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Transcript: Dog Breeding Chat Tuesday, May 17, 2005: Outside Opinions PHChristy: Welcome to Dog Breeding Chat! Our topic tonight is "Outside Opinions: Do We Listen To Handlers About our Breeding Program Direction?" PHChristy: I guess it's something Morgan has been seeing more of lately PHMowgli: and even then I am pretty opinionated myself and tend to do what I want LOL PHChristy: and I can see it, that a handler might advise a client that "try to get more side gait" or "more coat" or "prettier heads" or whatever PHChristy: "I'd love to handle this dog but with a better tail set" PHChristy: that kind of thing PHMowgli: but a handler is intent on what is going to win and that is often not even what the standard requires but alas that is another topic LOL ode2adream: very true Mow travlinpom_nr: I think you have to look at who the handler is . . . you know some of us are also breeders PHChristy: I can't see how a handler can have an educated understanding of a breed, its standard, its history, and its current state unless it's their breed, too PHChristy: Travlin, exactly PHMowgli: Trav yes and I said at beginning a breeder yes but not just a handler PHChristy: if it's the handler's breed then I'd listen to them just as much as I would if they were not a handler curliousCresteds: hi reggie PHChristy: hi, reggie! Welcome to Dog Breeding Chat! Our topic tonight is "Outside Opinions: Do We Listen To Handlers About our Breeding Program Direction?" PHMowgli: hi reggie reggie73: i have to listen to other people - i dont know anything yet - lol PHChristy: if a handler came to me with a comment on my dog, or my lines, I'd listen to them, but how much it would influence me woudl depend on their background and level of knowledge PHChristy: LOL reggie curliousCresteds: haha me too reggie, thats why im not jumping into breeding on my own yet PHMowgli: Christy I think the topic itself opens us to a lot of speculation which can fuel a great fued tonight LOL travlinpom_nr: You can listen to your handler and still breed for the things that he/she is not concerned with . . . you can still breed for a sound dog . . . but be aware that huge coats are winning in the ring reggie73: i just cant seem to get away from conflicting information ode2adream: I am open and eager to learn. But I also have my own desires and opinions on what I want to see in my dog(s)/breeding program. ode2adream: Not that I have one yet:P *lol* PHChristy: I was commenting to a friend in another breed the other day, that while I always seek advice from those I think of as mentors about MY breeding program, I never seem to have a problem coming up with an opinion on what other people need to do in theirs, LOL PHChristy: reggie, that's the nature of life curliousCresteds: haha christy PHMowgli: heck christy give me an opinion on mine LOL PHChristy: learning to evalute the information we receive is part of being successful at navigating EVERYTHING... our careers, our health, our dogs' health reggie73: i have run into so many people who have given me wrong advice - crossing patterns for example ode2adream: very true PHChristy: LOL Mow, I meant in my own breed PHChristy: reggie, yes, but that's something you should be able to figure out somewhat by observation as well as asking opinions PHMowgli: Darn christy LOL reggie73: anybody in here a dachshund breeder? PHMowgli: hey smooth PHChristy: Hi, SmoothCollie! Welcome to Dog Breeding Chat! Our topic tonight is "Outside Opinions: Do We Listen To Handlers About our Breeding Program Direction?" ode2adream: Hiya Smooth:) PHChristy: reggie, not me, I breed Scottish Deerhounds SmoothCollie_nr: Hello.... PHMowgli: shelties here reggie PHChristy: folks, if your name doesn't tell the tale, please identify your breeds if you don't mind :) travlinpom_nr: Pomeranians here reggie73: are there lethal genes in every breed? ode2adream: collie PHMowgli: ode smooth is in Ohio also PHChristy: reggie, I don't know for sure, but I'd guess so. curliousCresteds: i dont think so Reggie travlinpom_nr: regiie, are you talking about merle? PHMowgli: hi raindance PHChristy: but I think they are more common in some breeds PHChristy: hi, RaindanceIGs! Welcome to Dog Breeding Chat! Our topic tonight is "Outside Opinions: Do We Listen To Handlers About our Breeding Program Direction?" ode2adream: Oh really? SmoothCollie_nr: ode> you are in Ohio? RaindanceIGs: Hello ode2adream: Yes! PHChristy: there can be lethal genes that are unique to that pairing, without having to be something "breed related" PHMowgli: yep and of course she also has collies LOL reggie73: the dapple gene can be lethal when crossed with another dapple - i had one breeder tell me that he does it all of the time because he gets more money for the double dapple puppies ode2adream: in southern ohio...about a hour south of columbus PHChristy: my knowledge of color genetics is around zero, because in deerhounds, we breed the grey ones to the grey ones and get grey ones SmoothCollie_nr: ode> LOL I am in Southern Ohio as well... about an hour southeast of Columbus LOL PHMowgli: also there are lethal genes in some breeds that associate with color only like a lethal gray collie PHChristy: Hi Sams! Welcome to Dog Breeding Chat! Our topic tonight is "Outside Opinions: Do We Listen To Handlers About our Breeding Program Direction?" PHMowgli: hey Sam PHChristy: Hi windspirit! Welcome to Dog Breeding Chat! Our topic tonight is "Outside Opinions: Do We Listen To Handlers About our Breeding Program Direction?" PHMowgli: hey wind curliousCresteds: at least we're getting lots of people in here PHChristy: windspirit, we are polling on what breeds people have if you feel like sharing. :) SamsSammy: Hi, everyone. PHChristy: I'm going to guess Sams has Samoyeds... am I close? windspirit: Hi Everyone
PHChristy: and Raindance... I'll go out on a limb that you have Italian Greyhounds
PHMowgli: reggie so the dapple gene is like the merle gene in shelties and collies when you create a homogynous dapple you can get defects
RaindanceIGs: That is correct :)
windspirit: poodles and Pharaoh hound
PHChristy: Raindance, I have a friend who breeds both Deerhounds (my breed) and iggies
reggie73: yes and they will throw only dapple pups
SamsSammy: Christy, don't forget Esky...!
PHChristy: Sams, do you have an Esky??
PHMowgli: that is a toy eskie Sam LOL
reggie73: i have been looking at other breeders websites and am amazed at how much they cross patterns - dapple to piebald - dapple to brindle - double dapple to dapple - it is crazy
RaindanceIGs: What's her kennel name?
SamsSammy: Yep0...a toy.
PHChristy: Rain, she breeds deerhounds as Windshift, and I think she uses that for her Iggies also
PHChristy: Sally Poole is her name
RaindanceIGs: yes, she uses Windshift in IGs also
SamsSammy: Because it's a toy...it doesn't count?
RaindanceIGs: I do not know her personally
PHMowgli: no Sam just wanted Christy to know it is a little dog not one of them biggens LOL
windspirit: lol I've found toys to be more trouble than the big ones
PHChristy: I find it hard to imagine having toys living with giants
SamsSammy: I wouldn't call any Eskie big...after Boo.
PHChristy: So, back to our topic.... who DO you listen to about your breeding program?
PHMowgli: true Sam LOL
PHMowgli: vets and other breeders here
PHChristy: if not handlers... other breeders? a specific mentor? how about a judge if it was a judge you respected?
PHChristy: vets???
PHChristy: I can't imagine listening to a vet LOL
RaindanceIGs: I think the most important thing to keep in mind would be the general description of the breed in the standard, which defines breed type
PHChristy: abou tmy breeding program
PHMowgli: and to be perfectly honest usually not breeders of my breed but closely related breds
SamsSammy: Hmmm...Hard to breed herre with two males.
PHChristy: Raindance, that's my feeling, that handlers just can't understand our standards.
curliousCresteds: I wouldnt listen to a vet other than health-related issues, my vet had never seen a crested before mine
RaindanceIGs: so many people in my breed are obsessed with breeding very stocky dogs with massive bone
RaindanceIGs: it says very clearly, OF IDEAL ELEGANCE AND GRACE
RaindanceIGs: it is not confusing
PHMowgli: Christy you do though really cause you may take a vets advice and do a surgical AI some day that type of vet listening I meatn LOL
RaindanceIGs: and there are very few elegant dogs out there
ode2adream: lol
PHChristy: Raindance, are they doing it in the hope it will minimize broken bones or some other reason?
RaindanceIGs: lots of smooth fox terriers in the IG ring
ode2adream: welcome back, Smooth!
PHChristy: SmoothCollie, welcome back!
PHChristy: Mowgli, now I understand
PHMowgli: WB smooth
RaindanceIGs: There is nothing wrong with the bone density of the breed, but a long skiny bone will break more easily than a short thick bone
SmoothCollie_nr: sorry hit the wrong button LOL
ode2adream: *lol*
SmoothCollie_nr: Ode> what bloodlines do you have?
PHMowgli: yeah I did not mean he could pick what stud to use just if my bitch is healthy to be bred
PHChristy: Raindance, why do you think this is happening in your breed, then? Just misguided?
RaindanceIGs: I think people are trying to breed the 'generic' show dog
PHMowgli: Rain I think that is a problem in all breeds
PHChristy: It's funny, on one hand I usually am more "pro-vet" than most, and yet I have zero respect for them as far as breeding goes... unless they are breeders themselves it's like they are just clueless
RaindanceIGs: all breeds look almost the same lately
PHMowgli: Christy and some of the breeder vets are worse cause they have that breed bias thing going
PHChristy: Raindance, that's a pretty major problem, but in some breeds it's much worse than others
PHMowgli: one vet up here for example thinks only hunting dogs should be bred ever
PHChristy: I can see that handlers would want that, though, because all they want is to win
PHChristy: hi doc! Welcome to Dog Breeding Chat! Our topic tonight is "Outside Opinions: Do We Listen To Handlers About our Breeding Program Direction?"
PHMowgli: howdy doc
RaindanceIGs: so all in all, I think it is most important to really read and know the standard and decide in your head what your 'ideal' would be, and pay little or no attention to the big winning dogs with loads of money behind them
windspirit: my vet wants a pup
PHChristy: LOL Raindance, easy enough in my breed since there aren't any
windspirit: and his assistant already has one.
PHChristy: I still think that there is great value in getting expert outside opinions
RaindanceIGs: the dogs winning a lot in my breed are better off in the smooth fox terrier ring
PHChristy: we can all use a fresh perspective
PHMowgli: wind my vet has 2 f my pups LOL
PHChristy: but not all opinions are equally valuable, or even valuable at all
PHMowgli: some are plain malicious
RaindanceIGs: loads of bone, extremely incorrect sidegait (though dead sound, but who cares how sound if the sidegait is horrid), and generally huge
PHChristy: "Never attribute to malice that which can more accurately be attributed to stupidity." LOL
thedoc617: i really wouldn't know about any of this... i'm just here for the love :)
windspirit: I'm not sure you can go by the most winning dogs..depends on how much money the owner is willing to put into showing
PHMowgli: remember some of the people we think we can trust are our competition in the ring and the whelping box
curliousCresteds: haha doc me too
PHChristy: we don't have big winning dogs and no one spends much money campaigning a deerhound, so we really don't have that "popular sire" type problem in our breed
windspirit: someone else may have a great dog but not able to show as often
PHChristy: in fact, the big winning dogs often are LESS likely to be used
thedoc617: we did groom a pregnant poodle today, on the topic of breeders. She was due in 2 weeks, and she looked like she was about to pop! sweet dog, though.
RaindanceIGs: We have some pretty big popular sire problems here
PHChristy: because we perceive their owners as being kind of "not one of us" if they show too much
RaindanceIGs: one breeder somehow thought it was smart to take the top producing sire of all time and breed it to the same bitch 8 times
PHMowgli: huge popular sires in my breed
RaindanceIGs: and put loads of pups in show homes
PHChristy: Raindance, yeah, I've heard that from Karen and Keisha over on the DogBreeding yahoogroup
RaindanceIGs: so now theres like 40 littermates being actively used in the gene pool..
PHChristy: of course, our gene pool and numbers are both so small that we're in that boat without even trying
PHMowgli: geez rain only 40 heck we get that in one state not to mention the whole dang country LOL
RaindanceIGs: well that is huge for the ig gene pool!!!
PHChristy: we only register about 125 pups a year in our breed
PHChristy: in the whole country
RaindanceIGs: IGs are one of the most popular breeds sold in petstores so we h ave a fair share of registrations
PHMowgli: Christy take a look at sheltie numbers one day it will scare the beegeezies out of you LOL
thedoc617: just thought i'd pop in and out (computer's giving me trouble) best be out before it completely goes dead
curliousCresteds: im not sure what crested registration numbers are like, higher than 125 though due to puppymills and stuff
PHChristy: ok doc, see you soon! I hope!
PHMowgli: nite doc
RaindanceIGs: My other breed is dobes, they have loads of problems
thedoc617: before I go, though. Mow, the sheltie rescue was at Petco when I was working on sunday. WOW! never seen so many shelties in my life! It made me think of you
PHChristy: I have always felt that popularity is a terrible curse on a breed, or being incredibly cute as a puppy
PHMowgli: ha ha doc did yo uhave fun?
curliousCresteds: yes go for the ugly puppies!
PHChristy: fortunately, deerhounds are not popular and while *I* think they are darling as puppies, it's a minority opinion
curliousCresteds: My mom was almost convinced to get a tibetian mastiff when we saw 3 puppies at a show on saturday
RaindanceIGs: people see IGs are small and shorthair and instantly get one
thedoc617: So much undercoat!!! (they had me bathe the 3 that got adopted that day!) Phew!
PHChristy: Pomeranians, they get a double whammy, don't they Trav? Cute as hell as pups, AND a toy breed
windspirit: I dont' think I've seen a deerhound up close
PHChristy: Curlious, oh my lord
PHMowgli: Christy I hate to sound nasty but I find deerhouds to have bad hair days perpetually
thedoc617: lots of people want them shaved for the summer, though
curliousCresteds: could you imagine my mom with a tibetian mastiff chelsea?
PHChristy: can you IMAGINE a worse breed for an impulse purchase?
PHChristy: LOL Mowgli
RaindanceIGs: Your mom wouldn't last a day!
PHMowgli: doc welcome to my world LOL
PHChristy: I think deerhounds are always wonderful and lovely
curliousCresteds: she woudlnt last 10 minutes!
PHChristy: I adore them
PHChristy: what can I say?
PHMowgli: no shaving ever on sheltie doc it humilitates them
travlinpom_nr: Christy, we are overloaded with Puppy mills in Poms . . . huge numbers of dogs coming into rescue
curliousCresteds: the puppies were really cute though, about 5 months old
PHChristy: Trav, it must be so heartbreaking
curliousCresteds: 2 boys and a girl, already like 50lbs at least
thedoc617: yes, I know. People think that they won't shed as much. We try to tell them that they'll shed like before, it's just the hairs will be really small shedded hairs... some people
PHChristy: some of the really big, hard to handle breeds are darling pups... Rotties, Mals, Akitas
RaindanceIGs: We get loads of IGs in rescue with broken legs that were never put in a cast
RaindanceIGs: people don't want to pay to fix them
PHChristy: all those roly poly bear-like pups
PHMowgli: trav I can see why every week at least 10 ads for poms even up here in the boonies
thedoc617: chows...
travlinpom_nr: Christy, the really disappointing part is that people still dont listen, they s till run to Petland and buy a puppy on the VISA card . . .
PHChristy: Raindance, Sally and I actually did a very heartbreaking rescue once, and there was a whippet with an unset broken leg that had healed sticking out to the side
PHChristy: this was from a collector. I would have been happy to strangle her
curliousCresteds: brb
RaindanceIGs: Actually the biggest fad in IGs is with the supposed "responsible" show breeders to try and set the leg themselves
RaindanceIGs: then half the time the dogs end up losing their leg
PHChristy: I wrote the whole thing up for the deerhound magazine, and she threatened to sue. I pointed out that the truth is a defense against libel or slander, and I had witnesses, including the sherrif, for every word I'd written
PHChristy: that shut her up
PHChristy: Hi, cntrstgpom! Welcome to Dog Breeding Chat! Our topic tonight is "Outside Opinions: Do We Listen To Handlers About our Breeding Program Direction?"
thedoc617: okay, before I go. (as long as my computer holds up) i have a question for you all
PHChristy: ok doc!
PHMowgli: go ahead doc
PHChristy: Rain, why do they think that's "responsible"?
thedoc617: Is there a law that states the age a breeder can give a litter away? (I heard some states have a law that they can't be under 8 weeks, but I dont know)
travlinpom_nr: what's up doc . . . . <<
RaindanceIGs: well there's nothing responsible about it, but these are the people that some people look up to
thedoc617: not a problem, travlin :)
RaindanceIGs: people with lots of winning dogs
PHChristy: there are laws that vary from state to state, but if you transport the pups across state lines, the federal law kicks in
PHChristy: federal law is, I believe, 8 weeks but it might be 7, both of which are too young
thedoc617: because it makes me sad to see in the papers 5-6 week old labs/goldens
PHChristy: Rain, do they have some kind of justification for this insanity?
travlinpom_nr: I know there are laws about selling at a certain age, but may be different in each state
PHChristy: doc, I think state law would be the one to check out for something like that
ode2adream: I'll be sure and watch. If you see a nakid rough..that'll be Kody. *rofl*
PHChristy: many states do have laws
PHMowgli: 8 weeks in Michigan
RaindanceIGs: any justification they might make, is not good enough
RaindanceIGs: if a dog breaks something, you have a vet fix it, period
thedoc617: that's true, very true. Thanks guys!
PHChristy: although frankly.... given that 8 weeks is too young, and that's the oldest I've ever heard of...
PHChristy: Rain, I agree, I'm just trying to understand how people can buy this, I was wondering what on earth they were saying
PHChristy: I mean, trust me, I go to the vet for EVERYTHING
PHChristy: hi hihope! Welcome to Dog Breeding Chat! Our topic tonight is "Outside Opinions: Do We Listen To Handlers About our Breeding Program Direction?"
travlinpom_nr: There is a pom "breeder" on line that has 18 puppies listed for sale that were all born about a week or two ago . . . yet she says they are 20 yrs in responsible breeding . . . has pics on the site of these newborns, and many are already sold
thedoc617: adios everybody!
PHMowgli: hi hihope
PHChristy: ask anyone, I'm the sole support of several vets
RaindanceIGs: I hve gotten to the point where I can recognize the vet techs by voice when I call the vet ;)
PHChristy: night doc!
windspirit: there are alot of books out there that say 6 wks. I think they are nuts.
PHChristy: trav, doesn't just make you want to absolutely SCREAM?
PHChristy: LOL, me too Rain, but it's worse, they recognize MY VOICE
RaindanceIGs: I usually hold onto my pups until about 11-12 weeks
PHChristy: Rain, 12 weeks is my minimum
curliousCresteds: I luckily havent had any major problems lately, had a lot awhile back with my one cat though
PHMowgli: Geez I have taken deposits on pups but nothing is ever sold till 10 weeks at earliest
PHChristy: and I have a crusade about too-early weaning
curliousCresteds: I think 11-12 weeks is good
PHChristy: I'm the kind of person who has strong opinions
RaindanceIGs: I think it is easiest on pup and new owner at that age
PHChristy: and that's one of them
travlinpom_nr: Christy, this one is one of the worst that i have seen because she knows all the right things to say . . . says her family has been showing for 20 yrs, etc . . . none of that is true . . . the puppies are horrible
RaindanceIGs: and my new policy will be that all pets will be spayed/neutered before they leave
PHChristy: Trav, I'm so sorry. I can only imagine how that must make you feel
curliousCresteds: I got my boy at 11.5 weeks, just young enough not to need his rabies shot to fly
RaindanceIGs: only way I can be sure they aren't breeding the dog..
cntrstgpom: trav, I think I know which site you're talking about, hehe
PHChristy: now see, Rain, this is one where I just can't do it... I can't tell if a dog is show/breeding quality that young.
travlinpom_nr: cntrst, have you looked at it? OMG!! I forget the person's name . . . Bushnell? Burnside? something with a B
RaindanceIGs: I don't really sell show prospects, so generally, it will be easy enough to tell the 1 or 2 worst puppies in the litter
PHChristy: Rain, we have a very high rate of showable in deerhound litters
cntrstgpom: yes, that's the one! Burnswood, or something like that, something with Burns
RaindanceIGs: oh you can finish anything in the IG ring
RaindanceIGs: can finish a 3 legged donkey in the ig ring
RaindanceIGs: owner handled
RaindanceIGs: in a year
RaindanceIGs: 'showable' means nothing hehe
windspirit: lol how may deerhounds bred a year?
PHChristy: unless a dog has a fault such as a short tail or monorchid.... I'd be hard pressed to want them neutered that young
travlinpom_nr: cntrstg, yes, that's the one, absolutely awful puppies and she has 20 of them advertised that were all born in the same week or so . . . . good lord!!!
hihopelabs_nr: Boy, I'm "lucky" that I got picked by a breed that is hard to finish
cntrstgpom: I was so tempted to write to them and pretend I was interested in a puppy, but wanted to see more proof that they actually show, lol
PHChristy: our gene pool is already very small, I hate to weed them out before we really know what they are, or what their sire or dam might go on to be
PHMowgli: me too hihope LOL
PHChristy: Raindance, however ... how is eliminating young dogs from the gene pool a good idea, if you are already having a genetic bottleneck in a breed?
RaindanceIGs: Generally by 12 weeks, I can have an idea of which pups are the best and which are never going to make it in the show ring, so at that point I might cut 25-50% of the litter
travlinpom_nr: cntrstg, i've been in showing for alot of years and never heard of them
RaindanceIGs: then hang onto the best ones for a little while longer
RaindanceIGs: I am a new breeder and honestly do not feel I am capable of mentoring a newcomer in breeding/showing
hihopelabs_nr: Can you do a google search on their names ?
RaindanceIGs: which is why i dont want to sell intact show dogs
RaindanceIGs: i will keep what i want for my self
RaindanceIGs: pet out the rest
PHChristy: I understand
PHMowgli: also the dogs that win in the ring may not be the best producers where a dog who is not bbest in ring produces awesome pups how can you know this?
PHChristy: hihope, which names did you mean?
RaindanceIGs: there are exceptions but at this time I'd rather see it in a good pet home if I am not keeping it
PHChristy: I have some homes that I like to place pups in
PHChristy: I dont' ship, so.... I keep an eye on everyone
hihopelabs_nr: Names of the pom folks that no one has heard of showing but claim they do ? wont infodog have their names up somewhere from a google search
cntrstgpom: Trav, they didn't even have any pics of parents on their site! Just the day old puppies that were for sale, lol. If they really did show, wouldnt they want people to see their breeding stock? lol
PHChristy: if they are "pet homes," I'd happily place a show dog and then show it myself
PHMowgli: Christy you movein for first 3 years of their life
PHChristy: esp a male
RaindanceIGs: I recently placed a boy pup in a home where I am allowed to show him and everything is done on my terms
PHChristy: "letting go" is not my best thing LOL
PHChristy: ask anyone who ever got a puppy from me
travlinpom_nr: cntrstg, and no pedigrees . . . not even the parents names . . .
RaindanceIGs: A friend of mine generally hangs onto about everything until at least 6 mos before she makes a decision
PHMowgli: Christy are their any people to ask?
RaindanceIGs: or maybe cuts the worst pups of the litter sooner
curliousCresteds: doesnt she have like 20 or something dogs though?
PHMowgli: there*
hihopelabs_nr: I've got a litter due this coming weekend.. I've already told 4 of the people getting pups that they dont want to be around me when they leave with a piece of my heart , soul. blood,sweat and tears
RaindanceIGs: Kathy - pat doesn't have that many
curliousCresteds: Karen's got a bunch though?
PHChristy: Mow, my past puppy buyers?
PHChristy: LOL hihope
travlinpom_nr: hihope, i KNOW that they dont show and do not do ANY of the stuff they are claiming on their site, dont need to look it up, it's one of those really obvious things . . . nasty quality puppies, huge numbers of puppies, no info on the site about sires/dams, etc
RaindanceIGs: Kathy you're probably thinking of my friend Kathy T
PHMowgli: yeah do they really exists Christy or are you just teasing us LOL
RaindanceIGs: who has.. like 30 dogs
PHChristy: LOL Mow, they exist
curliousCresteds: yea getting people mixed up lol
curliousCresteds: I never want to own 30 dogs
hihopelabs_nr: if I had 20 or 30 labs , I'd think I'd died and gone to Heaven
PHChristy: come to the deerhound list and see
cntrstgpom: Trav, I also think it's funny how at the bottom of their page it says how they're against puppy mills, lol!
PHChristy: or, more sadly, the Canine Cystinuria list :(
curliousCresteds: oh god i couldnt live with 30 labs
PHMowgli: ok Christy one more question about your puppy buyers then I will let it drop when do you let them out of the basement?
hihopelabs_nr: I'd never have a moments peace with 30 labs in the house LOL
curliousCresteds: I'll have that many this weekend at work, and thats nuts
PHChristy: bybs often know JUST what to say to "sound good"
PHChristy: ROFLMAO Mowgli
travlinpom_nr: cntrstg, and yet, folks are "ordering" puppies from them . . . It would take just a little research to know what was going on, but people dont bother
PHChristy: When I start my breeding program over (sigh) maybe I'll get "testimonials" from my past puppy buyers and put them on my website
curliousCresteds: travlin most people dont do research
PHMowgli: trav if they take credit cars it is good enough for many people
PHChristy: Mow, can you greet folks for a second? Nature is calling me
curliousCresteds: thats why pet stores are so popular
PHMowgli: sure
PHChristy: brb
PHMowgli: cards even LOL
PHMowgli: Welcome to Breeders chat Boss
bossanovabassets: Hi....
hihopelabs_nr: I cant even remember for the life of me ( without scrolling up LOL ) what the topic is tonight but I knew it was time for chat
curliousCresteds: its how outside oppinions influence your breeding
PHChristy: I'm back, thank you!
PHMowgli: Welcome to Dog Breeding Chat! Our topic tonight is "Outside Opinions: Do We Listen To Handlers About our Breeding Program Direction?"
curliousCresteds: if they influence them at all
PHChristy: hi there Jaime! Welcome to Dog Breeding Chat! Our topic tonight is "Outside Opinions: Do We Listen To Handlers About our Breeding Program Direction?"
windspirit: what i don't understand is why people pay big $$$ to buy not good dogs at petshops
JaimeMarie: hellow
PHChristy: the topic kind of fell by the wayside
bossanovabassets: They don't influence me much...I know what I like.
RaindanceIGs: Some people just have no clue
RaindanceIGs: a cousin of mine buys petstore dog after petstore dog, and she always has bad luck
curliousCresteds: People dont know they arent buying good dogs
PHChristy: bossanova, me too!
curliousCresteds: if it costs $1800, its gotta be good
PHChristy: Rain, that's not "luck" at that point
RaindanceIGs: her first petstore dog was some mutant dalmatian
RaindanceIGs: horrible temperament
cntrstgpom: Trav, and the LEAST I'd want to know is what the parent looks like, lol. They could be 20 lbs for all they know
PHMowgli: wind cause they can charge them and they get them Now not next month when a real breeder will allow them to leave or heck even next year for ethical breeders
travlinpom_nr: People think that AKC registration is a guarantee of quality
RaindanceIGs: and course she goes and buys a bunch of petstore dogs after that
hihopelabs_nr: Yup, I know what I like too and what I am working for BUT if a handler has had a dog that I'm inquiring about, they may have some information to share with me pertaining to the dogs offspring, illness' or genetic testing that isnt "public" on OFA
bossanovabassets: And I don't like the direction many basset breeders are going right now.....so I knowingly make it more difficult insome ways in the ring.
PHChristy: hihope, now that's a good point and one I hadn't considered
travlinpom_nr: cntrstg, i'm sure they are using very big girls, wouldnt be profitable to use girls that are within the standard
PHMowgli: oh geez 3 phone calls today about their breeders not giving them AKC papers at the time they got pups
curliousCresteds: hihope if the handler has health information that the owner doesnt want know, why would they tell you?
PHChristy: I find when talking to non-dog people about pet store puppies, they are not very receptive, they think you're just being a snob.
RaindanceIGs: Most of the 'handlers' in my breed are clueless and I would not listen to most of them for any kind of breeding decision (unless they also happened to be breeders of my breed, which are few and far between)
PHChristy: I tend to talk mostly about their mothers back at the mill
cntrstgpom: very true, how else would they have gotten 18 pups within a week, lol
hihopelabs_nr: Actually, one recent one I've inquired about to watch for awhile, was told that one of his elbows didnt pass OFA but of course, it's not listed on the OFA site.....
travlinpom_nr: cntrstg, yep, exactly
hihopelabs_nr: Not sure if the handler was trying to start trubble, or if the handler just really made a BIG mistake in telling me
RaindanceIGs: sigh, just got another puppy inquiry demanding a 'blue' puppy
RaindanceIGs: they think I am a catalog or something?
PHChristy: I have come up with an "instant test" of whether a breeder is responsible or not, a one shot deal, I call it the acid test: Do they not just guarantee but REQUIRE that they will take the puppy back at any time if you are unable to keep it, in writing? If not, run.
PHMowgli: Rain when I get calls like that I tell them to go elsewhere
curliousCresteds: Id consider with breeds that need hip/elbow xrays, anything that isnt listed as a pass on the OFA site has failed or they havent bothered to do it
PHChristy: it's amazing how many excuses breeders have for not taking puppies back
PHMowgli: Christy I know and one of the biggest is they cannot house anymore dogs
hihopelabs_nr: You wouldnt believe the bizillions of lab breeders out there that do not do elbows ! It's actually scarey
PHChristy: The ones I accept: Death. Abduction by aliens. Amnesia. And those last two are iffy.
RaindanceIGs: I have in my contract that if I am dead or otherwise unavailable that the puppy must go to an authorized rescue rep
travlinpom_nr: Christy, That is in my contract for pets and show prospects . . . i would be mortified if i lost track of one of my kids
PHChristy: Trav, of course!
PHChristy: I knew that without asking, my dear
RaindanceIGs: I also require health testing on my pet puppies
RaindanceIGs: though minimal
RaindanceIGs: CERF and patellas
PHMowgli: yep me too trav any pups leaves it must come back to me if home has a problem regardless when or why
PHChristy: I'll tell you this: I might have different opinions from some breeders on diet or conformation or vaccines or whatever, but if they don't take their puppies back, to me, they are scum
curliousCresteds: thats a good idea chelsea
PHChristy: and if you can't house more, then you're breeding too much
curliousCresteds: agreed Christy
RaindanceIGs: Well think about it, if only the show pups from each litter are tested, that really does not give a very good perception on the health of the litter - for things that may go unnoticed without a test
PHMowgli: right christy!!!
PHChristy: <---extremely mean
curliousCresteds: Dylan got Patellas done 2 weeks ago, will have CERF every year until he dies or fails
PHChristy: anyway, I'm writing an article about that... "The Acid Test"
hihopelabs_nr: You're right , Rain.. but that also goes in hand with knowing the pedigree of sire and dam
travlinpom_nr: It is never 'convenient' to take back an adult, but there is always space!!! You just re arrange everyone until the new kid fits back into the program . . .
PHMowgli: heck even if I got every dog I ever bred back today I would not have many more than I do now OL
RaindanceIGs: there is only so much you can know until a DNA test comes out for any given problem
hihopelabs_nr: True, very true
PHChristy: very true, Rain
PHChristy: we deal with that in our breed
RaindanceIGs: we have no dna tests in IGs :(
curliousCresteds: what about stud dogs? does anyone require second right of refusal, if the breeder wont/cant take the pup back will you take it?
hihopelabs_nr: there is always something lurking WAYYYYYY back somewhere that will eventually come out to bitecha in the butt
ode2adream: give science enough time, you'll be able to pick your color/etc of the breed you want before birth. I mean already you can with human babies...its just a matter of time. *lol* *is teasing*
PHMowgli: crested you mean a pup from one of your studs?
RaindanceIGs: you know, in a stud contract for a dog I am breeding to - I thought this was very nice - they required the phone numbers of all new puppy owners and require being informed of any problems that might arise with the pups
RaindanceIGs: every dog out there carries recessives for hereditary problems
PHChristy: curlious, my stud dog contract basically gave me right of approval of all homes, and that I'd take puppies if the breeder couldn't/wouldn't
RaindanceIGs: most dogs carry several
curliousCresteds: its jsut as important for the owner of the stud to know if theres a problem than the owner of the bitch
PHMowgli: in my stud contract it requires the bitch owner to use my puppy contract so I know where all the pups go as well as I will take a pup if necessary
RaindanceIGs: i am sick of hearing problems being blamed on dog or bitch - if a problem pops up, depending on what it is, generally both dog and bitch have contributed their fair of genes towards the problem
cntrstgpom: Trav, sorry don't know how to whipser on this thing, this is Mailepom, just got a new screename, lol
RaindanceIGs: Mowgli that is a good idea
PHMowgli: if stud owners screen who uses their boys it helps the breed in general
PHChristy: I think that we have to get away from this idea of "blame"
PHMowgli: just as if bitch owners screen the puppy buyers
PHChristy: it makes us reluctant to share information
PHChristy: it's all information, so it's all good for the breed
PHMowgli: hi emme
curliousCresteds: I think maybe i'll have something along the lines of i have to approve the puppy contract, but not necessarily force them to use mine (not that I ahve one right now anyways)
PHChristy: and some conditions ARE coming from just one parent, and we need to know that and be able to evaluate mode of inheritence
PHChristy: hi emmemay! Welcome to Dog Breeding Chat!
RaindanceIGs: I recently read the book control of canine genteic diseases by padgett, i reccomend it to everyone who is breeding dogs - the book is very controversial but puts a lot of things in a new perspective
hihopelabs_nr: Unfortunately there are many who see the $ rolling in and dont give a D**N about who their stud is bred to, as long as it walks and is in heat....sad but true... I'd even venture to say there is a few like that in every breed, not just my labradors
PHMowgli: Christy you are right but no one wants to admit they may be producing a problem
travlinpom_nr: cntrstg, well shoot, sorry, didnt recognize you, LOL
PHChristy: but as long people are so judgemental and ready to point fingers, other people will keep hiding or denying problems, and our breeds are screwed
RaindanceIGs: there are very few modes of inheritance where only one parent can be blamed
PHChristy: even in my breed where there is NO money to be made, it happens. Ego and pride
PHChristy: Raindance, it's not about "blame"
RaindanceIGs: autosomal recessive and polygenic hve to come from both sides
PHChristy: Raindance, in our breed, canine cystinuria is coming from the mothers who are carriers
RaindanceIGs: sex linked then?
windspirit: I have standard poodles....got so I asked people looking for pups if they had labs or goldens
PHChristy: we don't know, the male might contribute some expression factors
RaindanceIGs: i see
curliousCresteds: good one wind, dont need more labradoodles
PHChristy: windspirit, I don't blame you, this whole "poo" thing is just out of control
hihopelabs_nr: Good for you Windspirit !!!!! I want to scream or choke someoene everytime I hear the word and Ic an barely say it'...labradoodle
curliousCresteds: we're starting to get a lot of "Labernese" around here
PHChristy: not all dogs with cystinuria... I mean affected dogs, not carriers... are symptomatic (stone formers)
hihopelabs_nr: How on earth can a crested and lab .... I dont even want to picture it ACK
PHChristy: they have the defect but for some reason never form stones, we don't know where that is coming from
windspirit: I even started doing home inspections
curliousCresteds: no labernese are lab x bernese mnt dogs
PHChristy: Labernese... oh god
SmoothCollie_nr: speaking of blaming the sire or the dam for things that happen....... a friend of mine had a dog who bloated acouple yaers ago..... the dog was under 1yr old I believe... like 8-9 months old..... of course blamed it on the dams side.... a year later the sire of that dog died of bloat... hmmmmm
emmemay_nr: That is why no one will admit they have a problem when they do. Then the talk starts, I am sure we have all heard it, very few breeders can come back after a smear campaign
PHMowgli: I was thinking lab and havanese LOL
curliousCresteds: havent seen any labxcresteds, though i did see a crested x gsd
curliousCresteds: LOL thats what I thought at first too Mow
PHChristy: and yet, when I had my dogs get cystinuria, I spoke out publically on the deerhound list, and no one has smeared me
hihopelabs_nr: one of my MIL's acquaintences told me last year she bought a pRoodle to breed to her goldens for golden NOODLES !
PHChristy: if you do it in the right way, you can defang them to a certain extent
hihopelabs_nr: Yes, she called a poodle, a pRoodle
PHMowgli: I really think the size of the breeds gene pool has a factor christy
hihopelabs_nr: I told her she was a crook and a disgrace
PHChristy: I was the first breeder to come forward about this, although to be fair, in the days before the Internet, I don't think others really knew what was going on
RaindanceIGs: there is a pretty common problem in my breed with teeth called enamel hypoplasia, the teeth are very rough int exture and feel like sandpaper - it is ALL over, and no one talks about it - I produced it in my 1st 2 litters - and have since been trying to research the problem
PHChristy: now there is no excuse
RaindanceIGs: have found 50 pedigrees of dogs in my breed who have produced it
curliousCresteds: my friend at school was asking me advice for buying a puppy, then she goes out and buys a schnoodle from the biggest "schnoodle" mill in canada
RaindanceIGs: from taling to other breeders in private
PHMowgli: the collie and sheltie and pom breeds and others large like them tend to do more smearing
PHChristy: I find that sunshine is not only the best disinfectant, it's the best "vaccine" too ... for character assassination
windspirit: people are real nice til you tell them NO. Then they get nasty
PHChristy: no one can reveal anything about me or my dogs because I always get there first
emmemay_nr: Not too many people are brave enough to come out and say things like that. Although I think that is the best route.
PHChristy: emmemay, me too
RaindanceIGs: well i have emailed several public lists and no one says a word
RaindanceIGs: but somehow i can work it into a conversation at a show
RaindanceIGs: and ask people if they have seen the problem
RaindanceIGs: or knw of dogs with it
PHChristy: personally, I'd rather get it out in the open than shiver in the shadows waiting to be exposed
RaindanceIGs: i am very open about it
RaindanceIGs: and i know people talk about me because of it
RaindanceIGs: and the dogs ive bred to more or less blame my bitch for the problem
PHChristy: well, people talk about me, too, LOL
PHMowgli: I also think if you announce a problem you take the sting off a probable smear campaign it is no big deal you already told the world
PHChristy: Mow, exactly
RaindanceIGs: i even asked the IGCA if they would consider adding it to their online public health pedigree database
RaindanceIGs: they were not interested
RaindanceIGs: thought no one would participate in giving info
emmemay_nr: Some people are not that thinck skinned. Lets face it we feel as protective of our dogs as our kids
PHMowgli: if some want to flame you so be it at least you are big enough to admit to a fault and try to correct it
SmoothCollie_nr: Mowgli> new pic of Angie I just uploaded... thought you might like to see http://www.angelfire.com/oh4/spiritwind/Angie/Angie4yrs3.JPG
hihopelabs_nr: I only wished that EVERYONE was open about things in their breeds with other breeders. It's not doing the breed a bit of good to keep quiet about it
curliousCresteds: it really would help a lot of breeders though
hihopelabs_nr: Hey, I'm Angie LOL.
PHChristy: I also think that few people dare say anything to my face about me or my dogs because I'm scarier than they are, LOL
curliousCresteds: thats similar to closed ear canals in cresteds, VERY few people will admit to it
RaindanceIGs: when I was showing one of my dogs that had this tooth problem (who is now spayed)
RaindanceIGs: i'd walk up to people, open her mouth, and tell them to look at her teeth
PHMowgli: of course I want to see it LOL
SmoothCollie_nr: LOL
PHChristy: someone whose dog had cystinuria was threatened by their breeder that if they revealed it publically they'd "ruin them"
PHChristy: she called me in tears
RaindanceIGs: and tell them how many puppies ive produced with the problem and from what pedigrees
PHChristy: I told her that this breeder had no power to "ruin them"
ode2adream: awww....so beautiful:)
PHMowgli: yeah Christy I saw your picture scared me for days
SmoothCollie_nr: Thanks..
PHChristy: she said, oh, you don't know what they can do! I said... like what? are they going to come to your house and slash your tires, break your windows?
PHChristy: she said no, they'll do a smear campaign on me
PHChristy: I said, do one back
PHChristy: start yours first
PHMowgli: Oh smooth she grew up LOL
PHMowgli: gorgeous smooth are you breeding her again?
hihopelabs_nr: Smooth...she's beautiful
RaindanceIGs: there are problems in purebred dogs, i dont understand why we have to tar and feather the ones that are honest about their problems
PHChristy: "Jane Doe threatened me that if I revealed this she'd ruin me, but my love for the breed is greater than my fear. My dog has cystinuria."
emmemay_nr: On the collie list someone came out and said there were a certian line of dogs that have produced bloat for the last 50 years. I asked her to tell me what the line was as I was not aware of it. She said she was bound to keep it a secret! Now what is that all about!
SmoothCollie_nr: Mowgli> LOL Angie is the momma of Paris.... I'm trying to find the links to my CCA show pics.. Mowgli, actually she is bred, and hopefully due end of April
RaindanceIGs: the onyl way we can learn is from hearing of these problems and trying to make educated decisions
PHChristy: what would they do? anything negative Jane Doe did from that day on, who'd listen?
PHChristy: ah well
PHChristy: emmemay, that owuld make me INSANE!
PHMowgli: great Smooth
SmoothCollie_nr: emmemay> LOL depends on who you ask.... on what lines do and don't have bloat LOL
PHChristy: well folks, it's time for me to turn things over to PHMowgli for showdog chat! Thanks for coming to Dog Breeding chat, I hope to see you next week!
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