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PHMorgan: Welcome to Breeders Chat! Topic tonight is Reabsorption...

behavensnikko: Think I had a Reabsorption happen recently

bizboots: My first time here, and I have had reabsorbtion problems

PHChristy: bheaven and biz, why don't you tell us what happened in your cases? or as much as you know?

PHChristy: just for reference, fetal resportion is when the fetuses die prior to around 40 days, and the bitch either resorbs them or they are disposed of by the body's natural cleansing mechanisms

behavensnikko: 10 year old Sheltie/ultrasounded with 2 fetuses/only had 1. No signs of anything!

PHChristy: usually if the fetuses die later than that, they are either aborted or they stay in the bitch and can cause infection

PHChristy: behavens, had she had a litter before?

PHChristy: TEN? wow

PHChristy: it's not unusual for older bitches to have very small litters

bizboots: I have OES and one of my bitches came from Holland where she normal cycled every 6 months, as soon she hit US soil she started to cycle every 4 months, we bred her and she was confirmed pregnant and reabdsorbed ,next time we bred her she lost everything in her sixth week

PHMorgan: It's fairly common for older bitches to resorp pups -

behavensnikko: She had 3 litters till this one

PHMorgan: THe eggs are all there at the time the bitch reaches maturity, and those were 10 year old eggs.... :-)

PHChristy: and it's not unusual for a pup or two to be resorbed

PHChristy: so this mght actually have been normal

bizboots: we found out that she had a premature drop of progesteron,

PHChristy: biz, in the sixth week, were they resorbed or did she abort them?

PHChristy: bizboots, how low did her progesterone go?

bizboots: she lost a lot of brown stuff

PHChristy: by the way, hello Kay, welcome to Dog Breeding Chat!

PHChristy: behaven, were her earlier litters all normal?

PHMorgan: Most likely that brown stuff was once puppies - I was told to look out for that in my bitch who resorbed some pups

bizboots: I don't really know until we bred her again and I have had prog testing done after the 4 th week every 2 dayswhen she was 6 weeks progesteronn dropped to 7 and she was put on regumate, result 2 life puppies

PHChristy: a pregnancy can be supported by any progesterone level above 2.5

PHChristy: although she may have been heading in that direction

behavensnikko: All other litters were normal, 5 pups

PHChristy: I know that most of the repro vets I know like progesterone in oil better than Regumate

bizboots: After talking to Hutch I did not taken any change

PHChristy: they say that Regumate will make the progesterone readings unreliable once they are on it

PHChristy: biz, did Dr. Hutch put her on Regumate? He is the one who recommended Prog in oil to me!

PHChristy: instead of Regumate

bizboots: progesteron in oil has to be administrated by the vet as an injection, the regumate is oral and you can do at home

PHChristy: behavens, my gut feeling is this was age-related in your bitch....

PHChristy: biz, that's correct

PHChristy: low progesterone as a cause of resorption is actually very rare

PHChristy: amazingly to me

PHMorgan: Melissa Goodman (repro specialist on the East COast here outside philly) ..

bizboots: No my reepo vet oin Florida did she also told me not to do prog. testes anymore as you cannot read that any more

PHChristy: biz, exactly

PHMorgan: Told me that low progesterone is the LEAST likely cause of resorption in her experience

PHChristy: what is interesting, not in your case but in those who test progesterone AFTER a litter is lost....

GAChesters: harooo the room!

bizboots: A friend of mine went through the same ordeal, I wonder why this happens so frequently the last few years in all breeds

PHChristy: that loss of pregnancy in and of itself causes the progesterone to plummet

PHChristy: so a post-loss measurement is deceptive and makes you think that was the cause, when it was an effect

PHMorgan: SHe told me that MOST often it is fetal defect, then after that the next most common is uterine infection

PHChristy: biz, I wonder if it does, or if the use of ultrasound and early pregnancy diagnosis just means we are catching more of it

PHChristy: Morgan, that is also my understanding

PHMorgan: My guess is that is the case, Christy

PHChristy: and that it seems to run in families

PHMorgan: Before, we never knew what we had until nearly the end when we x-rayed at 10 days before

PHMorgan: Yes, she said that as well

bizboots: I don't think it runs in families, we always has very fertile bitches and boys

berta: Finally

PHChristy: biz, it does run in families, but that doesn't mean every case is genetic

PHMorgan: SHe said that Nature had a wonderful way of eliminating unviable fetuses and that we as breeders were fortunate to have our dogs with such a function as resorption. I could not agree more

PHChristy: in some lines it does run in families

PHChristy: just that it accounts for SOME of it

PHChristy: not all

bizboots: hope not we kept both bitches and they are our future, nothing else left

PHChristy: biz, well, it sounds ilke you're right on track using the monitoring, so you'll know soon enough if it is a problem

bizboots: Also there can be a problem with delivery after using regumate, I did a section on the day she was due after her teemp dropped

PHChristy: given that we are either having or identifying more resportion in bitches...

PHMorgan: So let's talk about some types of uterine infection - it is the ONE thing we can prevent, here

PHChristy: some breeders are wondering if giving supplemental progesterone to support normal pregnancy is a good idea

PHChristy: but it's a BAD idea, because progesterone supplementation can cause a number of problems

GAChesters: ?

PHChristy: Delayed parturition

PHMorgan: GA Chesteres

GAChesters: Supplemental progesterone in what form?

PHChristy: Masculinization of female fetuses

PHMorgan: Er... That was GO AHEAD... LOLOL

PHChristy: GAC.... injection or oral

GAChesters: I've not done that nor heard of it..sounds like it's just as well lol

PHChristy: worsening undiagnosed uterine infection

bizboots: Masculination in female fetuses only occurs if you start to supplement to early

PHChristy: also, you have to have done ovulation timing, because you have to stop the supplemental progesterone 72 hours before whelping

PHChristy: biz, I agree

PHChristy: or you risk fetal death

PHMorgan: THat was Dr. Goodman's biggest argument against it - she said that if there WAS a uterine infection, the progesterone would make it harder to treat.

GAChesters: So what is the point of supplemental progesterone anyway?

PHChristy: biz, also.... only if not needed

bizboots: That is correct and everything went accordsing to the book

PHChristy: GAC... if the progesterone drops too low to sustain the pregnancy, you have to supplement or you lose your litter

PHMorgan: IF the bitch actually HAS low progesterone, it can help save the litter

PHChristy: you can give it orally or by injection in oil (by vet)

PHMorgan: It just has to be monitored carefully and you need to be WELL aware of the risks

PHChristy: but it's a rare cause of fetal resporption

GAChesters: Ok.....so if you aren't doing any progesterone testing prior to breeding (which I generally don't) you wouldn't know right?

bizboots: Don't use it if you don't need it

PHMorgan: YOu might not know until it's too late anyhow

PHChristy: GAC, this type of progesterone monitoring has to be done during pregnancy

PHMorgan: It can drop quickly and without warning

PHChristy: it's usually done on a bitch who has resportion in the past

PHMorgan: I was told you needed to check the levels almost daily to prevent loss of the litter

PHMorgan: IF low progesterone was indeed teh problem

PHChristy: Morgan, yes, because they can miss it

bizboots: Every 2 days is sufficient

PHChristy: but again, it's a rare cause

GAChesters: ?

PHChristy: Morgan, you had some info on the infectious causes

PHChristy: GAC, ga

PHMorgan: Major point being - uterine infection is more likely

GAChesters: So just playing devils advocate here.......if I had a bitch that had reabsorption problems, and is from a line with that, why would I try so hard to save a litter ie: progesterone testing during PG?

bizboots: I don't think it is ro rare anymore, when I went through it , I heard of many others with different breeds all over the country, I wonder why?

PHMorgan: It's important to check for uterine infeciton at the time the bitch has her brucellosis test.

PHMorgan: It's also important to keep in mind that many of the "negative" bacterial organisms that we DO sometimes find in the uterus are not necessarily indicative of infection

PHChristy: GAC, to see if primarly luteneal disfunction is the problem or not

PHChristy: you can't know without checking it during pregnancy

PHMorgan: EVERY bitch has some level of staph, mycoplasm and other common bacteria in her system

bizboots: I did that all and everything was fine, this fur us was a very rare case, normally we get litters of 8 to 10

PHChristy: biz, I think that compared to infection it is a rare cause of resporption

PHChristy: but I don't know if there are good stats on this

PHMorgan: IT's important to know that you will likely get a positive for those when you test - and to check for other symptoms

PHChristy: would be very intersting to ask Dr. Hutch

PHMorgan: Dr. Goodman said that infectiona nd low progesterone run a far second to fetal defect

PHMorgan: But she didn't have actual numbers

PHChristy: it's like with behaven, since her bitch's earlier litters were normal, I'd tend to think it was age related, or something genetic due to the sire and the dam not "nicking" well genetically

bizboots: I spoke to Hutch lenghty , had several phone consults with him

PHChristy: but with a bitch who has problems out of the blue....

PHChristy: biz, does he also think primary luteneal disfunction is on the rise?

PHChristy: sheesh, I cannot spell tonight!

PHMorgan: On my bitch who resorbed some pups, the ultrasound showed that one had a defective placenta

PHMorgan: So, just in case, we put my bitch on "bedrest" (hahaha)

PHMorgan: TO prevent any further loss of the existing pups

bizboots: He thinks so, my bitch had a normal litter before, she was bred here and shipped to Holland, and when she came back she started to cycle 4 months again, she is now back home in Holland and her cycles are back to normal, must be the Florida weather

PHChristy: LOL

PHChristy: what breed is this again, biz?

bizboots: Old English Sheepdogs

PHChristy: and they tend to have big litters?

PHChristy: I would assume....

bizboots: One of my other vets told me bedrest and clavamox( I am not using this vet anymore)

PHChristy: my thought is that to a certain extent we are just so much better able to MONITOR and TREAT these things now, that some of our perception of increased incidence is misleading

bizboots: Yes OES normally get big litters, this bitch I bred to 2 different males so it was not them

PHChristy: but on the other hand, given the number of hormone-disrupting things in our environment and diets.... it would not surprise me to find there was a genuine rise in luteal dysfunction

PHChristy: hormonal imbalances in our bitches

PHChristy: from too much artificial light, soy in their diets, estrogenic substances in the environment

bizboots: Same as women lol

PHChristy: even a diet too high in Omega 6 fatty acids, which is basically any diet using grain-fed meats and grains... can disrupt hormone function

PHChristy: I always want to scream when I see kibbles BRAG about containing Omega 6 fatty acids... because they contain TOO MUCH

bizboots: This was the first time in 30 years I have had this problem, all my bitches bred , had normal litters never a miss

PHChristy: biz, what is your theory?

bizboots: Well as you said, too much of the "good" stuff, maybe also heartworm prevention

PHChristy: how so, heartworm prevention?

bizboots: Well that is a "poison pill" given every month

travlinpom_nr: hey all

bizboots: That's the only poison they are getting, we have no fleas, ticks etc, don't have to spray the yard and treat dogs

PHChristy: what about their diet?

PHChristy: unless you're feeding organic foods, there are poisons on their diets, too

bizboots: they are on Natural choice

PHChristy: but it's not organic

pbeccajo_nr: I have not had trouble with reasorbtion but traveled with a bitch that took herself out of heat when we got there....

bizboots: no not organic, cannot afford that

PHChristy: pbeccajo, I've heard of that, and also of bitches who resorbed their litters after conceiving and flying while pregnant

PHChristy: so clearly stress can trigger it, which does make sense

PHChristy: and obviously not all bitches are equally stressed by flying

PHChristy: although I consider it high stress

PHChristy: even for me, doing it willingly in the cabin, LOL

bizboots: our bnitch was flown to Holland while pregnant and that did not make any difference to her, only being in Florida

PHChristy: biz, was she only on HW preventative in Florida?

bizboots: Yes

PHChristy: you know, in Europe, it's illegal to give hormones to food animals

PHChristy: unlike the US

pbeccajo_nr: Isn't it funny that this wonderful bitch is not anything you recognize when you travel. LOL

PHChristy: plus they restrict the feeding of antibiotics to food animals very strictly, much more stringently than here where they are used in livestock feed

bizboots: That is correct. My friend who has the bitch now in Hiolland has put all the dogs on freshe food

PHChristy: so in addition to the HW preventative....

PHChristy: she was on a less hormonal food in Holland

PHChristy: although I find it hard to believe she could get THAT disrupted that fast.... how long was she in Florida?

PHChristy: pbeccajo, yeah, some bitches are just calm as can be as long as their routine isn't disrupted, but change on thing they go to pieces!

bizboots: She was with me for 2 years trying to get babies out of her

PHChristy: that's something I like to know abou t bitch before I breed her, how she handles change and stress

PHChristy: bizboots, hmmmm, then maybe that is long enough

bizboots: This was the seccond time she was here

PHMorgan: OK so how do we find out if our bitch is resorbing pups or just hasnt' gotten pregnant??

PHChristy: ultrasound

PHMorgan: I think a lot of folks dont' know for SURE that momdog is pregnant

PHChristy: pups were definitely there and then definitely not

kimmer2004: hello--can I ask you guys a few questions? I am thinking of getting a dog as a pet.

PHChristy: kimmer, if you can hang on just a few minutes...

PHMorgan: An ultrasound is the BEST way to know for sure.

bizboots: We do Ultrasound, always have done it when I lived in Holland too

PHChristy: we are doing a specific topic but are almost done with it....

kimmer2004: great..thanks

PHChristy: and will be glad to talk about that in a few minutes :)

kimmer2004: :)

PHMorgan: A reliable palpation can tell you IF she is having pups and then if she has NONE (altho you cannot really COUNT using palpation)

pbeccajo_nr: I had an implant done on a bitch and took her to one of the best vets in the country and did everything VERY right and she never had puppies..... could have been reasorbtion?????

PHChristy: pbeccajo, yes, it could have been, or she could have missed

PHChristy: without knowing if she ever conceived it's not possible in retrpspect to answer that

PHChristy: pbeccajo, was the implant from fresh, frozen, or chilled semen?

PHChristy: frozen semen will tend to have more defective sperm, or any semen from an old stud

pbeccajo_nr: Fresh....

bizboots: I think we should do some research in WHY this is happening all over the place, I think it is not only here it is overseas too, but they don't have clue where to look they do not even think about the progesteron problem

PHChristy: and defective fetuses are often resorbed

PHChristy: bizboots, I think that first it has to be quantfied... we need to ask the repro vets to chart how much of it is really happening, and the identifiable causes

PHChristy: and then see what pattern is emerging

bizboots: I will start doing this from my end, and mabe we can find out why and what to do

PHChristy: pbeccajo, what breed and how was the stud's sperm quality?

pbeccajo_nr: I do German Shepherds and she was the granddaughter of highest ROM sire ever and wanted puppies so bad......but after 3,000 dollars gave up......

PHChristy: alo pbeccajo, it was a surgical implant? who did it?

pbeccajo_nr: Anna Adams in Atlanta

PHChristy: bizboots, it's a good subject... when we have Dr. Hutch back we need to make sure he talks about it

bizboots: good idea

PHChristy: pbeccajo, is she boarded in repro or internal medicine?

PHChristy: or just a vet who does a lot of it?

pbeccajo_nr: That is her specialty.... most of what she does.....

PHChristy: I am emailing Dr. Hutch about his next guest chat with us this week, I'll be sure to let him know this is a hot topic

PHChristy: pbeccajo, the conception rate of fresh semen and surgical implant is very high... did she have any idea why the bitch missed?

pbeccajo_nr: This bitch was very nervous and could have finished but would not show.....

bizboots: A friend of mine had her bitch surgecally implanted twice and never got puppies either

PHChristy: well, there is absolutely nothing that beats the conception rate of natural breeding

pbeccajo_nr: She had not explanation..... and said that there was nothing left to do...... I sent her back to the person who placed her with me and 2 years later bred naturally with a male she was left with.

PHChristy: I just mean, for an AI, surgical implantation with fresh semen is pretty good

PHChristy: can't beat nature

PHChristy: anyway..... does anyone have anything more to add about resporption?

PHChristy: if not, we can go to more open chat related to dog breeding.... and kimmer, if you want to ask about dogs as pets, we can do that now too :)

bizboots: Yeaaars ago in the UK there were some Commondores and the bitches chose their own stud , if they did not like the stud they did not get pegnant, weird or what

PHChristy: Juliette de Bairacli Levy let her Afghan bitches choose their own studs also

kimmer2004: awesome. i'll make it quick. :)

bizboots: Julliette dug her meat in the ground to cure also

PHChristy: yes, she did indeed!

pbeccajo_nr: No, I believe that some bitches have the power and I have seen some , if they don't like where they are at say no to what we want LOL

PHChristy: LOL pbeccajo, you're so right!

PHChristy: although my bitches are trollops

PHChristy: they don't care AT ALL, if it's male they want it

kimmer2004: i would love your input--I am looking to get a puppy--an I want a smaller dog, for my apartment. Two things--1) what are the benefits of females vs males and 2) I'm thinking of some sort of maltese breed--any good ideas of where to get one for a pet?

PHChristy: kimmer.... female vs male IMO is a matter of personal preference

PHChristy: I'd select the dog you like the best and who has the most suitable temperament, rather than worrying so much over gender

Scootter: hello all

PHChristy: as to how to find a good pet, the key is first to locate a really good, ethical breeder

behavensnikko: Sorry, I got sidetracked/ Yes it was probably age related Christie

PHChristy: Hi there Scootter!

PHChristy: LOL behaven... welcome back

kimmer2004: great--any ideas of where to find good breeders? I've heard to make sure I go to breeders

Scootter: do any of you have advice on seperation anxiaty for me?

PHChristy: kimmer, I would advise against any breeder who is just producing pet puppies, and let me tell you why

PHChristy: it's not because I think that there is something holy about show breeders and something horrible about pets, not at all

PHChristy: in theory, any breeder who does genetic testing and screens the homes their pups go to and offers a guarantee of health, and always, ALWAYS takes puppies back, at any point in the dog's future life, if need be, is a good breeder

PHChristy: and many show breeders don't do those things

PHChristy: but finding a pet breeder who does those things is virtually impossible in the toy breeds

PHMorgan: A major consideration when choosing a toy dog is the coat, also, Kimmmer

berta: Amen

PHChristy: there is such a lucrative market for pet puppies in toy dogs....

PHChristy: they have no trouble selling them

PHMorgan: Most toy breeds require grooming of some kind - eithe brushing at home or professional or both

PHChristy: so they produce pups to make money

PHChristy: show breeders on the other hand... NOT ALL BY ANY MEANS! but the really good ones... do not expect to make money

bizboots: Gotta go , have to let dogs out, was a pleasure being here, I'll be back at the next chat

PHChristy: they are breeding (again, the good ones!)...

PHMorgan: So you want to be prepared for those chores

PHChristy: night biz, I look forward to chatting with you again soon!

PHMorgan: See you next time, Bizboots!

kimmer2004: lots of good advice...of course, have to run--low battery

kimmer2004: i'lll be back to talk soon--thanks all!

PHChristy: good show breeders are breeding to improve the breed and not for money

PHMorgan: Welcome to Breeders Chat! Topic tonight is Resorption...

PHChristy: ok goodnight!

PHChristy: Hello Wolfhound! We're cousins

wolfhound: LOL that we are

PHChristy: hi there iwolfie.... :)

PHChristy: well, it seems that everyone got very quiet all of a sudden, LOL

berta: You have us all trained not to talk now

behavensnikko: Whew we're over powered by the "large breeds" LOL, I've got Shelties

PHChristy: we have been chatting about resportion but have just gone to a more open dog breeding chat, so anything about dog breeding is fair game

PHChristy: LOL behaven, yes, or we COULD say we're overrun by SCOTTISH BREEDS

PHChristy: Hi Mowgli!

pbeccajo_nr: I agree about finding good puppies thru dedicated breeders for show and since they all can't be show dogs one can get a great pet with a great pedigree

behavensnikko: Yes ,Scottish breeds are "in"

pbeccajo_nr: When one has a pet quality dog it is always nice to brag about his pedigree LOL LOL

PHMowgli: hey everyone

PHChristy: pbeccajo, yeah, like I say, in THEORY I can see that pet breeding could be ethical, and many show breeders IMO are NOT ethical

PHChristy: but I find that if you find an ethical show breeder, that is the best place to get a pet

wolfhound: Christy you are absolutely right. There are plenty of unethical show breeders in all breeds

pbeccajo_nr: But ....... what happens when a breeder doesn't like where the standard is going???? Wouldn't that be a great topic for discussion??

PHChristy: Folks, we need a topic for next week's Dog Breeding Chat, any suggestions?

PHChristy: wolfhound, yes, it's a shame but very true

PHChristy: pbeccajo, that's a good point - and very true in many breeds, such as GSDs

PHChristy: Breeding for Pets: Can it be ethical?

PHChristy: is that a good topic for next week?

pbeccajo_nr: We are German Shepherd people and look where our topline and and back legs aree going????

PHFang: WOW! full house! Hi everyone

PHChristy: hi there Fang!

PHMorgan: How about analyzing the standard for ummmm.. insert adverb here

PHChristy: pbeccajo, please be sure to come next week then!

PHMorgan: Welcome to Breeders Chat! Topic tonight is Reabsorption...

PHChristy: Morgan, is the "Breeding for Pets: Can it be ethical?" ok for next week?

pbeccajo_nr: I will....

PHChristy: I would enjoy that one

PHMorgan: THat is fine, too.

PHChristy: :D

PHMorgan: I absolutely LOVE that tpic

PHMorgan: topic

PHMorgan: OK Im going to take my antihistimines and crawl into bed with my Z.....

behavensnikko: I have so many show quality Shelties go 'over' in size they are beautiful specimens of the breed,but grew too much. Oh the agony of purebreds. I do mostly out crosses so health & temperaments are first & foremost but oops, that darn size issue

PHChristy: ok, then that's settled... and Miss Mowgli, don't forget to send me a topic for next week's showdog chat!

PHMorgan: See ya'll tomorrow and/or next week

PHChristy: behaven, yes, I hear that's a real issue in Shelties

PHMowgli: will do christy

pbeccajo_nr: Great chat!!!!!! Bye all....

PHChristy: nature does like to make dogs move toward the norm usually, but it also seems to me, having a giant breed, that nature likes to move them BIG

PHChristy: night pbeccajo!

PHChristy: thanks for the suggestion for a topic :)

PHChristy: I want to thank everyone for coming to Dog Breeding Chat tonight - and I hope we'll see you next week!

PHChristy: I'm now turning the room over to PHMowgli and PHFang for SHOWDOG CHAT! Please stick around for part two of our Dog Chat Doubleheader!