now she's very spoiled and wants to sleep in MY BED PHChristy: Bert, I know what you mean PHMorgan: I took her upstairs last night after she ate because I wanted her in a basket with the hot water bottle.... I put the laundry basket next to my bed and she proceeded to climb into bed with me PHChristy: LOL Morgan PHChristy: OMG Rueger: Bert I agree except we still have to wait for ears to raise and stuff to make them look like adults LOL PHChristy: that is too cute Bert_nr: No pudginess and more cooridinated PHMorgan: Mind you, she weights 5 bls and still fits into my hand PHMorgan: It was quite a feat PHMorgan: Then I put her back into the basket (I didn't want to squish her) and she had a fit Bert_nr: My Sammies ears are normally up at 8 weeks PHMorgan: So Z (MOM) tucked her in and COVERED her with the blanket. It was very cute PHChristy: It doesn't apply to my breed, but I've heard from Dane and GSD breeders that their raw fed puppies' ears stand up better PHMorgan: I have heard that too Rueger: my one male is a great momma for sick babies LOL PHMorgan: Maybe seomthing in teh raw diet promotes strong cartilage PHChristy: we don't WANT our dogs' ears to stand up, LOL PHChristy: Morgan, that's the theory PHChristy: I don't know what the truth is Bert_nr: Last litter one pup's one ear was still down so I shaved it and it popped up by that afternoon Rueger: christy I don't want mine to stand up completely either I need a 1/4 tip LOL PHChristy: LOL Rue PHChristy: Bert, what does shaving it do???? PHMorgan: Takes weight off the ear Rueger: lightens it so the ear will pop from no weight of hair PHMorgan: Belive it or not, the hair actually matters Bert_nr: The coat was very heavy on the ears and it took the weight off it PHMorgan: So Reguer just shaves teh bottom 1/2... LOL PHChristy: amazing PHChristy: deerhounds dont' have hair on their ears until they're older PHMorgan: Thank goodness mine have no issues like that PHChristy: they have a seal type coat PHChristy: at first PHMorgan: EHy - question for you guys PHMorgan: When can you usually find testicles? PHChristy: then later they grow in a second, longer, softer coat Rueger: mine are fuzzy coated LOL Rueger: Morgan normally 8 weeks for my breed PHChristy: a friend of mine found Bran's at 5 weeks PHChristy: I've NEVER found them that early on my own Bert_nr: I just evaluated a litter last week and found them PHChristy: but she showed me where they were and then I could feel them Rueger: if you can't find them at 8 weeks give it up for us PHMorgan: OK - so it's no big deal taht my 4 week boys have two balls between the three of them... PHChristy: Bert, how old where they? PHChristy: ROFL Morgan PHMorgan: Yeah, poor junior has none yhet PHMorgan: yet Bert_nr: oops they were 7 weeks we're actually doing it next weekend........ sneak preview PHMorgan: But he's so charming no one will mind PHChristy: I normally wouldn't even be looking at 4 weeks PHMorgan: I wasn't REALLY, just kinda checking PHMorgan: I looked at all mhy bites, too Rueger: me either christy i tend to start at 6 weeks though LOL PHMorgan: Those look great right now PHChristy: I once had a litter of 8 males PHChristy: and all but one puppy was entire Rueger: I can almost always find them at 6 weeks even though it is not always easy LOL PHChristy: and of course, it was the pick puppy PHChristy: I mean, isn't that the way it goes? Bert_nr: Do you use Pat Hastings puppy puzzle? Rueger: LOL PHChristy: Bert, no, although they are discussing it on one of my lists right now Rueger: bert I really want to hear about that PHMorgan: It's a great tool Rueger: you keep mentioning that and I know nothing about it PHChristy: I wanted to ask Pat Hastings to be a guest at our chat, but I was told that she doesn't do talks anymore, so I am pessimistic Bert_nr: She did a seminar here a couple years ago . Said it doesn't work with raw fed pups PHMorgan: Really helps you be objective about evaluating PHMorgan: WHY NOT? PHChristy: Bert, did she say WHY she thinks that? Bert_nr: She's doing her new book on DogRead in a couple months Bert_nr: They had done so many litters at various ages to determine the best age to evaluate PHChristy: yeah, I saw that Bert_nr: They found 8 weeks to be the optimum age EXCEPT with raw fed pups they didn't fit that pattern PHChristy: did she say what was the optimum age with raw fed pups? PHMorgan: What is best time for raw fed pups? PHMorgan: Christy - I must ask you to STOP READING MY MIND harvbeck: how much raw would they have gotten by 8 weeks Bert_nr: I know it the truth because I evaluted a litter 3 weeks ago at 8 weeks and YUCK........ again two week later at 10 weeks and you wouldn't believe the changes PHChristy: LOL Morgan, sorry, I'll try to turn down the psychic powers here PHChristy: harv, good question! Bert_nr: She didn't say. Stated she didn't believe in feeding raw. LOL PHChristy: oh well that's scientific Bert_nr: Eight weeks worth...... from mom and then from the time they're weaned PHMorgan: Good point, Bert! PHMorgan: LOL Rueger: yep too many biases in dogs LOL harvbeck: thats why.!! PHChristy: true, mother's milk certainly is raw, LOL PHChristy: I didn't think of that PHMorgan: I have to say, each litter I ahve had has looked BEST and MOST LIKE they have at adults at a slightly different age PHMowgli: Hi everyone Bert_nr: From what I saw in that 8 then 10 weeks old litter I would say 10 weeks for rawfed pups PHMorgan: Sometimes they are best at 5, or 6 or 7 weeks PHChristy: Hello Mowgli! PHChristy: interesting PHMorgan: That is not what I would have thought, Bert PHMowgli: did you all miss me? PHMorgan: Odd they they develop more slowly? harvbeck: hi mow PHMorgan: No, but I stole your chair PHChristy: I don't have any first hand knowledge, but I did hear from some poeople that Pat Hastings says we should not evaluate our own litters Bert_nr: Not Pat Hastings point. PHMorgan: : -[img id=em-5] PHMorgan: I always have a few other folks over to see them before I make my final decision Rueger: I do like to evalute my own litter then have others also and compare the notes LOL Bert_nr: What they found at 8 weeks she was certain is what they would be as adults. PHMorgan: There is always something I didn't see, altho I rarely change my chioce PHChristy: even with giants? PHMorgan: That has been MY experience, Christy - with giant litters I've evaluated Bert_nr: I do both my own and others and have others do mine PHMorgan: (there have been a few - two or three Dane litters, one saint litter and a mastiff litter) PHMorgan: NOt a ton of litters Rueger: I wonder how well it works with toy size dogs PHChristy: I am not that great with my own pups PHChristy: but I do feel quite confident with other people's Bert_nr: The one I lost young was great at 8 weeks and at 5 months her front went south........ very south PHChristy: I feel with deerhounds you just shouldn't look at them from 6 months to about a year and a half PHChristy: the smaller bitches that's not true Bert_nr: At 3 years she was beautiful again but it took her forever I started her on raw at 4 months PHMorgan: Well, I will say my Tucker is looking pretty horrible at 2 yaers and he was GORGEOUS at 8 weeks and 7 months.... PHChristy: the bigger dogs look just gorgeous at 6 months or so PHMorgan: I'm still waiting for him to get it together... LOL Rueger: see now in smaller breeds I have found that at 10 weeks other than bite and testicles what you see is pretty much what you get PHChristy: and then their legs grow and it's just horrible, LOL PHChristy: firs the rear legs, then they are high in the rear PHChristy: then the front legs catch up PHMorgan: Z at 6 months is EXACTLY what she was like at 3 PHChristy: then BOING the rear goes up again PHChristy: see saw see saw PHMorgan: EXACTLY PHChristy: ack PHMorgan: Solo aslso Bert_nr: Hastings says to look at them at 8 weeks and don't look again until 2 yearsrs PHMorgan: Scarlett was dead on at 6 months PHMorgan: Most of mine are PHChristy: I've had bitches, two now, finish at 9 months PHChristy: mother and daughter PHMorgan: Bert - that is not comforting PHChristy: both small, dead sounds, tight little bitches PHMorgan: Does this mean Tucker will be stilt boy forever? PHChristy: dead sound PHChristy: really, I need to tighten up my TYPING, LOL Rueger: Christy that is how the collies grow also Bert_nr: I've had two that grew apace........ never looked bad. PHChristy: Bert, I tend to think of breeds like yours as growing that way typically PHMorgan: Most of mine have grown very cleanly PHMorgan: I was aghast at Scarlett who was very oogy at 5-9 months PHMorgan: Butt higher than her HEAD Bert_nr: Then that girl that could gag a maggot from 6 months on Rueger: my dogs tend to grow slow and steady and never go off though (the shelties) PHMorgan: But now she looks GREAT PHChristy: Hi there Trav! Welcome to Dog Breeding Chat! Our topic tonight is "Weaning Our Puppies." Rueger: hi trav PHChristy: Trav, I'm glad you're here, to speak for the toy dogs... what age do you typically start giving food to your puppies? Bert_nr: I think I lost everyone again Rueger: nope I am here Bert_nr: Last time that happened I missed a bunch of chat that didn't come through is everyone talking? PHChristy: me too PHChristy: Bert, no PHChristy: we had a dead lull PHChristy: I was waiting to see if Trav answered travlinpom_nr: Christy, I let them try mom's food whenever they want to start Bert_nr: WOW talk about silence wwhen you enter the room PHChristy: Trav, how old do they normally want to start? PHChristy: LOL Bert PHChristy: when Trav talks, people listen! Rueger: LOL travlinpom_nr: Christy, hmmm, maybe four or five weeks Rueger: EFtrav LOL PHChristy: that sounds about right PHChristy: LOL PHChristy: well, folks, what shall our topic be for next week? travlinpom_nr: weaning puppies??? ROFL . . . guess i got here a bit late . . . PHMorgan: Trav - too bad too -you missed juice and cookie time PHMorgan: : -) Rueger: how about placing puppies? Rueger: or maybe contracts? PHMorgan: I think we did that recently PHChristy: we did placing puppies recently Rueger: oh ok I can't keep up LOL travlinpom_nr: Can I brag quickly about a new litter???? PHChristy: Contracts was 14 months ago PHChristy: YES YES Pom! Rueger: blk and tan I hope travlinpom_nr: My "Sing" free whelped THREE puppies last sunday!!!! two girls and one boy PHMorgan: Let's talk about kennel management - training, socializing, clean-up, keeping dogs (crates, yards, kennels) Rueger: colors? Rueger: oh good one morgan Bert_nr: Let's hear it for the girls PHMorgan: Wow - congrats, POm, that's a nice sized litter! PHChristy: Morgan, that sounds good travlinpom_nr: the boy will be clear orange, the girls orange sable PHChristy: OMG Pom, that's wonderful CONGRATULATIONS!!! Rueger: congrats trav PHMorgan: "OMG I have 100 dogs what do i DO with them ALL?" PHChristy: LOL Morgan PHChristy: ok, well I've got that for the topic PHChristy: and I'll do last week and this week's transcripts, I just didn't want to work yesterday travlinpom_nr: Morgan, yes it is. I'm very pleased about it . . . mom and puppies are doing well so far . . . 3 ozs, 4 ozs and the MONSTER 4-1/2 ozs Bert_nr: Wow is our hour done already?? PHChristy: Bert, yes, but now we change to showdog chat
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