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Transcript: Dog Breeding Chat Tuesday, Oct. 26, 2004: Popularity, Numbers in Rescue, and Breeding Decisions PHFang: Welcome to Breeders Chat!!! Tonight's topic: Should the popularity of our breed, and the numbers of our breed in rescue and shelters, affect our breeding decisions? If our goal as responsible breeders is to preserve and improve our chosen breeds, does the fact that thousands of irresponsibly bred members of our breeds are flooding the shelters make us more or less likely to continue with our breeding programs? PHMowgli: Oh I just love this topic PHMowgli: being in the same breed as mesa I can say we are not flooded honestly but we do get our fair share of rescues PHMorgan: I will say one question comes into MY mind when I consider this topic.... MESA shelties_nr: this is 2nd puppy out of that litter to have it PHFang: Mesa, a lot of old-timey vets will preach not to breed one with demo....but in my experience it's not hereditary PHMorgan: IF I don't produce my planned litter of puppies............ PHFang: What Mo? PHMowgli: Mesa then I would say those dogs are now retired MESA shelties_nr: and the off spring? PHMorgan: Will those potential puppy buyers.... The ones, say, on MY waiting list.... Will they, in fact, go to a shelter to acquire my breed? PHFang: Mow, min pins are pretty notororious for getting demo....doesn't seem to stop the breeders PHFang: the question, Morgan is CAN they get one from a shelter? PHMowgli: fang shelties are not though PHMorgan: We have to assume for the sake of argument that this is a decision made by ALL breeders in my breed PHMorgan: Yes, you can acquire MY breed from a shelter PHMorgan: At least, the field bred variety... PHMorgan: Demodex runs in families MESA shelties_nr: 2 puppies in the litter PHMorgan: BUt it is the tendency to be susceptible to it under periods of stress that is of concern MESA shelties_nr: dam & sire are clear PHFang: I guess, Mo the trouble is that in the US we are the land of instant. They want a dog....they want it now. How many of those on your wait list---truly wait for one of yours for a companion? PHMorgan: Um PHMorgan: Most of them wait 6-12 months at least PHMorgan: Many longer MESA shelties_nr: Oh well another nice one getting fixed! PHFang: How many give up and go elsewhere? PHMorgan: BUT if I put them on my list, it's because we hvae spoken enough that both agree they don't want a pointer from another kennel MESA shelties_nr: I refer them if they don't want to wait to others PHFang: How many times do you recommend they turn to rescue? PHMowgli: Fang I don't know about MOrgans waiting list but I have many times called my buyers who purchased a pup elsewhere rather than wait PHMorgan: They don't - if they don't want to wait, I immediately refer them elsewhere to someone I know is reputable. I don't just keep a "list" PHMorgan: My waiting list is "Corwyn" peop;le MESA shelties_nr: moat all if I don't have what they want PHMorgan: I see no point in keeping a list of maybes PHMowgli: Mesa I actually referred someone to you yesterday LOL parakeet: g2g syl MESA shelties_nr: Oh thanks!!! PHFang: okies. October issue of AKC Gazette. in August 2004 49 pointers were registered MESA shelties_nr: I have 3 blue girls now and 2 tri boys PHFang: and 44 litters. That is not a super popular breed it seems compared to others PHMowgli: they are looking for a sable male for show which I will not have since I do AOAC's LOL PHFang: Welcome to Breeders Chat!!! Tonight's topic: Should the popularity of our breed, and the numbers of our breed in rescue and shelters, affect our breeding decisions? If our goal as responsible breeders is to preserve and improve our chosen breeds, does the fact that thousands of irresponsibly bred members of our breeds are flooding the shelters make us more or less likely to continue with our breeding programs? PHMorgan: So, getting back to the POINT - How mnay folks on my waiting list - no matter WHAT my breed, will actually go to a shelter to find my breed IF there are no "breeder' pups available??? PHFang: Hi Foxbridge PHMowgli: mesa when they call tell them to get a tri LOL PHFang: Welcome to Breeders Chat!!! Tonight's topic: Should the popularity of our breed, and the numbers of our breed in rescue and shelters, affect our breeding decisions? If our goal as responsible breeders is to preserve and improve our chosen breeds, does the fact that thousands of irresponsibly bred members of our breeds are flooding the shelters make us more or less likely to continue with our breeding programs? MESA shelties_nr: Oh No...... I just placed my sable boy PHFang: Hi Bert!! MESA shelties_nr: LOL!! PHMowgli: hey bert PHMowgli: MOrgan I would think notmany at all to your question berta: lo all PHMowgli: afterall they are waiting for a dog of your breeding program PHMorgan: THIS is the question to consider when breeding. For many of us, even the "pet" pups are still going to folks who have researched enough to know why they want our breeds, where htey want them from and who the best source is... PHFang: ok Shelties for Aug 2004 1326 registered and 1248 litters PHFang: True enough, Morgan in breeds like ours that don't have as many registered PHMowgli: well fang since I have not had a litter for over a yr I do not take any responsibility for those numbers LOL PHMorgan: and to be honest, I think folks who are talking with breeders will get a puppy from a BREEDER, not a shelter. berta: I always ask if they're sure they want a pup to housebreak etc before going very far with a caller PHMowgli: I agree Morgan PHMorgan: Even if they have to change breeds.... Get a bichon instead of a poodle.... Get a visla instead of a pointer... PHFang: Sometimes, Morgan, but I am surprised how many of my "wait" list go to shelters and get a dog when I finally call them PHMorgan: FOlks who want a dog of any kind will go to a shelter and choose whichever appeals PHMorgan: And those who go directly to rescue WANT the "dog that needs saving" of their chosen breed berta: I placed a rescue I had when I had two young pups for sale and people asked why I would do that PHMorgan: I have done it too - rescues go to "one" type of home and pups to another PHMorgan: NOt MY choice, the people's choice berta: I told them it was because he needed a home worse than they did PHFang: ok let's take goldens. in August 2004 4546 were registered and 4325 litters. Is there a reason to breed a golden litter just for companions? PHMorgan: SOmetimes rescues and shelter dogs go to folks who don't want to spend a lot of money, but most often, rescues and shelter dogs go to folks who WANT to help out PHFang: Yea, me too bert. Sometimes the home just fits the older dog better PHMorgan: Who feel a dog needs a home, not who feel THEIR home needs a DOG PHFang: right Mo! PHMorgan: I just don't think the "pools" of homes are the same PHMorgan: Here's a perfect example.... I have right now a 15 year old beagle PHMorgan: When she goes, I will most likely replace her with another "kick-me" dog (meaning a small, portable dog of whatever breed) PHFang: But based on the sheer numbers of beagles bred, would you even contemplate breeding a litter of them Morgan? PHMorgan: Since this dog will probably be just a "pet" and do not much except obedience, I will probably choose a breed and go to a rescue grup for this pet PHMorgan: If I wanted an additional pointer, I would go to a breeder, because that's how I feel about THAT aspect of my dog interest PHMorgan: My beagle is an unbreedable pet. Always has been. PHMorgan: She was chosen as a pet and was spayed at 6 months PHMorgan: She was never a show or breeding animal PHMorgan: If *I* as a breeder want a pet, *I* would go to a shelter or rescue PHMorgan: Because if *I* want a pet, personally, that would be my choice PHFang: Do you think the general population thinks the same way? Or are ppl still influenced by the cute faces in the pet stores? PHMorgan: BUt I am able to train and rehabilitate such a dog PHMorgan: They absoltely are or there owuld BE no pet stores PHMorgan: But they are getting wiser PHFang: How many of them are calling breeders vs getting a dog out of the paper for example PHMorgan: I find the inquiries I get are more and more intelligent. EVen for the dog (rescue) I advertised recently in the paper PHFang: In my breed, to obtain a dog, you MUST call a breeder, as thankfully we don't have PM or BYB or rescue dogs. But what bout beagles or goldens or shelties? PHMorgan: The calls are from folsk who are asking more intelligent questions.... EVen those looking for a rescue pet berta: Or Border Collies? PHMorgan: I also will add that BECAUSE there are so many shelter and rescue dogs, it's even MORE important how *WE* place our puppies. How much we follow up to ensure spay and neuter PHFang: No doubt Mo PHMorgan: WHo has their hands on intact dogs... Where are our puppies going? PHFang: See, I wonder about this topic, as I myself changed breeds from a totally overpopulated Min Pin to Toy Manchesters. The sheer numbers of Min Pins in rescue made me think HARD about breeding any litter ever again PHFang: Not that it was my kids....but those dogs needed homes too. Why would I breed more? PHFang: Welcome to Breeders Chat!!! Tonight's topic: Should the popularity of our breed, and the numbers of our breed in rescue and shelters, affect our breeding decisions? If our goal as responsible breeders is to preserve and improve our chosen breeds, does the fact that thousands of irresponsibly bred members of our breeds are flooding the shelters make us more or less likely to continue with our breeding programs? PHFang: Hi coastal PHMorgan: EVen to the extent of acciental breedeings.... What happens to THOSE dogs? I"m sure a few of us have sold pups to folks who've had accidents.... Did you actually help make sure the pups were altered and placed in good homes? Or did you just commiserate and thank Dog it was't YOU? coastalbirdhouse_nr: Hi yall PHMowgli: Knock on wood ( hits self in head) I have never had that MOrgan PHFang: Thank goodness-me either Mo. But my pinnies are all speutered coastalbirdhouse_nr: Our last litter was an accident, AKC from our dogs but we were gonna take a break PHMorgan: BUt, Fang, do you really think those folks coming to you for Min Pins woudl now go to a shelter? Or would they now, say, well, Manchesters are close enough and you're responsible - I'll take one of THOSE? PHFang: Welcome to Breeders Chat!!! Tonight's topic: Should the popularity of our breed, and the numbers of our breed in rescue and shelters, affect our breeding decisions? If our goal as responsible breeders is to preserve and improve our chosen breeds, does the fact that thousands of irresponsibly bred members of our breeds are flooding the shelters make us more or less likely to continue with our breeding programs? berta: Nor have I PHFang: Hi Verita PHFang: Yes, Mo I have referred ppl to Min Pin rescue a lot now actually PHFang: Cuz it's the other way around.....they can't get a MT without a long wait--they can get a Min Pin tomorrow PHMorgan: I still feel our best course of actions as breeders isn't to NOT breed a litter, but to continue to breed carefully, place carefully and do our part in rescue. PHMowgli: I agree Morgan and don't we as breeder also owe it toour breeds to produce good dogs to ensure the future of our breeds??? coastalbirdhouse_nr: we placed every pup except for a coupel we kept sice we knew we only wanted the female to have 2 litters PHFang: Welcome to Breeders Chat!!! Tonight's topic: Should the popularity of our breed, and the numbers of our breed in rescue and shelters, affect our breeding decisions? If our goal as responsible breeders is to preserve and improve our chosen breeds, does the fact that thousands of irresponsibly bred members of our breeds are flooding the shelters make us more or less likely to continue with our breeding programs? PHFang: Hi DC!! coastalbirdhouse_nr: we also do provide homes for displaced dogs MESA shelties_nr: I have a stipulation in my contract..... PHMowgli: hEY dc PHMorgan: If *I* don't breed a litter, the good dogs I have won't contribute. But the poor field bred unhealthy dogs (not that all "field pointers are unhealthy, but the nubmers are higher) WILL PHMorgan: What will be left? dogcaps: howdy ya'll PHMorgan: Coastal - we do too PHMowgli: mesa you get the all teh pups and the bitch back? MESA shelties_nr: that says that no dog or puppy is to go to a rescue or shelter coastalbirdhouse_nr: we have a rottie that was displaced and I insisted that she be spayed before coming home PHFang: Morgan, your breed really isn't as intensly bred as some tho MESA shelties_nr: they come back home HEAR PHFang: You have an obligation yes, to improve on your breed. PHMorgan: Certainly not, but I'm not sure it matters PHMowgli: Mesa I have the same clasue for the life of the animal PHFang: I do too, Mesa PHMorgan: I think OUR breeding programs and combatting overpopulation ore two separate issues. - but OUR refers to 100% completely responsible folks. MESA shelties_nr: and I check on the pups from time to time PHMorgan: And there is a LOT to that concept of 100% responsibiloity coastalbirdhouse_nr: we breed labs,but previously I have had rotties,dobies, and German shepherds dogcaps: brb PHMorgan: Sometimes there are things a breeder cannot prevent or control, and we all make judgment errors in placing pups, but we can make EVERY effort to ensure tha tOUR pups don't contribute to the shelters and rescues PHMorgan: Let's talk about some of those options: PHFang: Right Morgan. But is the BYB of say goldens doing the world a favor? Are they improving their breed? Is there a legitimite reason to breed strictly for pets in a highly bred breed like that? PHMorgan: 1) Spay & Neuter any pets before htey go in homes coastalbirdhouse_nr: I refuse to sell to certain individuals and have no qualms telling them why PHMorgan: 2) OR, include a requirement for same MESA shelties_nr: good noght all PHMorgan: 3) Yep, coastal, refusing unsuitable homes PHFang: Nite Mesa PHMowgli: nite Mesa MESA shelties_nr: oops.... good nighet all! MESA shelties_nr: see ....... PHMorgan: Fang - there is NOTHING wrong in my mind with breeding HEALTHY pets MESA shelties_nr: I am goofy!! coastalbirdhouse_nr: unless you have the alter surgery done yourself there is no guaruntee PHMorgan: Let's face it, many breeds serve mostly AS pets and have no "job" or obscure "jobs" coastalbirdhouse_nr: we breed our labs more for disposition than hunting although ours are good hunters PHMorgan: I mean, what actual job is there for Toy Manchester Terriers (nothing personal - just an opportune choice) PHFang: Very true, Morgan. but is there a need to breed your pet to the neighbors pet for no other purpose than to sell them in the paper for the pet market? coastalbirdhouse_nr: but in general people want labs as pets PHFang: They are great ratters and killers of grasshoppers......LOL but they are mostly a companion animal. PHMorgan: IF those pets are healthy and the homes are responsible, I'm not sure it'sa crime to breed fluffy to muffy for pets PHMorgan: Fang - taht is my point coastalbirdhouse_nr: Fang, I agree, we happen to have a very laid bacl line of labs that we choose to continue PHFang: Welcome to Breeders Chat!!! Tonight's topic: Should the popularity of our breed, and the numbers of our breed in rescue and shelters, affect our breeding decisions? If our goal as responsible breeders is to preserve and improve our chosen breeds, does the fact that thousands of irresponsibly bred members of our breeds are flooding the shelters make us more or less likely to continue with our breeding programs? PHMowgli: hey trav PHFang: Hi trav PHMorgan: They might be well bred and beautiful, but they are primarily pets. PHMowgli: hey morgan my dogs say they resemble that remark LOL PHMorgan: But then, so are mine - to the last 3-titled dog in my house who is currently playing dead cockroach on my daughter's lap while she watches TV coastalbirdhouse_nr: we have chosen future mates for our chosen pups based on disposition PHFang: Are those folks doing appropriate health testing? X-rays? etc? travlinpom_nr: hey all berta: Hitp PHFang: Welcome to Breeders Chat!!! Tonight's topic: Should the popularity of our breed, and the numbers of our breed in rescue and shelters, affect our breeding decisions? If our goal as responsible breeders is to preserve and improve our chosen breeds, does the fact that thousands of irresponsibly bred members of our breeds are flooding the shelters make us more or less likely to continue with our breeding programs? PHMorgan: FANG - again - to me it call comes back to the question of RESPONSIBILITY berta: oops That was Hi tp coastalbirdhouse_nr: our guys are certified etc but do I charge accordingly, NO because we are in the pet trade, not the show trade PHFang: No question Morgan travlinpom_nr: pet trade??? oh dear PHMowgli: ah that really big word Morgan which once again has many different definitions in the dog world PHMorgan: Let's face it - what puts many of the responsible breeders above the "pet" breeders isn't INTENTION.... WE ALL have good intentions, even the "fluffy to Muffy" crwod for the most part.... PHMorgan: IT's EDUCATION PHMorgan: REsponsible breeders not only WANT to do right and be responsible, but they KNOW what is needed, or they want to LEARN what is needed coastalbirdhouse_nr: we dont overbreed, we do 2 litters at most out of our dogs, but we do expect ours to be mostly pets not hunters or show dogs PHMorgan: This is why forums like THIS ONE are so hugely important. It brings the less educated folks into contact with those of us "in the know" PHMorgan: And it allows us to influence them with our magnificent information... LOL PHMorgan: BUt we also have to be kindly and encouraging with folks who simply don't know better PHMorgan: IT's very hard travlinpom_nr: Morgan, I agree, responsible breeder are constantly learning and educating themselves berta: But very often they THINK they know it all PHMorgan: It's hard to be inclusive and enouraging without getting frustrated, exasperated ande it's also hard not to sound "holier than thou" travlinpom_nr: They are very aware of the AKC standard for their breed and they adhere to it PHFang: And hey, not all "show' breeders are responsible I know that. It's a difficult line to walk,however with the folks who just breed to making some money, and breed pets without regard to health or breed standard or improving the breed. PHMorgan: IF anyopne else would speak up, that would BE USEFUL coastalbirdhouse_nr: most of the dogs in our area will be pets regardless of show quality travlinpom_nr: uh . . . am i invisible? PHMorgan: NO, pom, not at all sensationalfelin: well I just adaopted a beutiful chinese crested-why because I could not afford one with papers and 2 I liked the idea of saving a rescue and 3 he is partially trained and I we have just joined him up for obedience and agility PHMorgan: That is GREAT, sensatino coastalbirdhouse_nr: we have very "show quality" dogs that might not be the best hpusehold companion PHFang: Congrats Sensational! travlinpom_nr: My "show quality kids" ARE pets!! they are pets first, then show kids PHMowgli: sensational that is great berta: brb PHMorgan: Pom - how do you handle the "fluffy Y Muffy" crowd? I find it hard to be friendly but not bash them over the head with all they are doing "wrong" PHMowgli: and as trav says I think most responsible breeders deem their dogs as pets first showing in whatever venue their jobs and producing litters their duty to their breeds future coastalbirdhouse_nr: travlin, that is great, I grew up with show quality dogs that were not neccesarily great pets VeritasAussies_nr: Oh, whoops I completely forgot I had entered the room! sensationalfelin: thanks guys he is now in his forever home-one week we drove to Indiana to pick him up-no chinese recues in Canada VeritasAussies_nr: I am a ding bat sometimes. Hello everyone! travlinpom_nr: Morgan, I used to spend hours trying to educate, in fact i thought it was my responsiblity to educate . . . now I hit the ignore button . . . they dont want to learn PHMowgli: Morgan I have that same problem LOL PHFang: I think responsible breeders of show quality dogs, do try and breed for temperament first. I know I do PHFang: Hi Verita! VeritasAussies_nr: Hello PHFang! PHMowgli: I find that most of the uneducated are that way for refuseal to learn not lack of opportunity VeritasAussies_nr: This is my first time in this room, I'm excited I found it PHMorgan: Pom - I'm not sure that's the case, but I think it's hard to help them learn without making them feel 1) defensive 2) inferior PHFang: Great Verita! Welcome welcome! PHMorgan: PUll up a sofa, Veritas travlinpom_nr: Coast, that is unfortunate . . . I dont know of any well bred dogs that arent good pets too PHMorgan: Brownies are all gone - bad Solo ate 'em all VeritasAussies_nr: I certainly will. So what is the topic tonight? PHFang: Welcome to Breeders Chat!!! Tonight's topic: Should the popularity of our breed, and the numbers of our breed in rescue and shelters, affect our breeding decisions? If our goal as responsible breeders is to preserve and improve our chosen breeds, does the fact that thousands of irresponsibly bred members of our breeds are flooding the shelters make us more or less likely to continue with our breeding programs? coastalbirdhouse_nr: We have show quality dogs with great lines, but we do not sell them as such PHFang: LOL there you go Verita! PHMowgli: Morgan but when tray to talk to them at their level are we not losing valuable info VeritasAussies_nr: you read my mind, Fang PHMowgli: geez I need new fingers tonight I cannot type straight PHMorgan: What do you mean, Mow? coastalbirdhouse_nr: travlin, I have had some bad and goos experiences with "well bred" dogs travlinpom_nr: coast, it you dont compete, how do you know what their "quality" is sensationalfelin: it is not what yo say it is how you say it-some one will always listen if told with respect for whom you are tellin!! PHFang: I have a friend who's just starting to breed CC for show. She's not willing to do appropriate testing as her "lines " don't have any problems. Now see, that's the attitude that some show breeders take and she's supposedly oneof the responsible ones PHMowgli: I meant that if we lower ourselves to the uneducated persons level in our breeds trying to explain I going to pick an easy one and say color coastalbirdhouse_nr: Travlin, from their parents abd I choose not to compete PHMowgli: and we use terms such as the yellow and white rather than lemon is this not a disservice? PHFang: That's true sensational, but often times ppl only hear what they want to no matter how softly you break it to them. LOL PHMowgli: and I find often that I say well they are not yellow the term for our breed is lemon they get defensive immediately PHMorgan: WHy would you "dumb down" your information, Mow? These folks are not retarded (ok some seem it) but just ignorant. Ignorant just means they DON"T KNOW coastalbirdhouse_nr: my labs are certified for their hips, but do I think I should charge extra for that? no PHMorgan: That's what I mean, Mow, it's very hard to phrase information to folk swithout condescending PHFang: Heck, I didn't know shelties came in lellow :) PHMowgli: yes Morgan but how can we if we do not dumb down our speaking that is what I am asking LOL PHMowgli: they don't fang LOL PHMorgan: I think there is a difference between simplification and baby talk PHFang: Yes, Mo it's just hard to get that across sometimes LOL PHMowgli: I find it easiest to refer them to books LOL sensationalfelin: you don't look at that way"dumb down"-all you have to do is think it and most will feel intimadated PHMorgan: Meaning, you might simplify your explanation of ANYTHING to a person, who, say didn't speak english as their first language, but you wouldn't necessarily speak baby talk to them.... Does that make sense? berta: I thought I was in the twilight zone for a minute there with the lemon shelties travlinpom_nr: I have to agree with Mow . . . if i correct someone who says their pet pom is "apricot", they get defensive, no matter how i say it VeritasAussies_nr: Makes sense to me, Morgan. You just have to find the right way to tell someone something PHMorgan: RIght, Verita - that's what I mena PHMowgli: I know trav that is what I was saying so how can we educate when people refuse to learn PHMorgan: And I do GET that it's extremely difficult PHMorgan: I have also had these conversations VeritasAussies_nr: When I go to sell a pup to someone, if they don't want to learn I won't sell them a puppy. Simple as that travlinpom_nr: I have even had folks get mad and yell at me . . insisting that it was a RARE color and I didnt know what i was talking about PHMorgan: And there certainly ARE folks out there WHO DO NOT WANT TO KNOW PHMorgan: THey don't care what they are doing wrong PHMorgan: THey DO breed just for money PHMorgan: They ARE out there PHMowgli: and the people who refuse to learn yet are still breeding fluffy to muffy are the main producers of the pets in shelters and rescues PHMorgan: Absolutely coastalbirdhouse_nr: Trav, we had people fighting over an albino, insisting he was a "rare"white PHFang: Exactly, Mow PHMorgan: And what I'm saying is that WE have to find a way to INCLUDE them so we CAN eduate them PHMorgan: *educate VeritasAussies_nr: I've run into many breeders in my breed who won't or don't CERF or OFA coastalbirdhouse_nr: I gave him to someone that would nueter him VeritasAussies_nr: because their l ines are "Clean".. How do you know, if you don't test? PHFang: It's nice if you can invite them to attend a dog show near you....they seem to really be a lot more open there PHMorgan: So.... PHMowgli: so what they are doing to our breeds is horrible and deplorable and we as responsible reputatble breeders owe it to our breeds to keep producing pups regardless of the numbers of pets in shelters and rescue PHMorgan: Getting back again to our question.... Do we really think WE should NOT breed because there are uneduated and/or uncaring folks out there populating the world with unsuitable examples of the breed?? PHFang: Veritas, I am fighting that battle with hips with my crested friend....and one of my Min Pin friends too. Their "lines" don't have problems...nobody tests so how would they know? PHMorgan: MOw - STOP READING MY MIND PHFang: brb PHMowgli: sorry MOrgan you said so so I answered you LOL travlinpom_nr: No I certainly wont stop breeding because there are idiots out there PHMorgan: BUt I think it is also imperitive taht we KEEP trying to EDUCATE PHMorgan: I mean after all, WE know the pyramid effect of ONE dog not spayed.... PHMowgli: and by the way if we did stop breeding can you imagine our breeds in say 20 yrs??? PHMorgan: Think how teaching ONE person can eliminate that pyramid of unwanted dogs coastalbirdhouse_nr: if the responsible breeders stop, it will only allow for more iresponsible travlinpom_nr: Morgan, good luck with that . . . . PHMowgli: we would have all poor quality pets in this coutnry PHMorgan: So, I just keep trying VeritasAussies_nr: Fang, I got on the wrong end of a breeder like that in Aussies. I wasn't educated enough, and come to find out. Only the sire's side of one of my now "pet" Aussies were ever OFA'd or CERF'd.She's been breeding for 25 years! berta: If all responsible breeders don't breed because the byb or puppymillers are producing too many pups pretty soon the genetic diseases will be more prevailant than they are now VeritasAussies_nr: It made me sick to find that out years later. Thank GOD I never bred him PHFang: Ignorance is bliss, Aussie PHMorgan: If in my lifetime I only educate ONE person enough to stop them from breeding their unsuitable dog, then I have done a service for my breed and it's rescue and shelter dogs VeritasAussies_nr: Here here Fang PHMowgli: yes Morgan and if you produce just one litter of quality puppies to carry on their genetics that is a service to the breed PHFang: In the right hands!! PHMorgan: Exactly PHMorgan: So it's a two handed battle.... VeritasAussies_nr: That would be why my kennel name means Truth in Latin.. PHMowgli: and some of the pet owners who do breed who are doing so with help of experienced breeders and using quality dogs are not the problem PHMorgan: And even three handed if we are also participating in rescue PHMorgan: LOL VeritasAussies_nr: I have no secrets when it comes to my dogs. PHFang: And sometimes that policy gets ppl angry, Aussie VeritasAussies_nr: Yes, it does Fang! PHMowgli: oh yeah fang tell me about it LOL PHFang: I've been accused by long term breeders of being too honest!! IMAGINE PHMorgan: Me either... I admit it. SCarlett is an incurable underwear thief. VeritasAussies_nr: I'd rather them be angry and educated then ignorant and happy. PHFang: They are real upset with me for talking about ......hey we have PROBLEMS here folks VeritasAussies_nr: Yep Fang. PHFang: They prefer to ignore it.....and hope it goes away PHMowgli: veritas occasionally I want to be ignortant and blissful LOL coastalbirdhouse_nr: people that are breeding bad dogs do NOT care PHFang: Welcome to Breeders Chat!!! Tonight's topic: Should the popularity of our breed, and the numbers of our breed in rescue and shelters, affect our breeding decisions? If our goal as responsible breeders is to preserve and improve our chosen breeds, does the fact that thousands of irresponsibly bred members of our breeds are flooding the shelters make us more or less likely to continue with our breeding programs? VeritasAussies_nr: I'll be the first to come right out and say YES there ARE eye issues in some of my bloodlines. And that upsets other breeders, because they don't want that known. PHFang: Hi Brianl PHMorgan: The really scary thing is that not only do some folks not care, but some folks just DON"T KNOW coastalbirdhouse_nr: they are the people pawning off overbred females left and right PHMorgan: They really don't PHMowgli: especially when I have to clean up a mess and I do not want to know which dog made it LOL VeritasAussies_nr: Me too Mow.. But unfortunately, I can't un-learn what I knwo. PHMorgan: And that is the shame of it all PHMowgli: veritas do you have collie eye or pra in aussies? brianl_nr: could anyone here give me some assistance with a stubborn 10mo boston terrier? PHMorgan: SURELY PHMorgan: Shoot brian VeritasAussies_nr: we most certainly have CEA in Aussies PHMorgan: FIrst piece of advice is YOU have to be more stubborn than said Boston... But go ahead -what's the problem brianl_nr: she will not housebreak for the life of me PHFang: Sorry folks...hub is having a "moment" with the puppy here.....LOL VeritasAussies_nr: it corps up all the time. Along with cataracts, and Iris Coloboma PHMowgli: I kinda assumed they did although often breeders say no way PHMorgan: Does she have a crate? brianl_nr: i tried crate, alls she did was deficate in it VeritasAussies_nr: they do, and any breeder who says otherwise is lying or uneducated PHMorgan: BTW, in my experience, Bostons are NOTORIOUSLY hard to housebreak sensationalfelin: oh no PHMowgli: veritas I have shelties so I know all aabout cea and colobomas I also have a smooth collie PHMorgan: That is certainly better than doing that in your living room, Brian VeritasAussies_nr: it's terrible, Mow.. The eye problems travlinpom_nr: brian, where did you get her? PHMowgli: oh lying I am sure veritas as they are selling puppies brianl_nr: the crate was the smallest we could get, and thats what the vet told us to get and its like she enjoys deficating and rolling around in it. PHMorgan: Um, yes, this is all sounding very familiar, Brian sensationalfelin: ew PHMowgli: well I will not get into aussies then I am so tired of eyes tests driving 4 hrs one way to get my cerfs LOL travlinpom_nr: Bridan, how she was raised as a small puppy will make a difference in her housebreaking brianl_nr: we got here from a reputable private breeder VeritasAussies_nr: Mow, I KNOW! PHMorgan: (I was benched across from a Boston breeder at a benched show once...) sensationalfelin: and berta: How do you define reputable? VeritasAussies_nr: We have one CERF guy here, he is AWESOME. But he only comes to the local clinic once a week and one exam is close to $90 PHMowgli: I love it when I get a show with eye tests when I need it VeritasAussies_nr: Unless you are lucky enough to find an eye clinic travlinpom_nr: brian, how does the breeder keep her puppies? in crates? paper trained? etc . . . VeritasAussies_nr: That a club is putting on. PHMowgli: veritas I have to go to cindy wheeler at MSU brianl_nr: now we keep here baby-gated in the kitchen all day because i got tired of here making a mess of herself now at least she doesn't roll in it berta: local kennel club here sponsors two a year one in fall and one in the spring VeritasAussies_nr: I use Dr.Milichamp, out of A&M brianl_nr: the breeder just had a room in the house for the puppies PHMorgan: Brian - are you using newspaper? brianl_nr: no PHMowgli: here too bert but I never seem to have pups then LOL PHFang: Brian--how long is she kept in a crate during the day? coastalbirdhouse_nr: brian was the breeder using any paper or anything? PHMorgan: You are just leaving her loose to mess anywhere in the kitchen? brianl_nr: well i don't have much of a choice, its either that or all over herself in the crate travlinpom_nr: brian, it might be easiest to paper train her first, then work on outside training PHMowgli: my pups always need to be tested 3-4 weeks prior to or after the clinics LOL brianl_nr: i know she can hold it because she has before coastalbirdhouse_nr: we got a chocolate that had been allowed to go anywhere and it took extra work to train him PHFang: Welcome to Breeders Chat!!! Tonight's topic: Should the popularity of our breed, and the numbers of our breed in rescue and shelters, affect our breeding decisions? If our goal as responsible breeders is to preserve and improve our chosen breeds, does the fact that thousands of irresponsibly bred members of our breeds are flooding the shelters make us more or less likely to continue with our breeding programs? PHFang: Hi emme VeritasAussies_nr: yep Mow, that's always how it works PHMowgli: hey emme PHFang: How long is she in the crate during the day Brian? brianl_nr: she is trained pretty good to go outside when we take her out, its more or less she goes inside out of spite because we won't even be gone 10 minutes and she deficates sensationalfelin: is it true a dog (if fed good food should only poop once or twice a day? travlinpom_nr: brian, have you talked to the breeder about the problem? does she have suggestions? coastalbirdhouse_nr: we have an area outside during the day and then try to make sure we do "potty trips" on a regualr baisi PHMowgli: I am pleased to say I have never had anything but normals but I know if I did not test a litter I would have an affected pup I missed brianl_nr: we haven't talked the the breeder since we got here, its a ways away from here PHFang: How did you find the breeder Brian? VeritasAussies_nr: That's good to hear Mow. That's really something to have all Normal/Normals brianl_nr: referral from friend PHFang: How long have you had the puppy? PHMowgli: veritas in shelties it is not really suprising we do not have many eye problems thankfully the breeders are good about testing VeritasAussies_nr: well all, I am off for the night. I will return soon though! PHFang: oops. lost Mo brianl_nr: she was 14 weeks when we got here nows shes 10 months old sensationalfelin: niters Aus travlinpom_nr: brian, good breeders are happy to take your phone calls . . . give her a call and see what she thinks . . . she knows her own breed better than the average person PHMowgli: niters veritas PHFang: And she has been doing this all along? VeritasAussies_nr: Night all. brianl_nr: ok, were gonna try calling her tomorrow emmemay_nr: Hi All. PHMowgli: 3 min to show dog so get your gripes and brags ready LOL sensationalfelin: can i ask a question? PHFang: howdy emme brianl_nr: any other tips though because i know she does it to make us mad because we leave PHFang: sure sensational PHMowgli: of course sense PHFang: Brian, give her a kong, or great chewey don't make leaving a big deal.... PHMowgli: hey emme how are you this week? sensationalfelin: any suggestions to cure tear stains? travlinpom_nr: brian, unlikely that she does it to make you mad. you may see it that way, but she really doesnt reason it quite that far brianl_nr: we give her several toys brianl_nr: when she goes, its only a little bit though brianl_nr: just enough to piss me off emmemay_nr: I am fin mo. Don't want to interupt. PHFang: How long is she in a crate during the day Brian? brianl_nr: 7hrs travlinpom_nr: brian, also have her vet checked to be sure she doesnt have a problem brianl_nr: she has been vet checked berta: She could be doing it from the stress of being left alone PHMowgli: brian if you get upset that is a problem you should not get upset at a pup who is having problems sensationalfelin: 7 hrs is a long time coastalbirdhouse_nr: long time brianl_nr: i don't really get upset brianl_nr: 10 months old should be able to hold for 8rs coastalbirdhouse_nr: I am not sure our young dogs could wait that long PHMowgli: and yes 7 hrs is a long time maybe you could geta pet sitter to come in during day or take her to puppy day are PHFang: 7 hours for a 10 month old is a looooooooong time especially a small dog Brian PHFang: Welcome to Breeders Chat!!! Tonight's topic: Should the popularity of our breed, and the numbers of our breed in rescue and shelters, affect our breeding decisions? If our goal as responsible breeders is to preserve and improve our chosen breeds, does the fact that thousands of irresponsibly bred members of our breeds are flooding the shelters make us more or less likely to continue with our breeding programs? PHMowgli: day care* travlinpom_nr: Seven hours is too long to expect her to waite . . . can someone come home to let her out during the day? brianl_nr: i used to come home during lunch and she didn't go when i took her outside or she already went PHMowgli: she should only be forced to hold it for 3-4 hrs at a time at her age sensationalfelin: agree brianl_nr: but she has proven to me on a couple occassions that she can hold it for 7 hrs coastalbirdhouse_nr: how long did you have her out at lunch? sensationalfelin: dogs are animals of habit brianl_nr: 15-20 minutes travlinpom_nr: brian, i think paper trainging may be your best bet. If you are gone seven hours a day, she needs a place where she can learn that it it OKAY to go coastalbirdhouse_nr: my young ones take longer to find their spot
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