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Transcript: Dog Breeding Chat Tuesday, Oct. 18, 2005: Phenotype Vs. Genotype PHChristy: Welcome to Dog Breeding Chat! Our topic tonight is "Genotype and Phenotype" Clicker59: I Foomd the word Comfty Couch reminds me of Former PCF Reo LOL PHMowgli: Ok everyone so when you are picking a stud dog lets say what is more important to you how he looks or what is in his line? PHMowgli: hey harv ecam_nr: his mother and his looks Clicker59: Found a Woord I mean ode2adream: both? EClatSPs: Poor Morgan and puppers! We went through that here not long ago. PHChristy: I would say that when making breeding decisions, the only good thing about what you see, is what it might tell you about what a dog is carrying PHMowgli: Morgan not the doggie flu is it?? I get so worried about that now PHMorgan: I think no - vet has checked a few and seems confident not PHMowgli: oh good morgan PHChristy: obviously for BUYING a dog, a dog to show, you want to know what his phenotype is, what he displays. But in breeding, phenotype is only useful for what it reveals about genotype Clicker59: OK Morgan PHMorgan: I agree, Christy PHChristy: Mow, doggie flu is no worse than kennel cough anyway PHMowgli: I like to look at the dog itself, but also see the ped and as many ancestors as pissible too PHMorgan: And even when you HAVE the pedigree, sometimes you get stuff you didn't expect PHChristy: last week just as chat was ending, one of the chatters was saying she never analyzes pedigrees, just goes by what she sees. PHMowgli: possible even ecam_nr: but knowing the pedigree doesn't tell you what genes it carries..even litter mates produce differently PHChristy: I suspect that a really epxerienced breeder is unconsciously doing a LOT of pedigree analysis Clicker59: Morgan I am having a issue on that because of the Halloween Party a week from today harvbeck: hi all\ Clicker59: Hi Harv PHMowgli: right ecam but if you know about the dogs you can at least have a sense of any hidden health problems you cannot see PHChristy: ecam, if you have an exhaustive understanding of the pedigree it will PHChristy: it's not enough to just look at it, it has to mean something to you PHChristy: in the absence of genetic testing, we have nothing BUT pedigree to guide us in looking at genotype PHMorgan: What do you mean, Loo? ecam_nr: sure.. but when I breed, I am working on third or fourth generation that I know.. and littermates usually.. PHMowgli: ecam but polygenic defects can still show up even from 8 generations back ecam_nr: breeding to a stud tho, I do look at his dam mostly.. with the obvious checks for hips, elbows, etc PHChristy: but even so, even if you are unconsciously analying pedigree, that only covers conformation IT doesn't even TOUCH on issues of health. Clicker59: I am having a issue on the Doggie Flu because Pet Smart s having a Halloween Party a week from today PHMorgan: Even when you KNOW all the dogs in the pedigree, you can still be surprised. I bred a litter from parents whose pedigree I knew 4 generations back - had my HANDS on the dogs and often their littermates, and STILL was surprised at what I got. ecam_nr: sure.. and how do you find out what they are w/o breeding Clicker59: Morgan
PHChristy: you can definitely still be surprised, because you can't actually view a genotype ... if you could it would be a phenotype anyway
PHChristy: but we are beyond the days of "breed the best to the best an dhope for the best"
ecam_nr: if I could only see the dog or the piedigree, I would take the dog
PHChristy: we really can do sophisticated analyses of pedigrees and make much better information
PHMorgan: Well, if you are worried, then don't go, but I'm not so sure it's THAT much of an epidemic.
PHMorgan: Ecam - I agree
PHMowgli: now who thinks running coefficients tells you anything?
PHMowgli: do we really know if they give us any information at all?
EClatSPs: I think it's just one more thing that one can look at.
PHMorgan: I haven't quite got the hand of using them. I find more useful to just see how many times the dog shows up in a pedigree and judge from there based on what I know of the dog and what he/she produced
ecam_nr: now are we talking breeding for health issues only.. or for conformation showing?
EClatSPs: I think it gives us some info, but I don't think it's the be-all, end-all of breeding decisions as some in my breed believe.
PHChristy: ecam, for all breeding decisions, conformation health temperament etc
PHMorgan: WB loo
ecam_nr: then is breeding an art or science?
Clicker59: Sorry about that
travlinpom: hey all
PHChristy: it's both
EClatSPs: Both, IMHO.
PHMowgli: ecam I myself think it is a bit of both
PHMowgli: hey trav
PHChristy: hi Trav! Welcome to Dog Breeding Chat! Our topic tonight is "Genotype and Phenotype"
EClatSPs: Hey, Trav!
ecam_nr: true but some breeders have an "eye'..
PHMorgan: That is definitely true, Ecam
Clicker59: What is Geno & Phenotype?
PHChristy: yes, but an eye can't view genotype no matter how good it is
PHMowgli: but that eye will not help you get healthier dogs
Clicker59: Hi Geezer
PHMowgli: hey geezer
PHGeezer: Hi everybody!
ecam_nr: but soundness and health come first.. then the extras
PHMorgan: I have a friend who has never, to my knowledge, been wrong in picking a puppy, and often her pick isn't even remotely looking like what I would think would turn out. THey always do
Clicker59: Hi Geezer
ecam_nr: a good show dog has to be sound.. first.. then have the conformation
EClatSPs: Morgan, I think we'd alll love to have a friend like that when it comes time to pick puppies.
PHMorgan: The woman is amazing, and it doesn't matter what breed
EClatSPs: Sound both mentally, physically, and health.
Clicker59: EC I agree
PHMorgan: The pupppy she picked from my first litter looked like a black & White potato with legs. Nobody liked her
PHMorgan: She's gorgeous
Clicker59: What Bred Morgan?
EClatSPs: So where does she live?
ecam_nr: with a good eye you can pick a dog of any breed.. balance is balance.. and type is type
PHChristy: SmDog :)
PHMorgan: She's a pointer
PHChristy: Welcome to Dog Breeding Chat! Our topic tonight is "Genotype and Phenotype"
PHMorgan: In PA
Clicker59: Hi SmDog
PHMowgli: hey smdog and brandi
PHSmDog: Christy.... howareya?
EClatSPs: Darn... :(
brandilee: hello
Clicker59: Hi Brand
brandilee: hi Mow
PHSmDog: Hey Mow I'm back among the living...
brandilee: hi smdog
EClatSPs: Hi, guys!
Clicker59: Hi EC
PHSmDog: Hey everyone
brandilee: hi clicker
travlinpom: I have an eye for my own breed . . . but sure wouldnt try to pick a puppy in a Saluki litter
PHMowgli: good to know SmDog LOL
PHMorgan: I think it's so important to understand the pedigree of the dogs you are breeding. Otherwise it's like ordering clothing out of a catalog. You can see it, but you don't know the texture of it
PHSmDog: Mow I'm happy about it... that was AWFUL whatever it was
PHMowgli: I would pick a dog in any breed as long as I don't have to keep it myself LOL
Clicker59: Mow LOL
ode2adream: rofl
PHMowgli: hey puppies are all cute how can ya go wrong if you don'[t have to keep it LOL
EClatSPs: Back again? LOL
PHChristy: Hi Geezer Welcome to Dog Breeding Chat! Our topic tonight is "Genotype and Phenotype"
ode2adream: lol
brandilee: hi
EClatSPs: I'm sure glad I had help in picking mine!
EClatSPs: Hello, Val.
PHMowgli: wow I am gonna head up the parade
PHMowgli: hey Val
PHChristy: Val! Welcome to Dog Breeding Chat! Our topic tonight is "Genotype and Phenotype"
Clicker59: Hi Val
PHMorgan: Hi, Val
PHValkyrie: Hiya
PHValkyrie: uhoh...gettin' to the nuts and bolts of breeding. Okay, the space above my head is clear. Now everything can passover unhindered.
travlinpom: I think pedigree is very important. I rarely go out to stud and i do mostly linebreeding and in breeding . . . gives a much better idea of what you will get with each breeding
PHMowgli: but you also have more likelyhood of brining up recessives trav
ecam_nr: how many times do you inbreed before you go out?
travlinpom: Mow, yes, and some of those recessives are exactly what i want
travlinpom: ecam, that depends on how close the breeding was and how close each of the two pedigrees is
EClatSPs: What about those you don't want?
PHMowgli: yep trav and then when you get that detrimental one though look out LOL
travlinpom: How would outcrossing help that? you still are working with the same recessives, only you dont know it
ecam_nr: I have hard twice in and once out in my breed.. but I rarely breed that close.. only linebreeding
EClatSPs: We have so many *horrible* health issues within my breed that I'm really in a quandry with what direction to go.
Clicker59: Val I ave a ? since you are a vet tech
PHMowgli: from my understanding trav you will not be pulling so tightly on same recessives so less likely to procure them
Clicker59: Have I mean
travlinpom: ecam, i absolutely HATE those little miracle formulas
PHValkyrie: I did my first cystocentisis today! Struck gold the first stick and on an obese cat!!
PHValkyrie: uhoh...that didn't work, that was supposed to be private.
PHMorgan: Congrats
PHMowgli: Congrats Val!!
Clicker59: Val LOL
ecam_nr: well this one came from Covy Tucker HIll who bred Manhatten.. the Gsd.. it worked for them over and over
travlinpom: Mow, I would much rather know what i am working wtih . . . have had very bad experiences going out
Clicker59: Val Cool
PHChristy: LOL Val
PHChristy: congrats on the cysto, though
PHMowgli: better the evil ya know right trav LOL
travlinpom: ecam, unless you know each dog in the pedigree, those formulas will not work
PHChristy: a breed with an open stud book might help that
ecam_nr: isn't that true of almost any breeding?
travlinpom: Example: breed granddaughter to grandsire . . . well geez, if they are both mediocre dogs, then all you can hope for is mediocre
ecam_nr: my breed is pretty tightlty linebred now.. and needs outcrosses and we don't have any that we like
PHMorgan: I think you have to look closely at your breeding program - when you have nowhere NEW or HEALTHY to go, it's time to go out again
PHChristy: I think that we are still at a state where there is a large element of chance and guesswork (some more informed than other guesswork) in any; breeding, but we DO have more information available to us than many breeders utilize.
Clicker59: Val there is going to be a Halloween Party a week from to day at Pet Smart so because of the Dog flu should I be concerned? I am not sure if it hit in my area yet Val
PHMowgli: But some breeds are so popular there is a genetic mess out there christy
EClatSPs: I couldn't go to a grandsire any direction and maintain either health *or* structure...
PHChristy: Heck, Mow, some UNpopular breeds have a genetic mess too!
EClatSPs: Mine being one of those, Mow.
ecam_nr: what breed EC?
PHChristy: Hey there Ruffers! Welcome to Dog Breeding Chat! Our topic tonight is "Genotype and Phenotype"
EClatSPs: Standard Poodles.
PHMowgli: what I mean is like the Dals in the past decade look how much they deteriorated
EClatSPs: We are overrun with health issues.
PHMowgli: hey ruff
ecam_nr: oh neat dogs.. the breed I wanted first..
RuffersRule: Hi all
Clicker59: Val should I be concerned or not?
EClatSPs: And some bad temperaments cropping up...
Clicker59: Cockers too
Clicker59: & Labs
PHChristy: Of course, right now having just lost a dog to osteo and having had my lines end with this cystinuria thing which is emerging in our breed, I'm feeling very despondent about the health and genetic diversity of purebred dogs.
EClatSPs: Several of the 'big winners' have to be drugged to be in the ring.
PHChristy: maybe I'll feel more optimistic in a few months
PHMowgli: eclat I am starting to see a lot of temp problems in outside studs I look at in shelties too
EClatSPs: That's very sad. What a great breed...
Clicker59: Mow ok
PHMorgan: PHChristy needs a GROUP HUG
ecam_nr: do you blame the judges or the handlers or the breeders when these dogs win?
PHChristy: I'm going to the Silken Windhound specialty next weekend, it will be interesting to see a breed still in development
PHMorgan: JUDGES
RuffersRule: I have a artical that was posted in San Fran thought you all might be intrested it is about dogs swallowing latex balls
PHMorgan: OIt
PHMorgan: It'
Clicker59: (((((((((((((CHRISTIE))))))))))))))))))
PHMowgli: (((((christy)))))
EClatSPs: I agree, Morgan. <<
PHChristy: thank you everyone
PHMorgan: IT IS THEIR RESPONSIBILITY TO CHOOSE THE RIGHT DOGS
PHMorgan: ANd those who breed, should judge, I feel, if they can
travlinpom: ecam, ultimately, i think it is a judge problem . . . if they werent putting them up, breeders wouldnt breed them
RuffersRule: [url href=http://cbs5.com/topstories/local_story_288003450.html]http://cbs5.com/topstories/local_story_288003450.html[/url]
PHMorgan: How can you complain about the state of dogs winning in your breed if you don't choose judges, educate judges, or judge????
Clicker59: I don't know how to choose the right dog
ecam_nr: all breeders are judges at least at home picking puppies
EClatSPs: But the judges often have no way of knowing that the dog's been drugged. They only can see what's in front of them.
PHMowgli: I read that already ruff
ecam_nr: or show under judges who will get it right..
PHChristy: Raven was featured in the local dog paper .... written before she died, though. But it's very nice. http://www.fetchthepaper.com/read/index.htm
RuffersRule: cool mow
PHChristy: you just click on THree Legs and a Spare
EClatSPs: I was *very* disappointed and disillusioned by one well-known judge at our Regionals this past week.
RuffersRule: i think it is important to know Mow
EClatSPs: So very obviously political.
PHChristy: what happened, ECLat?
PHMorgan: I don't know about drugged dogs, but frankly, I'ves een a LOT of bad judging this past year
PHChristy: ah, I hate politics
PHChristy: in dog shows
travlinpom: Morgan, i agree
PHChristy: in life I like them
PHMorgan: By judges who KNOW better
ecam_nr: akc does not care What a judge puts up, only that they follow procedure
EClatSPs: The dogs who won didn't even show, were oversized, etc.
PHChristy: well, really AKC shouldn't have a say in what a judge puts up, in THEORY thejudge should be the expert, not the AKC bureaucracy
PHChristy: in reality many judges really have no business judging some of the breeds they judge
PHChristy: HI there Rouen! Welcome to Dog Breeding Chat! Tonight we're talking about genotype and phenotype and how we make our breeding decisions.
EClatSPs: There's one in particular who someone I know bred to. She got beautiful puppies, but they were nuts!
Rouen: hi christy
Clicker59: I never was in to politics but I had a Aunt that was some Local Polition's Manager
PHMorgan: Well, if the clubs keep choosing the judges to be at their shows, then those are the ones choosing our next generation of champions
Clicker59: Mow thanks
EClatSPs: I agree, Morgan. And this judge isn't even a breeder-judge who was at Regionals.
travlinpom: We are seeing BSD puppies winning big in the ring because the judges dont recognize it,, or dont care
EClatSPs: What's BSD, trav?
travlinpom: BSD kids have tremendous fuzzy coats, very cute . . . then bald by the time they are 18 months old
ecam_nr: well big name handlers can be part of the problem
PHMowgli: what is BSD?
travlinpom: Black Skin Disease
PHMowgli: ah Ok
EClatSPs: OK.
PHMowgli: but the handlers are just doing a job
ecam_nr: I meant some can win with a leser dog than the average exhibitor.. at least in my breed
PHMowgli: they are being paid to show the dogs to the best of their ability it is not their fault if judges put up the dogs they have just because they are handling it
EClatSPs: But when they are calling judges in advance, bribing them to put up the dogs they are handling, drugging dogs to show well, etc. (including frequently having dogs die while in their care), there is a problem with the handlers.
Clicker59: Mow thanks I will check it after the chat
travlinpom: ecam, i dont disagree, but often the handler wins on how she presents the dog, grooming and showing the dogs attributes to their fullest
PHMowgli: ecam but you cannot blame Jimmy Moses just because if he is at a show he wins regardless of what the dog he has looks like
RuffersRule: OK all I have to go back to studying mid-terms on Friday
EClatSPs: Good luck, Ruffers!
PHMowgli: k ruff
PHChristy: Eeek
Clicker59: Christie WB
PHMorgan: No, altho it's fun to imaging him stapled to a wall sometimes.....
Clicker59: OK Ruff
PHChristy: I hit "leave" instead of "send" because this HORRIBLE keyboard is too small LOL
PHMowgli: I agree Morgan LOL
ecam_nr: I know that.. but some win on the fact they have in with that particular judge.. and they go back again and again
PHChristy: good thing I didn't close down the room
RuffersRule: thanks for the luck [img id=em-6]
Clicker59: Christie LOL
RuffersRule: take care all and HUGS
PHChristy: night RUffers!
travlinpom: ecam, the same in all breeds . . . but you have to know which judges to show under
Clicker59: Christie see wghat Mood I am in?
PHMowgli: I hate it tooo everyone remember I have some big name handlers in my breed too but it is the judges not the handlers
Clicker59: Hi Berta
PHMowgli: the judges need to judge on the standard not who is at end of lead
PHMorgan: So, getting back to our topic..........oops
ode2adream: so true.
EClatSPs: Absolutely, Mow!
ecam_nr: I don't show under all breed judges.. just specialty breeder judges
PHMorgan: What are the advantages to just breeding dogs to dogs by visual?
PHChristy: berta!!! I didn't see you come in! Welcome to Dog Breeding Chat! Tonight we're talking about genotype and phenotype and how we make our breeding decisions.
travlinpom: There is a new website now, think it is called Judges Blacklist . . . pretty interesting
berta: I'm late
PHMowgli: and to make this offshoot work if we breed for fads of what judges are putting up by looking at phenotype and genotype for only lfad looks then we are doing a diservice to our breeds too
travlinpom: Morgan, type to type? no pedigree research? no advantage at all
EClatSPs: Do you have the link, Trav?
berta: Afew I'd like to blacklist right now
PHChristy: hi, Reptiles and Doc! Welcome to Dog Breeding Chat! Tonight we're talking about genotype and phenotype and how we make our breeding decisions.
PHMowgli: hi berta reptiles and doc
Clicker59: Hi Doc
PHChristy: I can't find it on google, Trav
REPTILES_nr: hi
travlinpom: EClat, no not in front of me, but if you email me, i'll get it for you
thedoc617: oh wow, i haven't heard those terms since biology last year!
PHChristy: that would be an interesting site
PHChristy: LOL doc
EClatSPs: What's your e-mail, Trav?
PHMowgli: trav I am gonna e-mail ya LOL
PHChristy: stick with dog breeders, we love those terms
travlinpom: Dang, you guys are going to make me look this up arent you? lol
PHChristy: ROFL Trav, yes!
PHMorgan: I think you can get a decent litter, but if you like what you get and don't understand the pedigrees, you can't repeat or improve upon it
travlinpom: It's interesting because you can enter your opinions on the database
REPTILES_nr: beeepbeeeepbeeeepbeeeepbeeeepbeeeep
PHChristy: you cannot dangle something like a judge's blacklist in front of us and not expect us to jump at it
PHMorgan: And naturally the health stuff is a big questino mark
travlinpom: okay, this might take me a couple minutes, BRB
thedoc617: does that go with the punitt square? if i am remembering correctly
PHChristy: any breeder can get lucky with one litter
PHChristy: or benefit form the advice of a good mentor
PHChristy: what is the real challenge is, where do you go from there?
PHMowgli: to do it consistently is a sign of a good breeder
PHChristy: a great breeder
EClatSPs: Good mentors are the ones who can help you to understand what you are seeing and why you are getting (or not getting) it.
ecam_nr: a good breeder could start from scratch and in ten years have big winners..
travlinpom: Black List
travlinpom: dang, i hope i got that right . . . somebody try it, okay?
Clicker59: I leave the breeding to the professionals
berta: We arem
PHMowgli: see that was not too hard trav LOL
PHChristy: ouch, they need to run spell check LOL
EClatSPs: Yep, it's right.
Clicker59: Christie LOL
berta: oops ...... we aren't professionals we're hobbyists
PHMowgli: its right although bad typos LOL
PHMorgan: It took me about 10 years to produce a few specialty winners
Clicker59: Mow LOL
PHMorgan: Now if it will only continue...
travlinpom: Christy, LOL, yep, that is everyone's first comment
PHChristy: good lord, read the Afghan hound entry!
ecam_nr: if you did it once.. you will do it again..
PHMorgan: What I'm most happy about is the consistency of temperaments, health and working ability
Clicker59: Morgon LOL
EClatSPs: I'm just barely getting started and all I hope for at this point is something I can finish owner-handled.
berta: Unfortunately about the time you think you've got it right a "fad" happens
PHMorgan: The show stuff is nice but it's not the reality of living with a dog
PHMorgan: Berta - OMG that is SO true
PHChristy: showing to me is the icing on the cake
PHChristy: I want to improve and preserve my breed
PHMowgli: OMG shelties and collies have no entires
PHChristy: definitely I want to show my dogs as part of that process, but it's not my goal
ode2adream: lol
travlinpom: I cant tell you how many times we have driven home from a show saying "Why are we breeding for soundness?"
berta: where are you talking about Mow
Clicker59: I only want my dogs for pets not showing
berta: got that right
travlinpom: Mow, it is a brand new site, i expect it will be loaded in a couple months
PHChristy: most of them have none yet
PHMowgli: Herding Page
PHChristy: sorry, this site is kind of off topic for this chat but I just HAD to see it LOL
PHMowgli: there berta
Clicker59: That's OK Christie
PHMorgan: I wanna see too!
PHChristy: she needs to learn to spell
PHChristy: anyway
PHChristy: LOL
PHChristy: back to the topic at hand
PHMowgli: he he
PHChristy: hey, what can I say, I'm a sucker for scandal, gossip, and intrigue
ode2adream: lol
Clicker59: Christie does it surprise you if I try to participate in any Pet events like that Hallowee Party Next Tuesday?
travlinpom: Christy, yep i agree, think she will get better response on the database if the site looks more professional . . . but for now, i think it is interesting and could be very helpful
PHChristy: and where better to find that than at an AKC dog show, LOL?
PHChristy: Clicker, no
EClatSPs: Isn't that why we're into dogs? That's one of the best parts of going to shows, Christy!
Clicker59: Christie LOL
PHChristy: ROFL EClat, yes, I'm afraid so
PHChristy: who needs reality TV when you can go to a dog show?
EClatSPs: Exactly!
travlinpom: I love showing . . . dog shows have become grossly expensive, so when i no longer enjoy them . . . i will quit
PHMowgli: I love to stand around shows and gossip!!!
PHMorgan: I find myself going less and less....
Clicker59: Don't get me started on that Christie LOL
PHChristy: grrrr
PHMowgli: I have more fun before and after ring time than I do showing LOL
Clicker59: Christie Don't get me started on that LOL
Clicker59: [img id=em-5]
PHChristy: this is user error, I keep hitting "Leave" instead of "Send" because this keyboard is designed for elves
PHMorgan: I like being in the ring with my dogs, but I get too easily irritated by bad judging. The more I learn, the less fun it is
Clicker59: Christie LOL
PHMowgli: christy can't you hit enter instead LOL
PHMowgli: Morgan exactly!!!!
Clicker59: Mow I do LOL
PHChristy: Mow, I'll probably end up closing the room if I do that LOL
PHMowgli: oh well then don't do that
PHChristy: Hi, Fancyfiesty! Welcome to Dog Breeding Chat! Tonight we're talking about genotype and phenotype and how we make our breeding decisions.
PHMowgli: hi fancy
Clicker59: BRB
PHChristy: although since it's the last ten minutes of chat, any dog breeding related topic is OK :)
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