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Transcript: Dog Breeding Chat Tuesday, Oct. 19, 2004: Can Breeding for Pets be Ethical? PHChristy: Welcome to Dog Breeding Chat! Tonight's topic is "Breeding For Pets - can it be ethical?" sheka_nr: fawn joyce_nr: I breed blacks and have for 20 yrs. PHChristy: I breed Scottish Deerhounds :) Rueger: shelties here joyce_nr: When I breed I breed to get a better Pug for my own sheka_nr: i breed bichons now joyce_nr: use. WhiteGold_nr: Samoyeds here joyce_nr: I keep the best male and female & sell the rest sheka_nr: i breed for me..and some VERY close family soemtimes PHChristy: Everyone... Welcome to Dog Breeding Chat! Tonight's topic is "Breeding For Pets - can it be ethical?" joyce_nr: The breeder is not trying to impr;ove the breed if joyce_nr: breeding only for pets. Rueger: I only breed to improve the breed and when I want something else PHChristy: joyce, if the breeder WERE trying to improve the breed.... would it be ethical then? I'm thinking of breeds with temperament problems, or health problems, or where there is controversy over type sheka_nr: how do u improve bichons? there already..clean..cute..fuzzy..prett and smart?! lol joyce_nr: I do not breed a dog uless a champion PHChristy: such as German Shepherds Rueger: hmm joyce I guess I am a bad breeder then Rueger: I breed for myself and breed improvement but i ONLY SELL PETS PHChristy: joyce, this is pugs? joyce_nr: why do you not show your dogs at all Rueger: opps sorry hit caps lock on accident LOL joyce_nr: yes I breed black Pugs Rueger: I do show joyce but I only sell to pet homes sheka_nr: i breed for my companinon..and only sell to close family ( my mom, sister, brother est..) joyce_nr: I sell mostly to pet homes also and keep best for PHChristy: Joyce, what if you had a different breed, though? what if you bred, say, Golden Retrievers? What if you were breeding for obedience or for seeing eye dogs? joyce_nr: myself sheka_nr: *companinonship joyce_nr: I do; breed for show and obedience joyce_nr: I can see breeding for pets with Goldens as there joyce_nr: are so many out there PHChristy: ok... but would it matter if a great obedience dog were a show champion in a breed like Goldens, where they do a lot of work? sheka_nr: i hav a golden! :) dont breed him tho joyce_nr: of course not Rueger: ah I do not show in conformation anymore though PHChristy: when I say "breeding for pets," I don't just mean not showdogs. WhiteGold_nr: I have a question: Do you feel that you can have a breeding quality dog, but it's not show quality? PHChristy: I mean not testing your breed in any venue, be it the field or obedience or conformation or work joyce_nr: some pe;ople just breed for pets to sell and make joyce_nr: money PHChristy: WhiteGold, yes, I do.... Rueger: yes white gold!!!!! PHChristy: joyce, absolutely true! PHChristy: Hi there GAC! Hello Winnie! Welcome to Dog Breeding Chat! Tonight's topic is "Breeding For Pets - can it be ethical?" Rueger: hey winnie GAChesters: Haroo room! sheka_nr: Haroo! lol PHChristy: I agree, breeding ot make money is never ethical. These are living beings, not things. WINNIE_nr: HI THERE EVERYONE WINNIE_nr: sorry for shouthing then! WhiteGold_nr: if the dog isn't good enough (conformation wise), to be shown, why would it be good to breed? joyce_nr: I have people call me and want to view dogs - they think it is walmart PHChristy: WhiteGold... couple of reaSONS I can think of PHChristy: Hi berta! Welcome to Dog Breeding Chat! Tonight's topic is "Breeding For Pets - can it be ethical?" Rueger: White gold often it is not a conformation question but maybe color PHChristy: WhiteGold, one, a non-showable animal because they had an injury as a puppy Rueger: or maybe size Rueger: or maybe injury PHChristy: Two, if they aren't showable because of some idiotic INCORRECT show ring prejudice, such as color WINNIE_nr: breeding for pets is ethical...we helping the rare breeds to survive sheka_nr: i sell pets..to my close family only though..but i still charge them, only 50$ im not gonna push it..Lol..My mom refused to pay.she gave me the I RAISED U!! I CArRIED U AROUND RFOR 9 MONTHS AND U CANT GIVE ME A DOG!! SPEECH Rueger: I think different breeds have different ways to determine this PHChristy: or if the standard has been changed in a way you don't agree with, and you are perhaps breeding for work (hunting, herding etc) WINNIE_nr: sheka...chill out! PHChristy: Look at GSDs.... WINNIE_nr: dog breeds need help to sruvive in this global climate wouldnt you all agree? PHChristy: not everyone in the breed agrees with the American showring standard Rueger: exactly christy and in my breed I am the hold out on the change of standard and I no longer can show in conformation but why would that mean my dogs are not good? PHChristy: Winnie, I think our breeds are precious and should be preserved PHChristy: and I think that people of high standards of ethical behavior can have a sincere disagreement with what is a good dog WINNIE_nr: phchristy...so true...breeds are so precious and they are part of the dog heritage of the world PHChristy: when the Lab standard was changed ten or so years ago, many breeders stayed with the English standard PHChristy: their dogs can't win in the US show ring... but I still consider them ethical Rueger: and I can add to this right now that why have written standards if they can be changed at will? PHChristy: and in fact, by preserving these traits that are currently unfashionable, they may end up HELPING their breed in the future WINNIE_nr: we need congress to change the laws so we can do what needs to be done to save the dogs PHChristy: Winnie, I'd like congress to stay out of it, actually GAChesters: Change what laws Winnie? sheka_nr: lol berta: I think if more thought would go into breeding to a standard instead of changing the standards to fit what is "winning" there would be no reason to breeding for a herding sheltie or a Dobe capable of doing what it was bred for PHChristy: the federal government SUPPORTS puppy mills, I'd like them to stop WINNIE_nr: phchristy congress needs to support the dogs then the rest of the world can folllow PHChristy: berta, very true - in an ideal world
PHChristy: which last I noticed we don't
sheka_nr: i NEVER buy from pet stores!
WhiteGold_nr: I saw an ad, that said in the litter (no injuries involved), that they had pets, breeding quality, and show quality
PHChristy: Winnie, what would you like congress to do, exactly?
WINNIE_nr: dogs are our national animal and they deserve the rights of humans...in fact even more rights than murderes
PHChristy: well, our national animal is actually the bald eagle
WINNIE_nr: they deserve constitutional rights the same as law abiding americans
Rueger: hmm winnie I never heard dogs were our natioanl animal
PHChristy: I'm willing to turn the country over to dogs anytime, actually. They couldn't possibly do worse.
GAChesters: Should they vote winnie?
Rueger: maybe we could give them the right to vote
PHChristy: folks, let's stay on topic.... thanks!
WINNIE_nr: dogs are not bald eagles...t hey are good loving fluffy pups...they deserve citizenship
PHChristy: we're discussing the ethics of breeding for pets
WINNIE_nr: i agree
sheka_nr: The other day i was doing comunity work, for some extra hours cleaning by a lake...i opened a trash bag that was on the shore..gues wut was in it..A DEAD DOG
PHChristy: I feel that the toy breeds also have a special situation
Rueger: what is that christy?
GAChesters: How so Christy?
WINNIE_nr: without citizenship dogs will be used and abused dont u all agree
?
sheka_nr: how christy?
PHChristy: few of them have any function other than being a companion animal. It can be argued that is their work. Is it any less ethical to produce a pet lapdog than a herding dog?
sheka_nr: companionship is a job!
WINNIE_nr: lapsdogs still serve humans....i say lets go one step further and give dogs the VOTE
Rueger: christy many of the breeds in the herding group never did actually herd so they cannot herd now
GAChesters: Well as a toy breeder, I still strive to produce a dog that could physically do the job that they originally were bred to do. However, I want them to be excellent companions also
WhiteGold_nr: all the dogs in the pound can provide companionship, more don't need to be bred just for that reason
berta: What do you mean Rueger?
PHChristy: if a breeder were producing companion animals, doing genetic testing, screening homes, taking back puppies, offering guarantees.... temperament testing... but not showing... would that necessarily be unethical?
Rueger: and when we think about it in todays society how many people actually own sheep anyway
Rueger: berta take shelties for example what they were actually bred for was to keep the sheep and birds and other animals out of the crofters gardens not actually herd sheep
sheka_nr: i dont think so christy
PHChristy: WhiteGold, I understand - and I got my heart dog from the pound. But why wouldn't someone who wants a companion, want one with a known history, health guarantee, etc... all things you cannot get from a pound puppy?
GAChesters: Hard to say Christy. In our world with our tiny gene pool although it's not a popular view, I think we need a few ethical pet breeders to keep up with the demand for companions.
berta: But Rue that doesn't mean they shouldn't be capable of doing it/
PHChristy: now, if a breeder is just producing pets to make money.....
Rueger: christy I believe what you just described can be a very ethical breeder
PHChristy: or to fill a market demand....
WhiteGold_nr: most backyard breeders don't do any kind of testing
PHChristy: or is lazy or careless and doesn't do genetic testing, pedigree analysis, offer guarantees, etc... then whether they show or not, they are not IMO ethical
PHChristy: WhiteGold, that's right
Rueger: berta no not incapable but not bred for and being capable and being bred for are two differnet things
berta: I agree
sheka_nr: Like..Thoses TIny Yorkies for example..here in Miami they jus crashed a puppy mill FULL OF THEM
PHChristy: I am not talking about bybs, but about serious breeders who choose to breed pets
WhiteGold_nr: I have yet to see one christy
PHChristy: I believe there are VERY few breeders like that out there
sheka_nr: IM ONE
PHChristy: I think this might be entirely theoretical, in fact.
GAChesters: There are Christy, and in my breed I know of one such breeder
Rueger: I am sure there are some breeders who fit this christy
PHChristy: sheka - what genetic testing do you do on your dogs?
berta: I'm very happy to place the majority of my pups in pet homes........ they are in the main better homes than show homes
sheka_nr: I do it because i hav alot of room in my home..and love the breed
GAChesters: She consistently infuriates the "show" breeders cuz she undercuts a lot of their prices
PHChristy: there are plenty of unethical show breeders
WhiteGold_nr: sure there are
PHChristy: I know show breeders I wouldn't let hold my dog at ringside while I went to the bathroom
GAChesters: But she does offer guarantees and tests her animals. She keeps them in her home etc and generally does fulfill a need inour breed
berta: You betcha
Rueger: berta I personally think tht the primary job for a dog today is to be a good companion first a show dog second even my own show dogs are pets first
GAChesters: Mine also Reuger
PHChristy: to me, a show home is just a home where they'll show the dog, it's no different than a pet home
GAChesters: AFter all I have to live with my dogs here in my house under my feet all day
PHChristy: my standards are exactly the same whether the dog will be shown or not
Rueger: so are we not all in actuality doing just what is being described
sheka_nr: my show dog..was a pet.we went to see a dog show together..they said hed be a great show dog..so we show in our spare time
PHChristy: Rueger, I don't think so
WhiteGold_nr: I OFA hips and elbows,CERF my dogs eyes every year, thyroid test, cardiac test, and never breed a dog under 2.
berta: Obviously I do show and compete with my dogs but I have contact with the homes where all my "other" pups went and more than a couple could have finished.
PHChristy: I think there is GREAT value in testing our breeding program in some objective arena, be it the show ring or work or herding tests or field trials etc
PHChristy: to me, someone who is producing pets doesn't do those things
GAChesters: Hey even the best "show" breeder at times does produce pets.....LOL
PHChristy: if they do those things IMO they are not breeding for pets
PHChristy: they are breeding for work or show or obedience, and producing pets as well
sheka_nr: HEY SHORTI
PHChristy: Hello shortI! Welcome to Dog Breeding Chat! Tonight's topic is "Breeding For Pets - can it be ethical?"
PHChristy: sheka, what genetic testing do you do on your dogs?
Rueger: christy what I am saying is I believe we all breed for good companions as well as show quality
WhiteGold_nr: most of my litters are pets. Even with all the careful screening, and pedigree reserach you are lucky to get 1 or 2 show prospects
PHChristy: Rueger, I think that ethical breeders do that
GAChesters: Well this breeder I referred to before recently acquired a CH stud dog for her breeding program.....she still breeds for pets and states that on her website
shorti: hi
sheka_nr: I forgot the name christy..DARN IT! i always forget it...UmMM..it pretty popular..hold on lemme get the files
Rueger: well I do ofa,cerf, thyroid, and ekg's
sheka_nr: There we go!! Evreything ruger said exepy Cerf
Rueger: sheka what breed do you have?
sheka_nr: Bichon and Golden retrievers
sheka_nr: Its a past time..1 of my dogs will only hav to have pupies once
WhiteGold_nr: how many people who OFA do both elbows and hips on all their breeding dogs?
sheka_nr: me..
sheka_nr: Only for my goldens tho
Rueger: white gold in my breed we just do hips
WhiteGold_nr: what breed?
Rueger: shelties
sheka_nr: Golden retreiver
PHChristy: Hi< JudyAnn! Welcome to Dog Breeding Chat! Tonight's topic is "Breeding For Pets - can it be ethical?"
sheka_nr: My bichons dont really need it
berta: Certain breeds have more elbow problems than others and with certain breeds we have the ability to Optigen test as well
Judy Ann_nr: Hello, folks. I thought I was logging onto a forum for Papillons. Had a question to ask.
WhiteGold_nr: there is a lot of elbow dysplasia out there many people only certify half of the dog
berta: Bichons have hip dsyplasia why do you think they don't need it? Because they're smaller dogs
sheka_nr: my friend has papions
sheka_nr: No..I do hipd for my bichons not elbows
joyce_nr: You do not know if you have hip dysplasie unless
berta: sorry misunderstood
joyce_nr: you xpray so how can you say you don't have it
PHMowgli: Wow busy night
berta: Hi Mow
WhiteGold_nr: unless you are checking for it, you can't say you don't have the problem
joyce_nr: I x-ray hips and elbows or do not breed
PHMowgli: hey everyone
PHChristy: I just looked at Bichon stats on OFA
GAChesters: Hi Mow
PHChristy: and they actually do not have a problem with HD or ED
PHMowgli: but with some breeds elbow dysplasia is not something to worry about
sheka_nr: I dont x ray alot..i do it once a year for all my dogs ( hps and elbows)
joyce_nr: I test all breeding stock
WhiteGold_nr: bichon's have a lot of elbow dysplasia
PHMowgli: sheka why would you x-ray yrly?
sheka_nr: My vet told me 2..
PHChristy: WhiteGold, not according to the OFA website, though
Judy Ann_nr: May I ask this question. So many here they probably know. Dog show next week, my first entry. My pap is 6 1/2 yrs old, father a champion, and owners of his kids are wanting me to enter. Now I discover that he may have a missing tooth. Is this going to completely disqualify him for American Bred?
joyce_nr: you ;only have to x-ray once after age 2yrs
WhiteGold_nr: guess I've seen the exceptions at my clinic
PHMowgli: christy if you are on ofa you can see shelties are not high risk for HD or ED either but I do still ofa
PHChristy: Bichons, 97.6 percent of elbows submitted were normal
PHChristy: kaana! Welcome to Dog Breeding Chat! Tonight's topic is "Breeding For Pets - can it be ethical?"
sheka_nr: Darn! MY VET IS ALWAYS RIPPING ME OFF!! i need a new vet!
kaana: hello
GAChesters: Judy it depends on your breed standard. If it callls for ful dentition it might.
sheka_nr: hi kaana
PHChristy: JudyAnn, what GAC said is right - it varies by breed
PHChristy: sheka, how is your vet ripping you off?
PHMowgli: judy it probably won't DQ you but it may penalize you
GAChesters: Also where the missing tooth is located...sometimes they don't spot them if they are in the back, judy
PHChristy: snapdog! Welcome to Dog Breeding Chat! Tonight's topic is "Breeding For Pets - can it be ethical?"
PHMowgli: hey snapdog
sheka_nr: hes making me do xrays for all my dogs once a year..evrey year
WhiteGold_nr: what?
sheka_nr: thats wut i thought u were supposed to do
PHChristy: sheka, that doesn't make any sense and exposes them to a terrible risk
GAChesters: Sheka, thought you said earlier that you don't do elbows on your bichons
PHMowgli: sheka if you OFA you get certs
PHChristy: hi there mastador! Welcome to Dog Breeding Chat! Tonight's topic is "Breeding For Pets - can it be ethical?"
sheka_nr: im talkin goldens here chesters
PHMowgli: hey mast
mastador: hi all
sheka_nr: sorry bout the confusion chester..i always forget to mention wut breed im talkin about
GAChesters: hiya mast
WhiteGold_nr: once you get an OFA cert at 2 yrs, it's good for the life of the dog
Snapdog_nr: Hi -- I probably won't last long -- I'm East Coast and it's bedtime!
kaana: Norfolks here[img id=em-6]
sheka_nr: Does any1 know a good vet in Miami?
mastador: what exactly do u mean by breeding for pet?
WhiteGold_nr: Do you OFA sheka?
sheka_nr: ofa?..
GAChesters: Without regard to show quality or having the dogs shown, mast
PHChristy: mastador, that is partly what we are talking about!
PHMowgli: orthopedic foundation for animals
PHChristy: It's not just about not showing
sheka_nr: Oh yes i OFA white
mastador: thats fine just wanted to be sure
PHMowgli: it is about testing and health of dogs
PHChristy: it's about having a breeding program with the goal of producing companions, instead of show or working or obedience dogs
Judy Ann_nr: Thanks for the info. This is what I found. Please excuse me for crashing your topic! AKC standard: Bite - Teeth must meet in a scissors bite. Faults - Overshot or undershot
WhiteGold_nr: then you get the certificates, right, saying that your dogs is clear
mastador: if that means breeding for less quality I'm aginst
Judy Ann_nr: And this is an interesting topic you have going!
PHChristy: My own personal feeling is that as long as there is some sort of objective outside way of putting your breeidng program to the test....
PHMowgli: hey christy does agility count as show?
PHChristy: JudyAnn, thanks!
GAChesters: Good luck Judy!! Hope he does well for you
sheka_nr: my goldens are companions..i jus bring them to camp and stuff were they can try to herd ducks and things
PHChristy: Agility counts but not as "show"
kaana: my dogs are all OFA and Eye Cerf Bile acid Test and Thyroid done before any breeding takes place
PHChristy: perhaps if someone is doing temperament testing on companion dogs - and CGC
berta: A dog that is not sound and body does not a good agiltiy dog make
PHMowgli: I think all dogs should have CGC or equivalent
PHChristy: there are "tests" like - real life work (search and rescue, police dogs, guide dogs, etc)
berta: that was meant to say sound or mind and body
PHChristy: there are competitive tests like field trials, obedience, etc
PHMowgli: bert I agree
Snapdog_nr: I don't have a problem with breeding for pets IF (and it's a big if) the dogs are healthy, temperamentally stable, sound, look like the breed they're supposed to be
PHChristy: there is conformation testing, which is the show ring
WhiteGold_nr: even people who do agilty should have their dogs OFA'd, (hips & elbows), for jumping
PHChristy: Snapdog, that is pretty much where I stand too
PHChristy: in theory it can be done
PHChristy: in reality, we rarely see it
PHMowgli: hey borzoid
sheka_nr: Some people tell me its bad to let my goldens try herding ( ducks) there OK at it..But some people tell me its wrong to be breeding goldens that do thig other than wut there breed is suposed to do
PHChristy: borzoid! Welcome to Dog Breeding Chat! Tonight's topic is "Breeding For Pets - can it be ethical?"
PHChristy: kismet!!!!! Welcome to Dog Breeding Chat! Tonight's topic is "Breeding For Pets - can it be ethical?"
borzoid: Hi all
sheka_nr: hi borziod
PHMowgli: hey kismet
kismetsighthounds_nr: hello
berta: Especially people who do agility WhiteGold
Snapdog_nr: I do know a few "old timers" who know more about my breed (whippets) than most of us, they no longer show, but still breed good dogs. Hi Kismet!
PHMowgli: yes agility is very hard on hips
PHChristy: OK, let me ask this: If you are breeding Guide Dogs for the Blind, is that ethical?
PHChristy: I think we'd all say "yes"
PHChristy: even though those dogs are not shown
sheka_nr: Yes
PHChristy: right?
PHMowgli: christy well yes and no
sheka_nr: Yes
PHMowgli: and bear with a minute LOL
sheka_nr: the blind need it, more than some dum show people
PHChristy: Mow, what I mean is, is that a valid goal for breeding?
PHMowgli: I am currently pet sitting 2 leader dogs
kismetsighthounds_nr: i certainly don't believe showing is a necessary prerequisite for responsible breeding
berta: yes christy
PHChristy: obviously any individal or group could be ethical or unethical
GAChesters: I just got out my latest AKC gazette. IT says that for 2004 there were 4,546 Goldens registered so far in 2004. How can we need more pets? VS 51 in my breed which isn't even divided by variety....just lumped together
PHChristy: but there is nothing wrong with having Guide Dogs as your GOAL, right?
PHChristy: in and of itself?
sheka_nr: I breed goldens..
PHMowgli: and all of the dogs that do not meet the goals are then placed in pet homes however my problem is they breed their bitches every season for 4 yrs
WhiteGold_nr: I agree kismet, but most BYB are not ethical
PHChristy: Mowgli, yes, but that's practices... I"m talking about a goal
PHChristy: Mesa! Welcome to Dog Breeding Chat! Tonight's topic is "Breeding For Pets - can it be ethical?"
sheka_nr: but only for myslelf and close family..Never for pet trade..is that still bad?
Snapdog_nr: I do think people who know your breed need to see them in some venue (even if it's in your own living room!) to be sure you don't get kennel blind. If you don't compete in something it's easy to forget what your dogs are supposed to look like!
PHMowgli: as a goal I agree great thing but I do not like their practices
PHChristy: so... let's say that the goal of a breeding program, was to produce companion dogs. And say your breed is Pekes.
kismetsighthounds_nr: but just because a person does not show does not automatically place them in the category of byb
GAChesters: good point snap
berta: Yet some repo vets endorse breeding every season
PHChristy: kismet, absolutely
kaana: Hey GAChester..can you let me know how many Norfolks have been reigistered ???I bet yea..no more then 200!!
sheka_nr: I breed goldens as companinons for me and close family..is that still very bad?
PHChristy: is it really different to produce companion Pekes than to produce working border collies?
PHMowgli: aren't pekes just companions anyway per breed standard
PHChristy: Mowgli, yes, that's my point
GAChesters: norfolks so far in 2004 31 and 45 litters
PHChristy: isn't that their "work"?
kaana: thanks
PHMowgli: yes christy
Snapdog_nr: I agree, Christy. Being a pet is the most important job a dog can do.
PHChristy: I still think that all breeders need some kind of objective standard by which to evaluate their breeding program
mastador: right snap
PHChristy: that is what showing dogs was supposed to be, for conformation breeding
WhiteGold_nr: have a cold, and need to turn in, night all
kismetsighthounds_nr: not only that christy but many of the "companion" breeds have changed quite a bit in the past 20 years, due to "fads" in the ring
Mesa_nr: Hi All!
PHChristy: night WhiteGold!
PHChristy: thanks for coming!
WhiteGold_nr: ty
GAChesters: I agree Christy.....whatever venue, confirmation, agility, obedience, guide dog
PHMowgli: I personally breed for dogs who are agile intelligent, and are beautiful even though they do nt meet show standard any longer
Snapdog_nr: Yes, and it's hard to be objective if you don't let other knowlegable people see your dogs. Ah heard that, Kismet!
GAChesters: good point kismet
mastador: friend?
sheka_nr: I BREED GOLDENS BUT ONLY FOR ME AND CLOSE FAMILY...IS THAT STIL BAD? I KNO THERES ALOT OF GOLDENS OUT THERE..BUT IS THAT AREASON FOR ME TO STOP?
sheka_nr: sorry..caps lock..lol
kismetsighthounds_nr: so what about people who abhor the way pekes look today, and want a peke that looks the way pekes did before?
PHChristy: sheka, IMO, yes, since you are asking.
PHChristy: I don't think producing goldens for you and close family amounts to a breeding program.
GAChesters: yes, IMO I agree with Christy
sheka_nr: IMO?...wuts that
borzoid: I agree sheka - You can help your friends and family rescue good dogs if they want pets
PHChristy: kismet, yes! I was talking about that with GSDs especially
PHMowgli: I do breed to a standard byt he way just not the current one
Snapdog_nr: Yes, I used to be in collies, and the show dogs are not at all the old farm collie so many people remember and still want.
PHChristy: and Labs
PHChristy: IMO means "in my opinion"
PHMowgli: snapdog being in shelties I know what you mean LOL
PHChristy: if you take this theoretical pet breeder... the ethical one... they have a GOAL for their breeding program
PHMowgli: and snapdog I still breed to the smaller size shelties
kismetsighthounds_nr: i don't mean to offend anyone but if i ever do get a GSD it would NOT be a showbred one
PHChristy: it's to produce excellent companion dogs
berta: In what way don't your Shelties comply?
GAChesters: sheka with 4,500 goldens registered so far in 2004 , surely there would be an available pet for them to buy without you breeding yours
sheka_nr: y did i pick golden retreivers as my fav breed..coundlt i have picked something less popular... :(..
PHMowgli: berta mine are too small
borzoid: ditto kismet
PHChristy: I agree with kismet 100 percent
borzoid: I would go to europe for one
PHChristy: when I close my eyes, the GSD I see is NOT the American show GSD
PHChristy: not even close
Snapdog_nr: I look at the coats on the showdogs (and remember my own days of grooming grooming grooming!) and think, "What pet home is going to want to deal with that coat??"
GAChesters: sheka, had you picked something less popular, the breeders who have them would not allow them to be bred unless they were evaluated in some venue. That's partly why some breeds are so rare.
berta: AFA GSD I totally agree
PHMowgli: I am sorry but the show shelties of today are what were collies at one time
GAChesters: Me too Christy....the GSDs look crippled now
sheka_nr: Y did i pick golden retreievers..COuldnt i have picked a less popular breed?[img id=em-2]
PHChristy: if a breeder screens their homes, takes puppies back, isn't doing it for the money, has a goal, tests their dogs in some way that is objective.... then I feel that producing companions IS a valid goal, particularly for those breeds that were created as companions
kaana: did a study on the GS,,and over 90% are displastic including the show dogs!
Snapdog_nr: Mowgli, if I ever decide to get a Sheltie, I'll come see you!
PHMowgli: ha ha snapdog LOL
GAChesters: I am not surprised kaana.
kismetsighthounds_nr: i am really torn on the issue because i believe it is *theoretically* possible to ethically breed for pets, but in actual practice i believe the vast majority of people (show or not) have NO business breeding at all
Snapdog_nr: Wow, Kaana, still??? I thought they'd made progress with that!
PHMowgli: well if you ever want another collie i can tell you a breeder of them too LOL
PHChristy: kaana, according to OFA it's 78 percent
kaana: the newifies 98% displastic
Snapdog_nr: LOL, Kismet -- I probably know some of them (this is Sharyn H)
PHChristy: 78 percent GSDs are NORMAL, thatis
kaana: still vety high
PHChristy: so I don't believe that is correct
PHChristy: no, it's not
kaana: ooops...
kismetsighthounds_nr: hi sharon :)
PHMowgli: christy how many shelties
kismetsighthounds_nr: oops sharyn
PHMowgli: hey mesa
Snapdog_nr: Close enough
PHChristy: and Newfies, 71 percent NORMAL
kismetsighthounds_nr: LOL
PHChristy: Shelties.... 95 percent normal
sheka_nr: well..now ill never get to see my absolute favorite..site..my loving dog and her new born pups..
PHChristy: this is hips, from the OFA website
PHMowgli: yep but yet we still OFA LOL
berta: Alot of dogs that xrays don't look good are never sent in so that tilts the results
kaana: the newfie breeders must have improved on their breeding prog.
sheka_nr: ...*sigh*..
PHChristy: berta, that's true
PHMowgli: berta that is very true
GAChesters: I think it's frightening that half of the reg dogs in the sporting group for 2004 are labs. I think show labs would drown with their body weight if they actually did any field work....IMO
berta: I'm pretty sure the Sams aren't in the 90's
kaana: did you know that in England the short legged breeds do NOT get x-rayed..very very few breeders do
PHChristy: GAC, I agree, and so do many lab breeders who resisted the change to their standard and don't breed to it now
PHChristy: Samoyed hips, 88 percent normal
GAChesters: sad because a friend of mine has an actual working lab and gets ignored in the conformation ring
PHMowgli: chesters I have say the leader dogs I am sitting are goldens and boy are they tiny compared to the show goldens
PHChristy: Deerhounds, 100 percent normal
PHMowgli: wow awesome christy
PHChristy: Borzoi, 98 percent normal
berta: okay gotta ask about the Sams............
PHChristy: whippets, 99 percent normal
kismetsighthounds_nr: a fair number of show goldens these days are oversized, or if not oversized they have too much bone for their height
PHChristy: Sams.... 89 percent normal
PHChristy: I agree that obviously bad hip films are probably not submitted
GAChesters: bet manchesters aren't even on there
kismetsighthounds_nr: my mom was a golden person but she has switched breeds
sheka_nr: ill never get to see new born pups again, cuz my breed is to popular..I HATE AIR BUD
berta: Closer than I thought
PHChristy: so these stats are undoubtedly skewed
PHMowgli: yes kismet these leader dogs are tiny to me LOL
kismetsighthounds_nr: goldens were immensely popular way before air bud
sheka_nr: air bud made it worse
kaana: any % for Norfolks? and Norwich?
PHChristy: Manchesters are kind of scary, actually....
PHMowgli: sheka goldens have always been an extremely popular breed
sheka_nr: like 102 dalmations
GAChesters: how so Christy?
PHChristy: they have only had NINE submitted, but only 89 percent normal
sheka_nr: and airbud1..2..3..4..5..and 6
kismetsighthounds_nr: no i don't think so...if anything actual numbers have declined
PHChristy: that's quite a bad record for so few submissions
GAChesters: for hip displasia or legges perthes?
PHMowgli: and air bud did nothing at all like 101 dals
PHChristy: Norfolk, 73 percent normal
sheka_nr: true..101 dals did ALOT of damage
kismetsighthounds_nr: right mowgli
berta: Or Beethovan
kaana: thanks
PHMowgli: right berta
GAChesters: or the taco bell dog....chis
PHChristy: Norwich, 87 percent normal
berta: Oh shoot I can't spell
PHChristy: welcome back borzoid!
borzoid: Hi - was lost my connection and couldn't get back in
PHMowgli: oh yeah the poor chis arfter taco bell
PHChristy: we don't penalize for spelling errors
PHMowgli: WB borz
GAChesters: Christy was that for HD or LP?
sheka_nr: dalmations always are ending up win shelters..most with names like.. Dotty, Lil DIpper , Jewles..and all the other 98 names
borzoid: HI Mowgli
PHMowgli: hey maile
borzoid: how are things?
berta: At least I haven't bounced three times tonight
PHChristy: hello mailepom! Welcome to Dog Breeding Chat! Tonight's topic is "Breeding For Pets - can it be ethical?"
mailepom_nr: Hi everyone=)
sheka_nr: hi mailepom
PHChristy: GAC, HD
borzoid: Hi Pom
PHMowgli: wow that is scary christy
GAChesters: Interesting Christy as the long time breeders swear there has never been a case of HD in MT
PHChristy: interesting, do you know that only EIGHT chis have ever been submitted for HD, and only 16 for ED?
kismetsighthounds_nr: i do believe that one should have a very compelling reason to breed if one has a breed that has huge numbers in rescue
PHMowgli: wow
PHChristy: GAC, it's right on the OFA website
PHChristy: kismet, I think it'sa valid point to consider
Snapdog_nr: Sorry -- had to go do dog shuffling, so I;m a little behind -- trouble with the % normal figures is that people don't send in ones that won't pass, and in the case of my breed, hardly anyone xrays because HD hasn't been established as a problem,
GAChesters: good point kismet
sheka_nr: Well ig2g..tell my neice shell be byin her puppy t the sheler..and im not gonna breed my dogs..i guess shelter dogs need a home more..it kinda feels good adoptin one :)
PHChristy: kismet, but as a breeder whose goal is improving and protecting the breed and its traits... we might have to think about preserving traits that are in danger of being lost, if they aren't occurring in the pool of rescue and pet dogs
PHChristy: Snap, I agree
PHMowgli: hey dogguy nice to see you again tonight
PHChristy: hi dogguy! Welcome to Dog Breeding Chat! Tonight's topic is "Breeding For Pets - can it be ethical?"
kismetsighthounds_nr: locally therescue for labs, cockers, rotties, beagles, dobes and boxers are OVERRUN
borzoid: good for you sheka
dogguy_nr: hi Ph
PHChristy: I don't think there is a one size fits all answer
GAChesters: The breeders of the more rare breeds are very selective where they place dogs. You aren't likely to get an intact animal with full regs unless you show and do all required health certs....that's how they stay out of shelters
kismetsighthounds_nr: christy--that's what i mean by a compelling reason
sheka_nr: Well im off to the shelter early tomorow..Bye all! :D
PHChristy: goodnight sheka!
dogguy_nr: for those who dont know, i have an english mastiff
PHMowgli: kismet some of the breeds are so messed up though they do need some ethical breeders to preserve their breeds
borzoid: nite sheka
berta: Another problem with "top" breeders versus "pet" breeders is that the close linebreeding some do is shrinking the gene pool
Snapdog_nr: I'm not really arguing, Kismet, but those are nearly always badly bred ones. There can still be a shortage of well-bred pets even thought rscue is full. Don't know the answer though. Buyer education, I guess.
PHChristy: berta, yes, we need to preserve genetic diversity in our breeds, not reduce it further
GAChesters: Which is a huge nightmare in an already tiny gene pool bert
Snapdog_nr: Very good point, Berta!
borzoid: That is also a problem with some show breeds - Afghans have a very small gene pool
kismetsighthounds_nr: mowgli---again--the compelling reason :) i'm just pointing out that IMO for Labs wanting to produce good pets isn't a very compelling reason, but then neither is producing a show litter if it isn't a REAL improvement
dogguy_nr: i think i walked into something that i dont know too much about
PHMowgli: berta I agree with you too
PHChristy: yes... and in some rare breeds, such as deerhounds, there really is no pet market
PHMowgli: exactly kismet
PHChristy: our field dogs and show dogs and pets are all the same dogs from the same litters
berta: Some breeders just want to produce a "line" that will be recognized as theirs and don't care how they get ther
berta: e
Snapdog_nr: We've made it a point to *not* use any ROM or ROMX studs or any who are top winners
PHMowgli: dogguy don't worry we all did that tonight LOL
PHChristy: AND we also have a small gene pool that is getting smaller :(
borzoid: what breed Christy
dogguy_nr: i dont breed so im not too infomed on the whole subjext
mailepom_nr: I've noticed that is a huge thing in poms, everyone wants to create a line so everyone linebreeds
dogguy_nr: subject
GAChesters: By choice or chance Christy? Is it because we have not allowed many dogs to get into pet homes and encourage more ppl to want them that way? There are lots of homes for say danes and they are much larger than deers
PHMowgli: and in my breed there is a seperation in conformation and other venue dogs
kismetsighthounds_nr: sharyn---yes the vast majority of the Labs (just for example) in shelters are badly bred but the vast majority still can make WONDERFUL pets
Snapdog_nr: You're still welcome, Dog guy
PHMowgli: hey rouen
borzoid: There is good linebreeding too
Rouen: hi mow
PHChristy: GAC, not in deerhounds.... primarily the elimination of their historical function in Scotland, followed by two world wars, did it
PHChristy: Rouen! Welcome to Dog Breeding Chat! Tonight's topic is "Breeding For Pets - can it be ethical?"
borzoid: but you have to research pedigrees and be willing to introduce new blood when necessary
Rouen: hi christy
PHMowgli: christy yes not much call for dogs to run down deer
PHChristy: deerhounds are not really in trouble due to popular sire syndrome IMO.... but to historical patterns that snuck up on us
GAChesters: What group are they in Christy? Can't even find em in here.....lol
kismetsighthounds_nr: most sighthounds are definitely "boutique" breeds IMO and don't really appeal to or suit the average pet owner
PHChristy: I think we need to think about this NOW, before things get even worse
PHMowgli: ok I don't want to scare everyone off but we need a subject for next week
PHChristy: LOL GAC
Snapdog_nr: You're probably very right, Kismet -- I've just talked to a number of people lately who had major problems with rescues (I DO rescue, so am not knocking it)
Snapdog_nr: Labs may well be an exception since they have such stable temperaments historically.
PHChristy: kismet, I agree... my sis in law wants a rescue dog, I tried to get her to consider a track greyhound, which IMO would be perfect for her lifestyle. And she likes my deerhounds, but won't consider a greyhound.
borzoid: What is the lifespan of the deerhound now? I've heard it's not very long
berta: Only 34 Samoyeds were brought out of Russia so our gene pool is sorta small too
PHChristy: Which I think is a shame.
PHMowgli: any suggestions?
PHChristy: borzoid, really? 10-12 years.
borzoid: That's better than what I keep hearing at the shows
PHChristy: hmmm, ok, next week's topic....
kismetsighthounds_nr: i have started spending a lot of my free time (joke) as a liason between breed rescue and my local animal control, it breaks my heart how many GOOD dogs (including purebreds) are euthanized every week :(
PHChristy: borzoid, the average age of death is 8 and a half
PHChristy: however, if you adjust to remove things like getting hit by a car
PHChristy: or illness at a young age
borzoid: that's more like what I've heard -
PHChristy: if you are looking for a reasonable lifespan for a deerhound, you should expect 10-12 years
PHChristy: no deerhound will die of old age at 8 and a half
GAChesters: oh boy..a whopping 14 deerhounds reg in 2004....no wonder I couldn't find em. And 2 litters. But hey that's up from last year!!
PHMowgli: 12-15 in my breed
PHChristy: I have never had a dog who didn't live until at least 10 and a half, other than one who died young of a kidney infection and one who died of an acident
Snapdog_nr: I know -- we do the same thing, but we don't get all that many purebreds here (rural Virginia) The mixes break my heart though. Fortunately we have the best shelter in the world and they work hard not to euthanize
borzoid: That's too bad - I've been told by some that they would love to get into deerhound but couldn't deal with a short lifespan
GAChesters: Why so few, Christy?
PHChristy: borzoid, and yet, that's the same lifespan as the golden retriever, the second most popular breed in the country!
borzoid: didn't know that
kismetsighthounds_nr: my county is rural too, it's so sad...today i was there and took pics of EIGHTEEN purebreds
PHChristy: GAC.... well, no particular reason, I'd say - there are few deerhounds, few breeders
PHMowgli: christy i would think itis samelifespan and most large breed dogs
Snapdog_nr: Good lord, Kismet! What kinds?
GAChesters: sheesh Christy but 1 litter registered for 2003?
berta: HUGE dogs.................. :-)
PHChristy: borzoid, however, I would say that Borzois do live longer than deerhounds on average
PHChristy: GAC, that's impossible
PHMowgli: kismet and not one purebred in my shelter all yr
Snapdog_nr: Sighthounds can be tough to live with if they're not your cup of tea and deerhounds are big!
GAChesters: oh sorry...month of August
PHMowgli: other than 12 lost pets who were claimed within 24 hrs
borzoid: Borzois live 11-14 years on the average
PHChristy: it's not unheard of for a 'zoi to make it to 15.. not common, but not unheard of
kismetsighthounds_nr: labs, beagles,a JRT, smooth fox terrier, 3 bloodhounds, a husky, a basset, a GSD and a boxer
PHChristy: but for deerhounds, that would be unbelievable. It has happened, but once a decade or so
PHChristy: at best
PHChristy: a 13 or 14 year old deerhound is really extraordinary
borzoid: IW's are bigger but I think they do 11 years also
PHChristy: not so with 'zois
Snapdog_nr: We don't get purebreds much either but fortunately we don't have many commercial breeders or pet shops around here.
GAChesters: Christy--how are they with little dogs mauling them? lol
kaana: all mine make it till 16 1/2
PHChristy: GAC, LOL, most are ok
GAChesters: Not too many big dogs could handle my little mob....LOL
kismetsighthounds_nr: i would estimate 1/3 of our dogs are pb, lots of hunting dogs
PHChristy: ok folks... it's time to switch to part two of our DogHobbyist doubleheader, SHOWDOG CHAT! But before we go, let's try to come up with a topic for next week's dog breeding chat. Does anyone have a suggestion?
Snapdog_nr: Yes, we do get some purebred hounds -- Plott hounds mostly.
GAChesters: Why isn't purebred rescue doing more with those dogs then?
PHMowgli: wow kismet that is sad
kismetsighthounds_nr: oh i forgot there was one little chi too
kismetsighthounds_nr: GA--because they are mostly FULL
Snapdog_nr: Some of the rescues are just plain overloaded. Not enough foster homes
PHChristy: if not, Morgan and I will think of something :)
GAChesters: how sad
GAChesters: how about compelling reasons to breed a popular breed?
PHChristy: thanks, everyone, for coming - we'll definitely repeat this topic as it went really well.
kismetsighthounds_nr: LOL
PHChristy: GAC, I like that!
borzoid: I'm fostering right now
PHMowgli: hmm christy will you be willing to take e-mailed suggestiond LOL
berta: Virginia has an anit rescue climate the Samoyed rescue down there had to quit
PHMowgli: oh good one GAC
Snapdog_nr: In whippets we have over 100 "official" rescuers though and few rescue dogs. We're lucky.
PHChristy: Mow, absolutely... email me at PHChristy (at) pethobbyist.com if you have any suggestions
kismetsighthounds_nr: i have 3 foster puppies right now, purebred pointers
PHChristy: dogs (at) pethobbyist.com also comes to me
kismetsighthounds_nr: i know whippets are SO lucky
PHMowgli: Welcome to Show Dog Chat!!!!
borzoid: OK is this dog showing or dog breeding topics you want Christy
berta: any brags??? lol
kismetsighthounds_nr: in fact, the pointer puppies are demanding my attention so i must go :)
PHMowgli: BOTH BORZOID lol
kismetsighthounds_nr: night everyone!
Snapdog_nr: Should numbers in rescue affect your breeding decisions? might be a good topic for the future.
Snapdog_nr: I gotta go too -- past bedtime!
borzoid: I would be very interested in whelping and caring for the pregnant bitch
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