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Transcript: Dog Breeding Chat Tuesday, Oct. 25, 2005: PAWS Legislation Update PHChristy: Tonight we'll be doing an update on the federal PAWS legislation, scheduled for a hearing on Nov. 8. While we are waiting for our guests, how is everyone tonight? Rueger: good christy and you? MESAshelties_nr: great.....but wet Rueger: rain here too and windy PHChristy: it's quite chilly here tonight PSF_nr: Good here - just finished reading that Santorum is not going to allow any opponants of paws to speak at the hearing KenLV: We even got some rain in Vegas today PHChristy: 41 this morning when I alked the dogs PHChristy: PSF, yes, so I see PSF_nr: what a joke... PHMorgan: Greetings folks@ Rouen: hi morgan PHMorgan: Whaznew? KenLV: Rick wantstomakeit look like everyone is in favor of his mess KenLV: Hi Morgan andMow Rouen: wb mow PHChristy: Hi Morgan!! Hi Mowgli!! PHMowgli: hey everyone!! PHChristy: Morgan, there is going to be a hearing on PAWS... CLOSED to dissenting voices! in Congress on Nov 8, Linda and Fred came by to update us PHChristy: I am reading a press release about its effect on hunting dogs PHMorgan: CLOSED? that's really useful PHMowgli: itis to them Morgan PHChristy: yup, six speakers, all of them supporters of PAWS PHChristy: not one single opposing voice dropfred: okay, am back. PHMorgan: How can they have it so one-sided? dropfred: first, I want to talk about the planned bus trip and demonstration we have going on. I sent the email to christy tonight so she will have the info. KenLV: PAWS - People against wrong senators PSF_nr: I like that one! PHChristy: many rescue groups, hobby breeders, hunting dog owners .... many parent breed clubs, are all against it. The Cat Fanciers Association too PHMowgli: I am for that version Ken LOL PHMorgan: There are hundreds of dog groups against it KenLV: Exotic people ar against it too dropfred: 57.3% of akc clubs PHMowgli: wow linda I expected higher than that PHChristy: Mow, not all took a position dropfred: but better than half. PHChristy: the remaining clubs aren't in SUPPORT, most just didn't take a position dropfred: some are afraid to take a postition. PHChristy: I know the Scottish Deerhound Club of America didn't take a position Rouen: hi val PSF_nr: some are plain scared that AKC will strong arm them if they do - like not approving shows etc. KenLV: Three largeclubs have notdeclared there side yet, when they dothefigure will be around 76% PHMowgli: ASSA did not take a position either PSF_nr: what three clubs would that be Ken? PHChristy: Hey there Val! Welcome to Dog Breeding Chat! We are getting an update on a hearing on PAWS right now! PHValkyrie: Ok. thanks KenLV: BRB I have to lok it up in my files dropfred: anytime we're ready.....I really want to talk about this bus trip and what we need and ARE doing. dropfred: quiet...does this mean we're ready now>? LOL. PHMowgli: I'm ready LOL PSF_nr: is this the same bus trip that was discussed on NAIA? dropfred: November 8th. PHChristy: oh yes, go ahead please! dropfred: probably, but some here most likely don't know about it. PHChristy: I thought Ken was looking something up, sorry KenLV: One club isthe National Beagle Club...they meet Nov 11th PHChristy: please just go ahead Linda PHMowgli: he is christy the three clubs names dropfred: wait for Ken...he is giving the three clubs now. PHChristy: ok! dropfred: ken, type....lol. KenLV: Couldonly find the onew....go ahead Linda dropfred: ok...bus trip discussion PSF_nr: thanks ken dropfred: nov. 8th. dropfred: bus coming up from Texas with banners all over it...no paws, etc. dropfred: we need people from up here to go to DC also. dropfred: and we need contributions for same. dropfred: think we are shot 2500. for diesel fuel. PHChristy: when you say "up here" Linda? dropfred: I sent christie the link for the info to paypal and all the other info that you might want to know regarding the trip. PHChristy: where do you mean? dropfred: oops....Pa./ ne area. dropfred: We can drive to DC. dropfred: Va/Pa/ all of us in this ne corridor ... PHChristy: here is the link: http://www.repo-pac.com/ dropfred: the bus is bringing people all the way from Texas and other states. SammyLover_nr: hello dropfred: Logos are being made for the bus so it will be a moving billboard all the way from Texas to DC dropfred: Hi Sammyu KenLV: Hi Sam PHChristy: Hi, Sammy! Welcome to Dog Breeding Chat! We're having an update on the Nov 8 hearing in Congress on the PAWS legislation Rouen: hi SL
PHChristy: sorry, I'd lost my greet when I copied that link and I had to type that out
SammyLover_nr: okay-- this is good so far PAWS is interesting
PHChristy: so Linda, what can people not in Texas or PA or poins between?
boomer_nr: what route is the bus from TX taking?
PHChristy: points
SammyLover_nr: tired of chat rooms full of
SammyLover_nr: nothing
PSF_nr: Will the bus have room to pick up people along the way and if so, what states will the bus be stopping at?
dropfred: also, I got a brilliant brain storm today while talking to colby homer on the phone
PHChristy: Sammy, we try not to do that here
dropfred: not sure of route just yet. in the works.
PHChristy: Hi, danwilldn! Hi, Mutant2! Welcome to Dog Breeding Chat! We're having an update on the Nov 8 hearing in Congress on the PAWS legislation
PHChristy: what is that, Linda?
dropfred: brain storm?
SammyLover_nr: So what do you all chat about oin here
SammyLover_nr: do you all show your dogs in conformation
dropfred: well, you all know how HSUS and PETA use pictures to gain monetary donations from the unsuspecting public?
PHChristy: Hi, SpringA! Welcome to Dog Breeding Chat! We're having an update on the Nov 8 hearing in Congress on the PAWS legislation
danwilldn: Hello!
dropfred: Hi new arrivals.
SpringA_nr: Hello
PHMorgan: It is unfortunate that photos showing well-adjusted happy dogs do not elicit the same reaction as photos from HSUS and PETA
PHChristy: Sammy, we do have a showdog chat right after this one, right now we're discussing the "PAWS" legislative update and the upcoming hearing in Congress
dropfred: I sent a MESS of pictures out of the RESCUE group in Arkansas that is now being re rescued.
SammyLover_nr: thank you for the inforamtion
dropfred: and asking people to write AGAIN to their reps/senators/congress and INCLUDE those pictures so they can see
dropfred: Government Rescue at work.
danwilldn: Well, they need to support their position, so...
PHChristy: I was looking for a Virginia Pom rescue for a user today, and they have a listing on their website that they are operatring on a referral basis only due to state legislation that regulates rescue groups ... similar to what PAWS would do on the federal level
PHChristy: it's not theoretical for them
dropfred: what do you think Ken?
PHMowgli: Christy when did Va get that?
PHChristy: Mow, it's been almost two years now
KenLV: We have to keep bombarding the legislators in Wahsington....enough pounding they may get the message right.
PHChristy: you can ask PHScales about it, she runs a reptile rescue in VA, she has a lot to say about it
PHMowgli: wow I guess our sheltie rescue just cheats then
PHChristy: a lot of rescue groups are trying to fly under the radar
dropfred: we all need to write to our senators/congressmen/women again and include the pictures of the rescue group that was given permission to take all those dogs to Arkansas (by hsus) just to let them starve and die out in the open.
PHChristy: or they run their rescue out of boarding kennels, which some rescues do
dropfred: matter of fact, there is a headless dog there, as well.
PHMowgli: oh ok christy
PHMorgan: Yes, I saw that photo.
PHMowgli: OMg Linda
dropfred: they said they thought it had rabies so they cut off its head to send for testing.
PHMorgan: Yeah, OK right
dropfred: and left the body there.
PHChristy: the problem is, and we discussed this last time, most people (in government and the general public) don't believe that's the intent of the legislation, so they figure "they" will "fix it." They think it's just a bad wording problem, not a hidden (not so hidden) agenda
dropfred: this is the government rescue group, folks.
Mutant2_nr: BUT, if we send photos of the "rescue" horror, won't that only add fuel to the fire of 'no need for more pets?"
PHChristy: they don't believe us when we point out the problems
PHChristy: Very few people understand the HSUS issue either
dropfred: which is why, if we send out letters WITH THOSE pictures of the government approved rescue work...we can gain the confidence of those listening.
PHChristy: Hi, SmoothCollie! Welcome to Dog Breeding Chat! We're having an update on the Nov 8 hearing in Congress on the PAWS legislation
SammyLover_nr: If this is totally off the topic please ignore... How does PAWS differe from the SPCA?
dropfred: I believe it will show those that don't know what they are voting for, that the government is not equipped to deal with rescue.
dropfred: we need to send them a message to give dogs/animals back to the hobbyists and keep the polititions out.
PHChristy: PAWS is legislation, SPCA is usually a name adopted by shelters and humane societies on a local or regional basis
KenLV: PAWS will doaway with all large rescue groups...then we will be stuck withgovernment rescue
Mutant2_nr: BUT, rescue would NOT be needed if (IF) breeding were curtailed. . .see where I'm comeing from?
boomer_nr: so how do we convince the general public that there are those with a hidden agenda behind PAWS?
PHChristy: Mutant, well, it still would in hurricanes, for instance
PHChristy: boomer, I am not sure about that. People usually tune out when someone claims there's a hidden agenda in something they don't really understand
dropfred: HSUS managed to take many dogs in the middle of the night in NO....they just disappeared....off to their private labs.
PHMowgli: mutant but it does not stop your neighbor from breeding foo foo every season and producing mutts
PHChristy: hi, ode2! Welcome to Dog Breeding Chat! We're having an update on the Nov 8 hearing in Congress on the PAWS legislation
PHValkyrie: People would have to stop dying too.
PHChristy: Then again I'm a huge pessimist and cynic
Mutant2_nr: BUT there just would NOT be the numbers involved. I don't think we can bench mark Katina and use that as 'norm"
PSF_nr: not to mention it will legislate the responsible breeders right out of the very breeds that they seek to preserve!
KenLV: Everyone iswelcometoemailme and I willsent you a 2 page write up on PAWS> They generalpublicis getting the message in Vegas.
dropfred: Mutant, I understand where you are coming from, but you must understand that the objective of the entire bill is to eliminate animals all together. This is just the first step.
ode2adream: Hello :)
SammyLover_nr: why are we importing dogs from other countries when we have so many dogs in shelters already here in the US?
PHChristy: Linda, I think Mutant understands that, but is raising the point that the general public doesn't
dropfred: My people have Paws posted all over harrisburg.
Mutant2_nr: Fred, I understand that part, my question is in the 'wisdom' of sending along those photos from Oregon was it?
danwilldn: Does anyone know the AKC stance as of now? On our Show Cardi list, they seemed to be saying that AKC wanted to make some changes to address concerns. Does anyone know if that is true?
dropfred: the general public does not know and that is why we all need to teach them.
dropfred: yes, I do.
PSF_nr: good question - why are SHELTERS importing dogs Puerto Rico (SATO dogs) to bring into shelters and sell....
dropfred: re: akc.
boomer_nr: how are you reaching the general public in LV?
dropfred: mutant, arkansas.
PHMowgli: general public in Michigan does not even know what PAWS is
PHChristy: Dan, right now AKC is supporting PAWS, at least, that's its official position. Most of the parent clubs either oppose it or have not taken a stand.
dropfred: HSUS collects millions with pictures...so does PETA.
PHChristy: Mowgli, here too. No one knows about it at all
PSF_nr: AKC "thinks" that they can make some changes - what they don't seem to understand is that Santorum and the rest "got what they wanted" - which is the blessing of the AKC... they (Santorum and the rest) are DONE with the AKC...
dropfred: we need to bite a few heartstrings in congress.
PHChristy: HSUS and PETA have machines that took decades to build
dropfred: hey carol dry.
danwilldn: Actually, I am Nancy, it's just my screen name!:)
rsngstr101: hey
dropfred: welcome to the chat.
KenLV: Sammy don't letthe wording in PAWS throw you off track. It says it will curtailimports and internet sales.
PHChristy: Hi there rsngster101! Welcome to Dog Breeding Chat! We're having an update on the Nov 8 hearing in Congress on the PAWS legislation
SammyLover_nr: Well as an FYI-- I know the Samoyed Club of America contributed a large sum to the Katrina hurricane relief
rsngstr101: thanks I am glad to be here
PHChristy: Sammy, so did many clubs.
dropfred: she is a minpin person...God love her for coming tonight...thank you carol
Mutant2_nr: The general public does NOT give a darn about breeding or not breeding. . . too concerned where gas money is coming from. . .
PSF_nr: as it SHOULD be!
KenLV: Not achance ..the underlinig issue isto remove the animalsfrom homes or drive peopletohighpricedcommercial breeders
PHMowgli: Mutant right
Mutant2_nr: hey the West Coast contingencey has arrived, hello risingstar
ode2adream: And there is always irreputable breeders and pet shops to by from. :P
PHChristy: Hi there americat! Welcome to Dog Breeding Chat! We're having an update on the Nov 8 hearing in Congress on the PAWS legislation
dropfred: the general public contributes to hsus and peta and ddal when they get those pictures of starving dogs in the mail.
PSF_nr: that's true
PSF_nr: it's an emotional issue
dropfred: julie, are you incognito?
rsngstr101: yes and I believe that your Idea Linda of using those "Rescue" pictures as ammo against the Paws is a great one
PHMowgli: and the general public believes pet shops buy their puppies from private breeders not puppy mills too!!
Mutant2_nr: the general public 'believes' in HSUS and PETA is just an irritatnt
ode2adream: so true, Mow. :P
Mutant2_nr: incognito? nope, it's me Mutant. :LMAO
dropfred: but they get donations by the millions.
rsngstr101: Hey Mutant did you tie Julie up?
dropfred: from the unsuspecting GENERAL public
americat_nr: Hi all ... I'm a cat breeder who is involved in rescue and legislative issues with my registry. I'm too here to discuss how to defeat PAWS which will really affect animal rescue
PHMowgli: the general public believes breeders are the cause of pet over population
SammyLover_nr: What is the difference between a puppy mill and a HVB?
Mutant2_nr: nope, Dutchie and Bizzy tied 'er up
PSF_nr: HSUS hides behind all the hard work of the local animal shelters that "DO" work hard...
PHMorgan: It would be nice if they would put that money into the dogs and not into their ad campaigns
dropfred: Hi Julie. I thought that was you......mutant....lol.
dropfred: I can't tell u 2 how much it means to have you here tonight.
ode2adream: Lets face it..the general public doesn't look into what they are supporting. They take the word of Hsus and peta as someone doing good.
rsngstr101: so so tell us about this trip to Washington DC
PHChristy: There is a very good general statement explaining why this bill is bad news for rescue groups and for dogs and pet owners on the website of Rhodesian Ridgeback Rescue, Inc., the official rescue arm of the RR Club of America: http://www.ridgebackrescue.org/special/opposed_to_PAWS.html
KenLV: HSUSfailed in LA because they never operated a shelter before anditsjhowed
PHMowgli: propaganda Morgan not even ad campaigns
Mutant2_nr: ok fire it up
PHChristy: Hiya Clicker! Welcome to Dog Breeding Chat!
dropfred: PSF...you are right about that.
Clicker59: Hi Christie
KenLV: Hey Clicker
Clicker59: Hi everybody
Clicker59: Ken any updateds pon Paws?
dropfred: christie, can you repost that info for the bus trip to dc for rising star?
KenLV: That;'s what we are talking about Clicker
dropfred: I have something to tell you all re: akc position.
rsngstr101: I am all ears
Clicker59: Ken cool
Rouen: so the PAWS bill as far as dogs go is all in favor of BYBs, did I read it correctly?
PHChristy: Here is the Cat Fanciers Association take on it: http://www.cfainc.org/exhibitors/alert-US-PAWS-rescue.html
dropfred: carol, christie will repost the bus trip info for you
rsngstr101: Thanks
PHChristy: and here is the link about the bus trip again: http://www.repo-pac.com/
Rouen: hi mini
Mutant2_nr: A large part of the problem is the general opinoin that a breeder is a breeder is a breeder, and that we are ALL bad,
rsngstr101: yes Maam,
PHChristy: Hi there Mini! Welcome to Dog Breeding Chat, we're having an update on the Nov 8 congressional committee hearing on PAWS
danwilldn: Amen to that, Mutant!
MiniSch_nr: Hi
PHChristy: <---- very very bad
PHMowgli: I agree mutant although at times I think we can all be bad LOL
dropfred: I know there will be a hush in the room now, since I am going to TELL about akc and why and how they got to support paws.
SammyLover_nr: What is the difference between a backyard breeder and someone like myself who is soon to have a champion sammy that i would like to have 1 or two litters with should she clear all her testing?
Mutant2_nr: BYB'ers are part of the problem in that they generally sell w/o a spay/neuter contract and the new owners end up producing mutts, that end up in the shelters
danwilldn: Hush!
PHChristy: I would say that MOST people don't think breeders are bad... they think the bad ones and the good ones are interchangeable, they don't know there ARE bad breeders, or if they do, they think they are filthy puppy mills in rural areas
PHMowgli: Sammy the testing and the concern for your bred
dropfred: It seems that akc got involved by being blindsided to begin with.
Mutant2_nr: Linda, let 'er rip about AKC involvment with PAWS
dropfred: they never saw the official bill from the beginning but according to what they were told, thought it would be best to support santorum.
PHChristy: Sammy, well, we could argue all night about what makes a breeder an ethical breeder. For me, it boils down to WHY they breed. If it's to preserve and improve their chosen breed, they're a good breeder. Not necessarily SUCCESSFUL at it, but ethical.
dropfred: they thought it would be easier to support and try to change the wording to favor rescue/dog hobby breeders than it was to oppose.
danwilldn: Sammy, when my Sophia was preg, so was a little 11 mo old JRT. They also had a 5 mo old JRT and could not imagine how she got preg. That is a BYB, but there are many other variations just as bad.
PHChristy: since we can't actually see into people's heads and hearts and know their true motivations,we have to look at their actions instead.
rsngstr101: that is what they get for thinking
americat_nr: BYBs also don't guarantee health, usually sell without a contract, sell underaged puppies and kittens, don't give shots, no medical care at all
dropfred: Santorum has seniority and they thought they had NO chance to beat him. The old addage...if you can't beat them, join them....and try to make changes.
dropfred: they are still trying to make changes and from what I have been told, just recently,
PHChristy: and yes, if BYBs DID sell on contracts and do medical care etc, that wouldn't necessarily make them into non-BYBs... it would just make them better BYBs. IMO and really off topic.
danwilldn: Americat - and the general public thinks they are getting a better animal, as it is not "inbred"
SammyLover_nr: well I am not here to argue...just get some good info and maybe play Devil's Advocate every now and then
dropfred: santorum is acceptable to the changes of the wording, however there is still no guarantee.
PHChristy: well, I have no problem disagreeing with Santorum, I've never agreed with him on anything yet, LOL ... but I do wonder at the GOP falling for all this AR stuff. I feel like I'm in bizarro world.
dropfred: here is the BIG word, guys.
Mutant2_nr: So AKC was/is supporting SR1139 in the HOPE that Santorum will do a rewrite that will be agreeable to all the dog fancy?
dropfred: should the changes NOT be accepted, Akc will, bail out.
KenLV: Nochanges willcome inr sessions wreno opposition isallowedtospeak
dropfred: the problem now is that WHO can trust them?
PHChristy: Mutant, that they can be on the insaide instead of the outside. and work to effect change from the inside. A trap many people have fallen into, on many issues, throughout history.
PSF_nr: Did you hear that from someone within the AKC?
dropfred: who will believe them?
dropfred: sure did....
Rouen: americat, I know when we bred our cocker we had the buyers sign contracts, all the puppy vaccined were taken care of, tails docked and wormed, and house broken, socialized and were 10 wks when left, no we didn't do health certificated but thus far all have been healthy.
SpringA_nr: what happens at the nov 8th hearing?
Mutant2_nr: Linda? When did AKC say they would bail if the wording was not acceptable?
dropfred: the truth should have been told from day one.
dropfred: I had that discussion last week.
PHMowgli: linda who said they would bail?
dropfred: with board.
PHChristy: hi there momof2danes! Welcome to Dog Breeding Chat! We're getting an update on the Nov 8 congressional hearing on the PAWS legislation
PSF_nr: absolutely!
danwilldn: I know that many people on our Cardigan list opposed the bill, and next thing were banned from posting about it.
PHChristy: I think that AKC fell for a snow job, personally.
PHMowgli: ok the board
dropfred: there are board members on akc that do NOT agree with paws, you know.
momof2danes: hi all
dropfred: I believe the snow job, as well.
PSF_nr: Yes, that's been known for sometime...
PHChristy: hey Sara! Welcome to Dog Breeding Chat! We're getting an update on the Nov 8 congressional hearing on the PAWS legislation
momof2danes: hey sara
momof2danes: its me
Mutant2_nr: Christy, but in doing that? The AKC has LOST the support of a lot of it's regestrants?
dropfred: I don't think they realized how the dog people would all pull together like we h ave.
Sarasmushu: Hello
SammyLover_nr: Lets face it-- all legal documentation is about terminology
PHChristy: I think AKC was actually flattered into their current position, and now it's all CYA
PHChristy: Mutant, yes
SammyLover_nr: if akc doesn't like the wording
PHChristy: I think AKC is surprised by the opposition from the parent clubs
dropfred: no, they were not flattered.
Mutant2_nr: Christy? Flattered? how?
PHChristy: I think they were lured in with honeyed words, Linda
danwilldn: That is the feeling I get from our delegates re: CYA
dropfred: when they finally saw the bill itself, they all gasped.
PHChristy: I mean they were flattered into it, not that they were flattered by it
KenLV: AKC Board elections are in January I believe
SammyLover_nr: they don't like the context
dropfred: I agee with being pulled in.
Mutant2_nr: oh yeah the oppostion has been tremendous
PHChristy: as I said, lured in with honeyed words
dropfred: Yes, Ken. They meet in Jan.
PHMorgan: IT's been ongoing since the beginning of the bill.
dropfred: no, they did not like the content at all.
PSF_nr: Only 4 Board members gasped... those would be the 4 that voted no... the others could have/should have voted NO at that time and that would have been the end of it.
SammyLover_nr: (i will shut up until the Breed or show do chat comes on so I do not intrued. When does that chat begin?)
dropfred: but they also felt they could NOT defeat santorum.
dropfred: so they opted to try to agree to disagree if you will.
dropfred: to try to change the wording.
PHChristy: showdog chat begins at 10 PM ET, in around 20 minutes
Mutant2_nr: Sammy, stick around, this PAWS stuff relates to everyone
rsngstr101: and in YOUR opinion is that going to Happen, Linda?
rsngstr101: the wording change, that is
dropfred: I know they have given the wording changes but there is still NO guarantee that santorum will change anything.
SammyLover_nr: I know the PAWS stuff relates ot everyone but without having actually read the PAWS legislation...
dropfred: ME? I don't believe anything except that I will fight to the death.
PSF_nr: There was "no" reason for them to believe they COULDN"T defeat Santorum... we did so just two years ago with DDAL vs Veneman
Mutant2_nr: as it comes with micorchip and government ID numbers for places that house/contain animals. . .BIG Brother ain't done yet
danwilldn: Is the legislation going to pass??
SammyLover_nr: I am too ignorant to put my 2 cents in
PHMowgli: linda why did they not shaer with everyone that they supported it but only with these changes and show the proposed changes they wanted
Mutant2_nr: Sammy, then read and learn. . .
dropfred: well, think about it. santorum got the AW A passed using the back door.
dropfred: I asked that same question, Mow.
KenLV: The more hter Senators and Reps hear fromthepubic they morethey willthinkabout voting for a billthat isso opped by almost everyone.
SammyLover_nr: I am reading but no one has explicitely stated what the PAWS legislation constitutes
dropfred: and taking this even further, santorum has green in his eyes.
PHChristy: Sammy, those were the links I posted
dropfred: if this passes, on with step two.
PHChristy: HI there rottnpagan! Welcome to Dog Breeding Chat! We're getting an update on the Nov 8 congressional hearing on the PAWS legislation
Mutant2_nr: AWA is not an ALL bad piece of legislation, redundant and unnecessary but not all bad
dropfred: which, is why WE have to show congress what a job they did with NO.
rottnpagan: Hello everyone. :)
PHChristy: Sammy, go to the Ridgeback link I posted, it has links to everything you are asking about
ode2adream: *pokes rottn*
dropfred: but any legislation that hinders our rights is bad.
PHMowgli: I agree mutant some of it was a waste but portion were useful
SammyLover_nr: I will read about the info
PHChristy: welcome back, danwilldn whose name isn't really dan
KenLV: If it passes it volates Sect 4 and 5 ofthe Consitution ofthe USA
dropfred: do you think, julie, that the awa needed this amendment added?
danwilldn: Haha! Christie, I was looking for the links. Sorry I am new...
dropfred: Yes, Ken, I read that.
dropfred: you are right.
PSF_nr: A friend of mine attended an AR confrence where John Goodwin with HSUS was a guest speaker - to the best of her recolection - he insinuated that the Puppy Protection Act, in the past had ONLY been defeated because of the AKC and efforts would be made to sway the AKC from their previous position... she attended this confrence in 2004
Mutant2_nr: PAWS proposses to place a number limit on the litters/or animals produced in a year - go over the limit and be subject to USDA regulations. . .then microchip may be mandaroty - then USDA license MUST be obtained, jump though the USDA hoops like the HUNTE corp and you too can breed animals
dropfred: then we have the farm bill to deal with if it does no pass.
SammyLover_nr: I admit that i have seen the PAWS stuff at shows--- but as probably the majority of ignorant people-- I walked on by
rsngstr101: I truly believe that there in lies the problem, we ALL jsut walk on
dropfred: PSF, I heard about that.
Mutant2_nr: Sammy, not ignorant, just not informed
danwilldn: Christie, how do you view the links?
dropfred: I agree Carol.
PHChristy: it's interesting, I actually believe quite strongly in breeder accountability ...
PHMorgan: IT is easier to just assume it will all work out
rsngstr101: because we live in our own safe little world, WE THINK,
PSF_nr: Many of us have not walked passed - many of us are fighting to the bitter end!
dropfred: most do just walk by. Let somebody else do it.
PHChristy: dan, just click on them and it will launch a new window
danwilldn: I don't see them, sorry!
Mutant2_nr: morality can NOT be legislated nor can responsible pet ownership
PHMowgli: if you have pop up blocker on they may not work
SammyLover_nr: Okay-- so how will the PAWS bill actually impact puppy mills?
PHChristy: dan, I posted them a while ago, hang on and I'll post them again
dropfred: just like I said a while ago....I will fight to the death.
SammyLover_nr: do [puppy mills even bother to count the number of offspring produced?
ode2adream: it won't sammy
danwilldn: OK, thanks
KenLV: I have found that ifyou hit therightnotewith mostpeoplethey willopen their ears and listen and become active
dropfred: puppy mills? it won't
PHChristy: Sammy, not much, they are already subject to the AWA and pet stores are EXEMPT from PAWS
SammyLover_nr: or just the summation of $$$
SammyLover_nr: How can puppy mills be regualted?
ode2adream: USDA already licenses puppy mills.
PHChristy: it's about subjecting US to regulations
Mutant2_nr: impact upon puppy mills? probably have NO affect because they are probably already USDA licensed. . .go figure
dropfred: plus, do they intend to call all of the people that have pets for sale in the newspapers?
SammyLover_nr: USDA licenses a lot of stuff
PHChristy: Sammy, there are two ways: Enforce laws, which will leave you with clean puppy mills, er, I mean HIGH VOLUME BREEDERS
dropfred: and how would they get control of the internet sales as per their claim?
dropfred: yes, usda is 92 pages worth of issues.
SammyLover_nr: Where this will have more impact is the show dog circuit
PHChristy: Or educate the public about how to find and identify good breeders, and destory the market for milled dogs and cats
Mutant2_nr: right, but to actually get a USDA license for a dog kennel is pulling teeth for most of us
dropfred: Christy...LOL.
SammyLover_nr: where you have some breeders that are over breeding v. smaller breeders
PHChristy: I think the WORST impact in the short term will be on rescue groups. In the long term, show breeders
danwilldn: I am interested in the issue of internet sales. Would they regulate the AKC classifieds?
SammyLover_nr: that have 1 or two litters a year that really invest in the litter
PSF_nr: check out the legislation position by PIJAC... to understand the pet store's problems with PAWS - http://www.pijac.org
PHMowgli: to get USDA licnse for a dog kennel you must first have a kennel building no dogs in your house
Rouen: DF one site said it was 60 pages for USDA
SammyLover_nr: How would rescure groups be impacted?
SammyLover_nr: they get the dogs after they have been bred
dropfred: right up front, christy, from the get go...rescue and hobbyists will be toast.
Mutant2_nr: Sammy, exactly. . .how can anyone develope a pedigree "line" and maintain it for any period of time w/o producing a number of litters? And proving those pups in the show ring?
PHChristy: Sammy, that's at the Ridgeback link
PHMowgli: they would need kennel buildings as they would be dealers
KenLV: Also rememberthose 25/6 numbers can be brought down withnoproblem oncethe bill ispassed
PSF_nr: The actual bill does NOT use the word "internet" ANYWHERE... it's just more smoke and mirrors!
PHChristy: let me repost that now, I got distracted
SammyLover_nr: yeah i need ot read the stuff at the ridgeback link
Mutant2_nr: Rescue groups even though they may be a 501C3 organization will NOT be exempt from the 'number limit' and most foster homes can NOT pass USDA muster
PSF_nr: Jim Holt admitted that the numbers WOULD in fact come down...
PHMowgli: the RR link is great
PHChristy: Here is the Ridgeback Rescue link on PAWS and how it will impact rescues: http://www.ridgebackrescue.org/special/opposed_to_PAWS.html
dropfred: well, I got me a letter from santorum, local hayseed that I am....and he mentions internet sales in it.
SammyLover_nr: but i am familiar with some breeders that have many many litters a year
SammyLover_nr: too many
SammyLover_nr: so they can show the best of the best in the ring
KenLV: Pet Law has a very good explaination of PAWS forthe personwho knows nothing to the dog person who should know something
dropfred: this government was founded on the basis of being by the people and for the people.
SammyLover_nr: however, they have doen a great job in finding good homes for the pets
PSF_nr: How many litters are too many?
dropfred: the way it is now, it is by the government, for the government.
PHMowgli: Sammy I agree some breeders need to be limited but the entire population of dog owners does not
Mutant2_nr: Sammy, not many, may exceed the allowed numbers as set forth in PAWS the amendment to the Animal Welfare Act of 2005
SpringA_nr: is this to be voted on Nov 8th? If it is passed when can we expect the experience the effects?
danwilldn: Sammy, in our breed they throw any two dogs together hoping for a good one, and breed tons.
PSF_nr: November 8th is just a mark up hearing
PHChristy: I just think legislation is a useless strategy, we'll never ELIMINATE bad breeders no matter what, we have to cut their market to shreds with education of puppy buyers
dropfred: there are other ways to deal with these problems.
PSF_nr: I ask again... How many is TOO MANY?
Mutant2_nr: spring, Santorum is holding a 'rubber stamp' meeting of the midns to put the approval on PAWS on Nov 8 - a done deal before it ever gets to the Senate floor
danwilldn: Christy is absolutely right.
rsngstr101: exactly
PHChristy: there is no such thing as "too many" litters... look at the old time kennels, with hired help and hundreds of dogs. Those were great places to be a dog.
PHChristy: but for me, two a year is too many
SammyLover_nr: So...you have a breedeer that has 500 dogs a year and manages to find good home for all of them with spay neuter contracts
PHMorgan: Has he even spoken with any AKC breeders?
PHMowgli: PSF well I would breeding same bitch every season for 5 yrs whether you have 1 or 10 bitches is too many
dropfred: PSF, good question. I had bred seven bitches and had 8 pups. what a deal, huh?
Mutant2_nr: PSF? how many is too many? one litter is too many for HSUS and DDAL and PETA who all support PAWS
SammyLover_nr: v. a breeder that has 1 litter that doesn't bbother trying to find homes for them
SammyLover_nr: so they endf up keeping all 5 pups adding to the 15 they already have
PSF_nr: PeTA and HSUS think breeding ONE litter a year is TOO many! By putting numbers into the bill it supports their efforts.
SammyLover_nr: so none of the dogs get attention
dropfred: sammy, that is impossible.
PHChristy: does the person who mentioned PIJAC's position have a link to that? I can't find it
PHMowgli: the numbers mean nothng it is the purpose, the care, the love, and compassion put into the litters
danwilldn: It is true that the AR guys want to put us all out of biz good or bad.
PHChristy: Sammy, what do you mean?
SammyLover_nr: okay so 500 is an exaggeration
SammyLover_nr: but you get the gist
dropfred: but volume breeders create the problem. they don't s/n
PSF_nr: Some of the best reproduction specialist will tell you that breeding your bitch back to back is BETTER than letting her body lay fallow...
dropfred: they sell the dogs intact with full registration.
PHChristy: I agree with that completely PSF
dropfred: to make more problems.
Mutant2_nr: Sammy? 500 what? llmao
dropfred: PSF, Hutch said that...LOL.
PHMowgli: PSF but I don't think they mean every season for lifetime of bitch
PHChristy: people with good intentions can easily disagree on the details of what makes best breeding practices, but I still believe that what we have to do is educate owners and puppy buyers, that is where we'll have the most impact.
PSF_nr: Several others concurred at a repro confrence
Rouen: I was gonna ask for how long, mow
PHMorgan: OH dang, Mow, now I gotta rethink my breeding program....
KenLV: True Linda butgood breeders want morethat just a set of papers...they want x-rays, vet records andthesuch.
Mutant2_nr: OH don't get me started on the spay neuter aspect. .I can tell you horro stories about 'people' who do NOT belive in s/n
PSF_nr: ok... lets look at things this way...
PHChristy: LOL, Ken wanted to beat Hutch's numbers for this chat... we had 500 when he was our guest
SammyLover_nr: okay okauy i exagerated with the 500
dropfred: agreed, Ken.
PSF_nr: there will ALWAYS be a demand for puppies
SammyLover_nr: lets say 10 litters v 1 litter
PHChristy: Hi there raivon! Welcome to Dog Breeding Chat! We are discussing the upcoming hearing on PAWS in Congress, scheduled for Nov 8
PSF_nr: if good, respondible breeders are not meeting those demands - then the substandandard and commercial breeders will!
SammyLover_nr: 10-500 not that big of a difference
SammyLover_nr: :)
dropfred: interesting.
PHChristy: LOL Sammy
Mutant2_nr: Sammy, how 'bout we don't put a limit number on litters?
PHMowgli: nope only 490
danwilldn: It doesn't matter if good breeders breed or not. Bad breeders ALWAYS will.
PSF_nr: Why is it that a good breeder wishing to breed a couple of litters per year should be views as a puppy mill?
SammyLover_nr: a limit is good
PHChristy: I would support humane standards of care legislation, and I'd support increased accountability legislation, but I won't ever support increased REGULATION
SammyLover_nr: but then you have to also look in to the whole co-owner thing
dropfred: So, on to what you all need to do from now until Nov. 8......call, fax, send pictures, letters, another bombardment.
KenLV: 475 now
PHBlackBear: Hi Everyone
PHChristy: Hi there BlackBear, Indmonk!
PHChristy: LOL Ken
Mutant2_nr: What's that line in the WAR movie? "one out of every 11 people are armed. . .now the question is how do we arm the remaining 10?"
dropfred: Ken, what are you talking about 475?
lndmonk: hey everyone, new here so slow down some for an old lady
PSF_nr: increased accountabitly? what do you mean by that?
PHChristy: Welcome to Dog Breeding Chat! We are getting an update on the upcoming Congressional Hearing on PAWS on Nov. 8
Mutant2_nr: Linda, the NAIA web site has that neat way to access your State's representatives and also have a ready made format for the email
dropfred: increased accoutability? who said that?
PHChristy: PSF, for instance, I consider every puppy I have ever bred to be my responsiblity. That dog should come back to ME, not end up in a shelter being a burden on the local tax base
PHChristy: I did, Linda
SammyLover_nr: lets say you have a breeder that has had 10 litters from dogs that she co-owns
PHMorgan: PErsonally I think it would behoove AKC to increase registratino costs to fund some ENFORCEMNT of their by-laws regarding breeding
SammyLover_nr: does tha ownly count as 5 litters
PHChristy: I said I would support increased accountabilty for breeders, but not increased regulation
PHMowgli: Christy I do ot have a problem with being responsbile but why should the govt be able to tell me I had 1 too many puppies this year
PSF_nr: PH Christy said that
dropfred: Julie, I know....LOL...I am on the naia legislative committe.e...LOL.
PHMorgan: Well, folks will just begin registering only show-quality pups and selling the others under the table.
PHChristy: Mowgli, my point exactly. If I can be responsible for the dogs I produce, and AM responsible for them, why is it government business at all?
PHMorgan: It really wont work
dropfred: oh.
Mutant2_nr: Lilnda, yeah so let's plug that site and crank up the email bombardment
dropfred: it is NOT government business and that is the attitude we all NEED>
PHMorgan: THat would be how I would handle it. Spay/neuter the "pet quality" pups and just register the show quality pups
PHMowgli: right morgan that is what i gonna happen
SammyLover_nr: all of the dogs need to be registered
PHChristy: Here is the link: http://www.repo-pac.com/
dropfred: this is only step one in the overall plan to eliminate breeding of anything at all.
PHMorgan: I agree, Sammy
danwilldn: The real problem is that the world is getting smaller, and our dogs are getting squeezed out :(
SammyLover_nr: thats the only way for some sort of control
PSF_nr: Personally, I see nothing wrong with breeders who do an excellent job of being stewards of their breeds producing wondeful dogs for the public... it means one LESS sale for a puppy mill or pet shop!
PHMowgli: or people will quit registering all together
PHChristy: dan, very true
SammyLover_nr: or monitoring
PHChristy: nondan
Mutant2_nr: Tell your prospective puppy buyer that they are NOT getting an intact animal and see what happens. . .stupid people
KenLV: Later answer 0- Christiesaid theroom recordwas 500 Isaid I have anew goal only 475 togo
dropfred: the real problem is that we don't need to bring things in from elsewhere.
PHMorgan: The pet homes *I* approve would be just fine with that practice, Mutant
danwilldn: ROFL
PHMorgan: If not, they can go ELSEWHERE
SammyLover_nr: but those pet shop and puppy mill pups are going to need a hometoo
PSF_nr: You know - that has "never" been an issue for us... my pups are sold on s/n contracts... and I don't allow for "early" s/n...
SammyLover_nr: otherwise they will end up in a shelter
PHChristy: I weed them out with my 12 page questionairre, LOL
rsngstr101: I have been very blessed in finding homes that dont care about getting them s/n and do so as early as possible
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