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Transcript: Dog Breeding Chat Tuesday, Sept. 21, 2004: Weaning PHChristy: Welcome to Dog Breeders' Chat! Our topic tonight is Weaning! PHChristy: ooops, didn't mean to send that LOL DogCatLover07: that's ok PHChristy: This is a favorite topic of mine PHMorgan: Well, we will give folks a few minutes to show up PHMorgan: I plan to keep the lecture VERY short since there are so many differing opinions about how to wean puppies PHMorgan: That will give us time for discussion and debate DogCatLover07: i don't really know anything about weaning PHMorgan: Well, then you have come to the right place PHMorgan: LOL PHMorgan: These chats are about learning AND sharing what we know jackie_nr: anybody got a black lab? PHMorgan: So, knowing zippo on a given subject is just fine. PHMorgan: EVen for me.... LOL PHChristy: I have Scottish Deerhounds DogCatLover07: i had a lab mix at one point jackie_nr: yea my lab is a mix too PHMorgan: So, weaning can take place at different times based on various situations....
PHChristy: Oh, ValK911 emailed me that she's not going to be here, she has a show to get ready for
MiniSch_nr: Dog, we can only give our experiences, if we have gone through it and by comparing those experiences learn
PHMorgan: Sometimes momdog isn't able or willing to nurse pups, and you have to wean earlier than you might have planned
jackie_nr: how did you like your lab mix dogcat?
PHMorgan: Sometimes there is a health concern (mastitus, infection) which means it's not advisable to permit teh bitch to nurse.
PHChristy: Welcome to Dog Breeders' Chat! Our topic tonight is Weaning. While we are doing this presentation, please type ? if you have a question and ! if you have a comment, and wait to be called on. Once it's done we'll open the discussion again.
DogCatLover07: she was very hyper dog
PHMorgan: I would absolutely NOT begin pups on any kind of kibble or other foods until they are at LEAST 3 weeks old.
jackie_nr: mine is hyper too but smart
PHMorgan: If they must be weaned before 3 weeks, you should use some kind of mother's milk replacement such as esbilac, goat's milk or other similiar concoction - we ahve discussed these options in previous chats
PHMorgan: SO I'm not going to repeat that right now
PHMorgan: Personaly, I like to do TWO things when weaning.
jackie_nr: why do you get to pick the subject?
PHMorgan: Because I am the chat host
PHMorgan: :-D
PHMorgan: ONE: Introduce the pups to "real food" one item at a time
PHMorgan: and TWO: Teach good eating habits from the beginning
PHMorgan: It's best to introduce the pups to food when they are hungry, so I generally take momdog away from the pups for 2-3 hours before presenting them with food
DunMadra: Hey Gang
PHMorgan: What *I* give is a mixture of soaked kibble, warm water, goat's milk, and yogurt. My pups have been getting goat's milk and yogurt from about day 1
DogCatLover07: hey dunmadra
jackie_nr: hi dunmadra we're stuck with only one subject i'm being bullied here
DogCatLover07: hey, dogaroo....i remember u...i was kitty2007..before
PHMorgan: I generally put it down in a flat bowl or tray, and plant the pups in front of it. Most of them will sniff it and dive right in, but anyone confused can be encouraged by putting a smear on their mouth
PHMorgan: Don't worry if one or two don't seem interested. THey will catch up.
DogCatLover07: kitty2007 was my guest name
PHMorgan: Now, to encourage good eating habits, it's a great idea to give them only about 5-10 minutes, then either take away the food or let momdog in to clean up
DunMadra: ?
Dogaroo: hi
PHMorgan: The shorter time they have to eat, and the less the food is sitting around in the box, the better they will learn to eat up quickly
PHChristy: Dun, please ga!
DunMadra: On the subject of eating ...
DunMadra: Has anyone heard of adult onset mega?
DogCatLover07: nope
PHMorgan: Usuallyo I offer ONE meal a day for the first 3-4 days, then increase to two, then 3-4 meals day by the time the pups are 4-5 weeks old
PHMorgan: Meanwhile, I do NOT remove momdog forcibly from the pups. This is very important. Firstly, the pups will still need to be nursing while they learn how to eat food
PHMorgan: Second, it's horribly uncomfortable for the bitch to be full of milk with nobody to relieve her
PHMorgan: MOmdog will be more comfrotable and actulaly will regain her figure more quickly if she's permitted to GRADUALLY wean the pups from her
PHMorgan: NOw, I know Christy has some GREAT input on this subject as she takes a very holistic approach to raising pups - so I'm going to have her share some of her ideas with us, as well. Then we can discuss all of YOUR ideas - I'm sure we've got a lot to share between us.
PHMorgan: Welcome to Breeder CHat!
PHChristy: Actually, while some of what I have to say is "holistic," some of it is based on some veterinary research
PHChristy: that I read by Donald Strombeck DVM PhD, a professor of veterinary gastroenterology at UC Davis and author of the standard veterinary text "Small Animal Gastroenterology"
DogCatLover07: gotta go everyone...bye
PHChristy: Dr. Strombeck discusses the development of the intestinal tract of newborn puppies
PHChristy: a process of adaptation allows newborns to be able to digest things other than mother's milk
PHChristy: when they are born, their intestinal tracts are free of bacteria
PHChristy: and they produce little or no gastric acid
PHChristy: as they develop, gastric acid will help their intestinal tract fight off bacteria and viruses and parasites that they will encounter
PHChristy: it will also allow the formation of a mucous barrier and a layer of cells, that work together to prevent viruses, bacteria, and foreign proteins to enter the body through the intestinal lining
PHChristy: part of what gets this process moving, and ensures it progresses normally, is a certain type of beneficial intestinal bacteria that lives in the system of puppies getting mother's milk
PHChristy: as soon as a puppy gets ANY other food than other's milk, even one mouthful of formula, that bacterial population is permanently changed
PHChristy: According to Dr. Strombeck, this will result in the potential development of immune disorders including allergies as well as some more serious problems
PHChristy: it can also make the puppies more susceptible to viruses, bacteria, and parasites
PHChristy: he recommends that we delay giving puppies any foods other than mother's milk as late as possible - he suggests 6 weeks if at all possible
PHChristy: and if not, then as close to it as we can go
PHMorgan: !
PHChristy: and then, as Morgan already said, to introduce only one single food item (not a food such as a kibble or a recipe, but one food ITEM, such as beef or egg)
PHChristy: in order to expose the puppy to only one foreign protein at a time, instead of bombarding the intestine with several at once
PHChristy: Morgan GA
PHMorgan: I try to get as far past 4 weeks as possible when starting pups on real food - particularly since momdog often stops cleaning up after them..... But also for the reasons Christy is stating.... Having large litters can affect how long one can delay weaning
PHMorgan: ga
PHChristy: I agree
PHMorgan: I really can't imagine going much past 4-5 weeks for food
PHChristy: you have to hav ea certain flexibility and do what's best for that litter, or an individual puppy
PHChristy: I think that many breeders are surprised when they try it
PHChristy: to find that it works well
PHMorgan: Usually pups are climbing into momdogs bowl by 3-4 weeks
PHChristy: you simply feed MOM more....
PHMorgan: LOL
Dogaroo: ? curiosity question only
PHChristy: well, I wouldn't feed momdog in the box with the puppies, if I was going to try this method
PHChristy: Dogaroo GA
PHMorgan: GA, Dog
PHChristy: actually, I HAVE tried this method... and we got to 5 weeks with a litter of Scottish Deerhounds
Dogaroo: One pup doesn't make a scientific study, but sometimes I've wondered....
MiniSch_nr: I got to 5 weeks with a litter of miniature schnauzers.
PHMorgan: I tried iwth Z's litter of 10 (plus she had Solo's 3 by 3 weeks of age so she had 13)
PHChristy: we can open the room to general discussion of the topic now, we don't need to do the ? and ! anymore. :)
PHMorgan: Was feeding the poor girl 3 meals of 6-8 cups a day
PHChristy: so just feel free to speak up
Dogaroo: Gunnar was abandoned (or, at least, found) at 5 weeks. He started life w/ various immune issues. To this day he has multiple food allergies. I've wondered if it could have been related to being off mom's milk & getting foreign proteins too soon.
PHMorgan: She had every rib hanging out and her spine - we finally gave up at about 4 weeks and EVERYONE was relieved
PHChristy: well, I think with very large litters it's quite hard to do
PHChristy: but it's still IMO a guideline
PHMowgli: Well with my pups I have had mom nurse till 16 weeks before but of course I think my moms are nuts LOL
PHMorgan: I knew I could get no further when Z was regurgitating food for them - SHE said FEED THE MONSTERS NOW
PHMorgan: LOLOL
PHMorgan: Oh, my momdogs will still nurse until the pups are GONE, but we can't seem to get much past 4-5 weeks wihtout some kind of food for them besides nursing
MiniSch_nr: My last litter had to be supplemented from the first few days because the mom didn't have enough milk - only 2 nipples had milk at 4 days old. They have had challenges that I feel are because they got the foreign substances so early.
PHChristy: Dogaroo, I'm sure that's the case... According to Dr. Strombeck, "Very young animals eating commercial pet food absorb undigested material than can cause allergies. Diets with many new and poorly digested ingredients should not be fed until animals mature. The gasterointestinal system needs time to mature. The mucosal phsyical barrier needs time to develop."
gracie_nr: what time does the floor open for general discussion?
PHChristy: gracie, not until 11 PM Easter tonight
gracie_nr: ok thank u
Dogaroo: brb, dog puking
PHMorgan: OH dear
PHChristy: sometimes we do need to supplement our puppies, obviously you can't let them starve!
PHChristy: I had to supplement my singleton until his mama got milk in at the fifth day
MiniSch_nr: I was also giving them nutridrops from the first week too. I think I will hold off on those as well.
PHMorgan: Christy -so Strombeck recommends what kind of diet progression?
PHChristy: I didn't LIKE it, but obviously it's better to have a dog with allergies (which he didn't get anyway) than a dead puppy!
PHMorgan: I ahve had to supplement some tinier (relatively) pups early on so they could keep up.
PHChristy: I think there has to be a certain susceptibility to allergies also
PHChristy: Morgan, he recommends adding in one single food item at a time
PHMorgan: It's not worth losing pups to try and improve their immune system if they don't survive to use it.... LOL
PHChristy: he advocates feeding cooked, homemade diets
PHMorgan: So at what point does this mucosal membrane develop?
PHChristy: and has a book of recipes, including weaning and puppy growth recipes, written for pet owners
PHMowgli: ah christy he goes along with me LOL
PHChristy: Morgan, at 6 weeks it's generally intact enough to handle introducing foreign proteins, but he prefers they be one at a time
PHMorgan: GOtcha
PHChristy: and that they be animal protein such as meat, rather than cereals
MiniSch_nr: Yes Christy - I have five wonderful puppies because I supplemented them that two weeks. I would have lost more than just the one I lost the day after they were born.
PHMorgan: Now, not to disagree with Dr. Strombeck, but i've always started my pups on kibble and goat's milk and never had an allergy issue
PHChristy: His book for pet owners is called "Home Prepared Dog and Cat Diets: The Healthful Alternative"
PHMowgli: so goats milk and gerber jarred meats would qualify for his puppy diets adding jut one at a time of course?
PHChristy: Morgan, that may well be the case, but he doesn't LIMIT the problems to allergies
PHMorgan: But it is also true that there are a TON of bloodlines out there with numerous allergy issues
PHChristy: and I believe that with most things, there does have to be a certain susceptibility
PHMorgan: What other problems does he cite?
PHChristy: A wide variety of immune system problems, not just allergies and not just food sensitivities
MiniSch_nr: I usually start with goats milk and gerger rice cereal.
PHMorgan: OK gotcha
PHChristy: basically, the neonatal immune system is starting to develop
PHMorgan: I have used the rice cereal but I hate how sticky and oogy it is.... LOL
PHChristy: and it evolved to develop in the presence of a certain environment
PHChristy: by feeding "unnatural" foods... foods on which the species didn't evolve ... we alter that internal environment
MiniSch_nr: Yes, it is fun - they are gluey if you don't get them cleaned up right away. Good think my bitch would clean them up.
Dogaroo: k, back... Kaija got teeth cleaned & smoothed & hips x-rayed today. She's a bit queasy.
Dogaroo: ..and so am I... *sigh*
PHChristy: and the more we alter it (which could vary from dog to dog, breed to breed, line to line), the more likely we are to trigger or create problems
Dogaroo: Kaija has mild unilateral HD.
PHChristy: Dog, I'm sorry to hear that!
PHMorgan: Aw, poor Kaiji
PHMorgan: And poor you - the treatment is MORE EXERICSE... LOLOL
MiniSch_nr: poor Kaiji - what breed?
Dogaroo: She wasn't showing lameness but I wanted her checked b/c of her history.
PHMorgan: Keep thosemuscles strong around those joints... hehehe
Dogaroo: Yeah I know! lol
PHChristy: In his books, he has a chapter called "A Weaning Protocol to Prevent Allergies"
PHChristy: it would be very helpful IMO for those with extremely allergy-prone breeds, such as Westies, to see if adhering to this type of protocol would improve the incidence of allergies in the breed
Dogaroo: She's a German Shepherd, got her at just under a year... she was severely underweight, terrible stinky coat, brown gunked up teeth, rock chewing habit, had been kept on a chain & had no muscle tone in rear
MiniSch_nr: Can you get his books easily or do you have to go to a vet library?
PHMorgan: They are probably on AMazon
PHChristy: Mini, the book I'm talking about is available on Amazon
Dogaroo: Maybe I'll have to buy a swimming pool.
PHMorgan: <---is addicted to amazon.com
PHChristy: it's here in the DogHobbyist bookstore
MiniSch_nr: What is the name again?
PHChristy: Home Prepared Dog and Cat Diets: The HEalthful Alternative
PHMowgli: Christy actually I do follow that protocal although I never read the book just going on other stuff I have read and you have taught me and I do not have the allergies in my dogs as so many others of my breed so he may be right to a point
PHChristy: by Donald Strombeck DVM PhD
PHMorgan: It really does also makemore work when you wean pups. I find as soon as the pups are eating regular foods, momdog refuses to clean up the box
PHMorgan: NOw you have all these active pups trampling through a dirty box - much more work - I always try to make sure pups are going outdoors regularly when I begin feeding - it's a good beginning to housebreaking
Dogaroo: Kaija is going to be on a supplement w/ MSM, glucosamine, Vit. C & Perna Canaliculus in it.
PHChristy: here is the direct link to the book: http://www.doghobbyist.com/books/bookdetail.php?ASIN=0813821495
MiniSch_nr: Ok, question for you. How soon after having a litter can I show my bitch in conformation?
MiniSch_nr: Thanks Christy
PHMorgan: As soon as she is back in shape and no longer a risk to the pups bringing gersm home to them
PHMorgan: So, it depends on your bitch, and when you vaccinate pups
PHMorgan: I generally find they don't look like much until the pujps are about 4-5 months old - they are NAKED as well
PHMorgan: Most bitches blow their coats as soon as the pups are no longer nursing
MiniSch_nr: Well it takes 13 weeks for her to grow coat and I won't strip her until after the pups are weaned - want all the good stuff going to the pups
PHChristy: I have never had a bitch blow coat
PHChristy: which I wonder really why that is
MiniSch_nr: until they are weaned.
PHChristy: not after heat, not after pups, never
PHMorgan: Me too - mine have no coat anyhow but they still blow what htey have
PHChristy: LOL Morgan
MiniSch_nr: We actually strip (pluck) their coats to the skin - she is bare when I finish.
PHChristy: My bitches lose some hair around their nipples
PHChristy: but other than that, they don't
PHChristy: I know it's a hormonal thing, but I wonder if there aren't other factors, such as nutrition or stress or genetics, that influence it
PHMowgli: mine never blow coat just on bely and around nipples
PHMowgli: belly
PHChristy: deerhounds aren't a coated breed like, say, a Borzoi, but they DO have a coat
MiniSch_nr: Inca has lost some hair around her nipples - I need to clipper her and bath her tonight. Today is 59 days from first breeding.
PHChristy: and I've seen deerhound bitches other than mine who blow coat
PHChristy: Mini, you're getting close!
PHMowgli: mine are very heavy coated breed
PHMorgan: Mini - I think I woudl not worry too much about showing - I suspect by the time your bitch is back in coat after this litter, she iwll also be back in shape and ready to show again
PHMorgan: ALtho I find mine are uslal looking good by the time pups are 3 months, but then they get FAT AS HOGS on teh season AFTER the pups. Duncan is now 6 months, Z has just come into season again and is on a very strict diet. SHe is NOT PLEASED
PHChristy: anyone have any other comments or questions about weaning?
PHMorgan: Mini - have you been taking her temp? Any progress there? She digging any?
PHMowgli: well just one christy
PHChristy: what is that Mow?
PHMowgli: why do we as breeders even attempt to wean puppies? why not let the moms do the weaning afterall don't they know best usually?
MiniSch_nr: yes, temps
PHMowgli: ok that was 2 LOL
PHMowgli: and yes I just have to be difficult and make problems LOL
PHMorgan: I would say that *I* don't wean pups, my momdog does, but I DO introduce food
PHChristy: well, the term "weaning" IMO covers the whole process of introducing food
PHMorgan: It's up to momdog how often she wants to nurse - I NEVER prevent her for more than a few hours, and that only 1-2 times when first introducing food
PHChristy: all puppies have to be "weaned," in that they need to have foods introduced to them
PHMowgli: ok thanks which by the way those answers are excatly what I was looking for to be in the transcripts
PHChristy: but as for "force weaning," meaning forcing puppies to stop nursing, I think that's obscene
PHChristy: unless it's done for medical reasons, of course
PHMorgan: And I find that while many momdogs will regurgitate food, they seem to also feel compelled to eat it THEMSELVES
PHChristy: if the dam is on drugs that would harm the puppies, illness, etc
PHMorgan: LOL
MiniSch_nr: I had problems with my last litter because I let Mom nurse the pups too long - she got mastitis when the pups were 8 weeks old. She was passing the infection to them and it compromised their immune system and they got giardia from my house water.
PHChristy: LOL Morgan
PHMorgan: Force weaning is obscene.
PHChristy: Mini, 8 weeks is not too long!
PHChristy: My moms ROUTINELY are still nursing babies at 12 weeks
PHMowgli: for anyone who was not here and just reds transcripts I want them to know forced weaning is not normal behavior
PHMorgan: Anyone who has ever nursed a child can sympathize with a momdog wiht full breasts
MiniSch_nr: I weaned them between 5 and 6 weeks, and I was feeding them and then she started feeding them again.
PHMorgan: Mine are also routinely nursing to 8 and 10 weeks
PHMorgan: The bitch didn't get mastitis because the pups were nursing too long
PHChristy: Mini, she did not get mastitis because you let the puppies nurse "too long"
PHChristy: GMTA Morgan
MiniSch_nr: At 10 weeks old I found blood when I squeezed her nipples
PHChristy: I don't dispute she got mastitis
PHMowgli: Mokey nursed violet till 16 weeks now that was a singleton but usually my girls nurse up until 12 weeks then they just won't let pups nurse anymore and ake them et their food
PHMorgan: Nursing can help prevent mastitis by keeping the breasts from becoming impacted
PHChristy: I'm just saying, it wasn't becuas eyou let them nurse til 8 weeks... more likely it was because it sounds like she STOPPED nursing... or for other reasons
PHChristy: but any bitch should be able to nurse a litter to 8 weeks or longer
PHChristy: unless something is wrong with her
MiniSch_nr: She did not present the classic mastis - her breasts were never swollen.
PHMorgan: I find even bitches who are damaged from nursing pups (nicks or wounds from puppy teeth or pulling) still desire to nurse the pups for their own comfort
PHChristy: Hello thorncolly! welcome to Dog Breeding Chat, we're discussing Weaning!
PHMowgli: hi thorn
PHMorgan: Then she simply had some kind of infection - certainly a reason to have to wean the pups earlier than one might haev
PHMorgan: Hi, Mastador
MiniSch_nr: This is the same bitch that didn't have milk in but 2 of her breasts at 4 days old. The milk finally did come in and then just wouldn't leave.
mastador: Hello there
PHMowgli: himastador
PHChristy: Hello Mastador! Welcome to Dog Breeding Chat! Our topic tonight is Weaning.
PHChristy: Mini, sounds like something was going on with her
PHMorgan: Mini - I guess she figured better late than never... poor girl
PHChristy: I would not let it stop me from letting bitches nurse their litters to 8 weeks or beyond
PHChristy: the longer the better
PHMorgan: Sometimes there is a hormonal imbalance that can affect nursing
PHChristy: mother's milk contains non-specific immune factors that help with disease resistance
PHChristy: such as interferon
PHMorgan: I find it is MUCH better for momdog to decrease nursing gradually, at HER pace
PHChristy: human mother's milk kills polio virus in the test tube EVEN IF THE MOTHER DOES NOT HAVE ANTIBODIES TO POLIO VIRUS
PHMowgli: with ashleys firt litter mini she could not nurse she had pus and blood in her milk due to an infection however her second and last litter she nursed until 13 weeks so often there is a reason to not allow mom to nurse and no-one would ever say it is wrong to bottle fedd in that case
PHChristy: mother's milk is a miraculous food
PHMorgan: Z will willingly nurse even when the pups are so eager that htey pull her down, rather than be full and uncomfortable
PHChristy: there is nothing we can concoct for them that is better
MiniSch_nr: Really scared me when I squeezed her breasts and got blood - the reason I checked was I just didn't believe she could still have milk.
PHChristy: Well, even bitches who have never had a litter will produce milk if puppies nurse on them
PHMorgan: I cna't imagine the pain that some dogs go through when forcibly weaned from their pups
PHMowgli: mini with blood in milk it is not good to allow pup;s to nurse and you did the right thing by removing mom from them
PHChristy: so there's really no reason it would dry up
PHChristy: I agree, of course, not to let puppies nurse on infected moms!
PHChristy: I'm talking about normal litters, healthy dams and pups
PHMorgan: I have had dogs not anytime near a season or a false pregnancy produce milk when exposed to puppies of nursing age
MiniSch_nr: She didn't have trouble with her first two litters, but this litter was premature.
PHChristy: I think that forced weaning is literally cruelty to animals
PHMorgan: A friend brought a litter of 8 week old pups to my house (long story) for the weekend and Morgan had milk by the second evening
PHMorgan: She was happy to take over mothering those pups
PHMorgan: I agree, Christy
MiniSch_nr: And I bet the mom was happy to let her
PHMorgan: ANd it's unhealthy for pups AND momdog
PHMorgan: Mom was not there
PHChristy: when my friend's bitch died, her housemate took over nursing and raising the litter
PHMowgli: good thing morgan mom may have disagree'd with that LOL
PHMorgan: She had to be shipped back to her co-owner.... Like I said, Long nasty story
PHChristy: she'd never had al itter of her own, but she got milk and was a really good mother
MiniSch_nr: I have a question about vacines - timing of puppy vacines.
PHChristy: Morgan... :(
PHMorgan: All of my dogs share in raising the pups
PHMorgan: ALtho usually if momdog is doing fine, nobody else gets milk
PHChristy: Mini, go ahead
PHChristy: Hi Trav! Welcome to Dog Breeding Chat! Our topic tonight is Weaning.
PHMorgan: Hi, Trav!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
PHMowgli: when chelsea died having her pups ( un caught rupture) mokey her littermate nursed her pups and she did not have pups at the time nor was in season or near season
PHMowgli: hi trav
MiniSch_nr: I need to take the pups to California at 8 weeks old to have their ears cropped and to have them evaluated. Normally I don't give the first vaccine until 8 weeks, but I am worried about traveling cross country without at least one vaccine in them.
travlinpom_nr: hey all
PHMorgan: Mini where do you live?
PHChristy: Mini....
PHMowgli: Oh I cannot comment on this one it will start a war LOL
PHChristy: it takes 10-14 days for the vaccine to take effect (IF it does at that age)
PHChristy: so you'd have to give it at SIX weeks, BUT...
MiniSch_nr: Denver
PHMorgan: Wow - what a trip! IS there nobody closer?
Dogaroo: We had a pit bull locally who adopted & produced milk for an orphaned litter
PHChristy: at six weeks, the puppies are too young to vaccinate
PHMorgan: COuldn't you pay to have them flown in?
PHChristy: so I can't see a way to do what you want to do
PHChristy: when you give vaccines at that young of an age, you INCREASE the risks and DECREASE the benefit
MiniSch_nr: The stud dog owner had in the contract that I needed to bring the pups back for evaluation at 8 weeks - she has first refusal for any pups I don't want to keep.
PHChristy: and then to follow that up with the trauma of travel and surgery
PHMorgan: I would even say you are better taking them WITHOUT vaccinations so long as they are still nursing
PHChristy: you might interfere with their developing immunity
PHMowgli: mini why can't the stud dog owner come to see them where you are?
travlinpom_nr: Are you driving them there, Mini?
PHMorgan: Does your contract SAY you ahve to BRING HTEM? Or just that they get to evaluate?
PHChristy: yeah, I'd fly out the PERSON, not the dogs!
MiniSch_nr: She has a heart problem and can't come to this altitude.
MiniSch_nr: Yep, I am driving them there.
PHMowgli: Well can't she wait till the pups are older then??
MiniSch_nr: The ear cropper is out there too and wants to crop at 8 weeks.
PHChristy: and you know, the canine combo vaccine that includes distemper and heptatitis has been shown to induce an immune suppression of up to 85 percent that lasts up to ten days
travlinpom_nr: Mini, just my opinion, but i would take them without shots and be very careful where they go
PHMowgli: hi GAC
PHChristy: Hi, GAc! Welcome to Dog Breeding Chat! Our topic tonight is Weaning.
GAChesters: Howdy room!!
PHMorgan: Fly in teh ear cropper and have the stud owner wait -0 the pups will only be easier to evaluate
PHChristy: we'll be switching to Showdog Chat in about four minutes
PHMorgan: Hi, GAC
PHMorgan: Were you planning ot leave the stud-owner's choice with them at that age?
PHChristy: Mini, do you feel that the evaluation and ear crop are MORE important than the puppies' health?
PHMorgan: Or take the pup home again?
Dogaroo: I'll be a bit distracted... trying to find hydrotherapy places in my area
PHMorgan: Poor mini will be thinking we are ganging up on her... But we are really just concerned.
PHMorgan: :-)
MiniSch_nr: No, Christy I don't feel that the evaluation is more important than their health.
PHMowgli: dog I hope kaija starts diong better
PHMorgan: If *I* were the stud owner I'd be happy to wait
PHChristy: I'm very sorry, I don't want to gang up on Mini!!!! I was just trying to clarify what I see as the issue.... not to suggest you dont' care!
MiniSch_nr: Ear cropping is hard on them when they are older - lots more blood and harder to heal. I had my last litter done at 3 months old.
MiniSch_nr: And I am still trying to get the one pups ears to stand.
Dogaroo: She's actually doing really well. I just want to do as much preventive maintenance as I can.
PHMorgan: I meant for teh evaluation
PHMorgan: NOt the cropping - it's clear that this needs doing at the right time
PHMowgli: hey dean
PHChristy: Folks, I want to thank you all for coming to Dog Breeding Chat tonight! I'm now going to turn the room over to PH Mowgli for SHOWDOG CHAT!
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