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PHChristy: I'm Christie Keith, the editor of PetHobbyist.com. Before we begin, all of us at PetHobbyist would like to mention that this year's Chat Week on DogHobbyist.com is dedicated to the memory of Kelly Coughlin, PHFrolic. Kelly was a part of our family and she will be much missed by all of us. PHChristy: On behalf of all of us at DogHobbyist.com, let me welcome you to our special guest chat with Pam Dennison on the topic of positive dog training. Clicker59: Christie Thanks PHChristy: Pam is author of The Complete Idiot's Guide to Positive Dog Training, Bringing Light to Shadow: A Dog Trainer's Diary, How to Right a Dog Gone Wrong: A Roadmap For Rehabilitating Aggressive Dogs, and coming soon, Click Your Way to Rally Obedience. PHChristy: She is also a member of the APDT (Association of Pet Dog Trainers), NADOI (National Association of Dog Obedience Instructors), DWAA (Dog Writers Association of America) and is a Certified Animal Behavior Consultant with the IAABC (International Association of Animal Behavior Consultants). Through her business, Positive Motivation Dog Training, she has helped over 1,000 dogs and handlers build their relationships and solve problems. PHChristy: We will open the chat with comments from Pam, and then take your questions and comments. If you have a question or comment at any time during the chat, please type a ? or ! and then wait to be called on by PHDaisy. Please don't talk in the room during this special chat. Thank you very much for being here with us tonight, Pam - would you like to begin? PamDennison: I thought I would start with a section of my handouts: PamDennison: except...I can't get to cut and paste - give me a second to try again :o( PHChristy: Pam, if you can't get it, you can email it to me and I will paste it in for you PHChristy: <---copy and paste queen PamDennison: ok, it won't let me cut and paste so give me a minute to type it in PamDennison: ok, I just sent it to you Christy. Sorry gang, this is all new to me pugahontas: that is ok!!! We are just glad you are here! PHChristy: One of the many things you will be learning over the next few weeks will be how to think with a more positive mindset. It is absolutely impossible to teach a dog 'don't.' PHChristy: Don't pull on leash, don't jump on strangers, don't chase the deer, don't, don't, don't. However, it is incredibly easy to teach a dog 'do.' PHChristy: Do walk calmly by my side, do sit politely for petting, do come instantly when I call. This may seem like a subtle and negligible difference ' do versus don't, and you are right, it is subtle, but oh so important. PHChristy: If you are always focused on what you don't want your dog to do, you may lose sight of the real picture what you want the dog to do instead. Once you have your 'do's' in place, you'll be able to fix any problem that comes down the pike. PHChristy: go ahead, Pam PamDennison: I have been doing some observations and... PamDennison: I have noticed PamDennison: that even us primates... PamDennison: don't hear the word don't... PamDennison: I ask students to "turn the doorknob... PamDennison: ...and don't open the door PamDennison: and they open the door... PamDennison: I will say don't pull on the leash... PamDennison: and they pull on the leash.. PamDennison: I noticed that when I rephrase my instructions... PamDennison: to be a positive statement... PamDennison: keep the door closed... PamDennison: keep the leash loose... PamDennison: WE are better able to process the information... PamDennison: I think Freud even did a study on that phenomenon... PamDennison: about us not being able to process a negative statement... PamDennison: how many of you have asked kids to "don't run" and of course they run... PamDennison: g/a PHChristy: Folks, if you have a question or comment for Pam, please type a ? or ! and we'll add you to the queue. PHChristy: I think that lillyrally is first PHChristy: lilly, go ahead (GA) PamDennison: ok, while we are waiting, I'll ramble some more :o) PHChristy: LOL PHChristy: I guess Lilly isn't ready Wind: ? PamDennison: it is the same with our dogs - they don't hear the negative statements either lillyrally_nr: i have a puppy mill breed dog that scared of traing PHChristy: oh, here we go PamDennison: which is why I am a big proponent of "give it a verb" PamDennison: what exactly is he afraid of? lillyrally_nr: she wont take treats PamDennison: out of your hand or off the floor? PamDennison: how old is she? PamDennison: how long have you had her? lillyrally_nr: she afraid of the leash lillyrally_nr: 5 we think lillyrally_nr: since oct PamDennison: ok....of the leash as you put it on her or the leash while it is in your hand? lillyrally_nr: she was found on road elegy_nr: ? lillyrally_nr: off leash fine but shake on leash PamDennison: ok...can you let it drag? Perhaps let is drag even in the house? PamDennison: g/a lillyrally_nr: just puting it one she shakes staffordmom: ! Zola_nr: ? PamDennison: ok...will she eat a treat while you put it on? g/a lillyrally_nr: no lillyrally_nr: spits it out PamDennison: ok, how about keeping the leash on her all of the time? Have you tried that? g/a lillyrally_nr: she runs and hides PamDennison: ok, she obviously... PamDennison: has had some bad exeriences... PamDennison: with the leash and collar... PamDennison: have you tried putting a harness on her? Will she allow it? Clicker59: ? lillyrally_nr: when we got her she was house trained and she has no front teeth and pees when up pick her up PamDennison: ...I am thinking.... lillyrally_nr: yes on harness she just shakes PamDennison: ok...do you have a fenced in yard where you don't have to leash her right now? lillyrally_nr: lays flat on the floor lillyrally_nr: yes we do PamDennison: I think I'd like to have you work on getting her to accept handling first... PamDennison: ...maybe hug her gently and then feed a treat and release... lillyrally_nr: she gets sit with out leash PamDennison: ...and then repeat 8 million times... PamDennison: ...until she is comfortable with you touching... PamDennison: ...and hugging her and ... PamDennison: very slowly add in other types of touching and handling. PamDennison: up to you lillyrally_nr: i have but she get so scared if hold more the two minutes lillyrally_nr: and will pee on you PamDennison: 2 minutes is too much - make it much slower.. PHChristy: lilly, hang out, we're going to take some more questions and hopefully we can come back to your situation again PHChristy: Daisy, can we get the next person? PamDennison: ...and make sure you don't overface her - only do it for as much as she can handle it. lillyrally_nr: ok ill try lulu_nr: ? PHDaisy: Wind is up next PHChristy: Wind GA :) Wind: Using the positive approach, how do we correct a dog that is say, barking at something outside or puling on his lead? PamDennison: ok, so ask me something simple why don't you? PHChristy: LOL PamDennison: pulling on leash is easier to discuss right now AngelPuppy: ? PamDennison: have you read my Complete Idiot's Guide to Positive Dog Training?... Wind: no PamDennison: I have an entire chapter about LLW... PamDennison: the most important thing... PamDennison: ...about LLW is that you have the dog's attention... PamDennison: and that they care that you exist ... PamDennison: I usually start with "backups"... PHChristy: is LLW loose leash walking? PamDennison: meaning that you back up and the dog follows you and... PamDennison: you click and treat (hereafter c/t)... PamDennison: the dog for following you... PamDennison: you can change direction alot... PamDennison: and be sure to c/t the dog for shadowing your every move... PamDennison: Keep the leash loose yourself... PamDennison: ...and be sure to act interesting... PamDennison: feint right and left, make happy noises... PamDennison: ...and always reinforce the dog for following you. PamDennison: yes LLW is loose leash walking. pugahontas: ? PamDennison: I also perfer the dog to be on a harness, rather than a collar. That way... PamDennison: if the dog is pulling... PamDennison: there will be no neck, spinal or tracheal damage. PamDennison: any other comments about LLW? Wind: no ma'am pugahontas: with LLW, are you luring with a treat -- creating a hand target?? PamDennison: no, I don't use it as a lure... PHDaisy: Elegy is next- PamDennison: I keep my hands down by my sides... PamDennison: and use my actions to entice the dog to follow. lillyrally_nr: by all PHChristy: Elegy, you can ga with your question now PamDennison: g/a elegy_nr: my question is, i guess, about relationship-building. any tips on how to get a dog who is not particularly motivated by anything to care that i exist. at this point i can barely get her to play with me outside the house- she's only interested in doing her own thing. how do i get her to want to play my games? (she's a 3 y/o pit bull, i've had her about 2 years) PamDennison: ...I am thinking... PamDennison: does she like to sniff? What are the things she does like to do? elegy_nr: sniff, hunt, sniff, hunt :) she will work for freedom to go hunt. that's the best motivator i've found, but it's not a great option beyond our own backyard. elegy_nr: she used to work very well for a tug reward but that wore off 8 or 9 months ago and i've not been able to get it back or find something to replace it. PamDennison: ok, so use the opportunity to sniff as a reinforcer for looking at you (I wouldn't be all that keen on letting her hunt...). PamDennison: good question Christy! PHChristy: I just privately asked Pam by mistake, if you thought there could be any chance the dog was deaf PHChristy: I knew a dog just like that who turned out to be deaf PHChristy: a boxer elegy_nr: nope, definitely not deaf PHChristy: ok PHChristy: just a thought PamDennison: Does she like to chase you? elegy_nr: no PamDennison: hmmm...thinking... PamDennison: does she like food? Petting? any kind of play at all? elegy_nr: sometimes she likes to roughhouse, but, again, outside of the house, it comes and goes PamDennison: ok, so how about making your sessions... PamDennison: outside very short - just a minute or two before... PamDennison: she loses interest in you and then go back in the house... PamDennison: then a few minutes later, you can go back outside... PamDennison: and do it again... elegy_nr: ok. i will definitely try that. PamDennison: ...quick, successful, then put her away. cugger_nr: can someone answer a question for me regarding an unborn pup . probally dead and still inside ? PHStilts: oops pugahontas: oh oh Clicker59: Yikes PHStilts: Cugger CALL THE VET NOW!!! windspirit: got to vets cugger_nr: its been 36 hours elegy_nr: she's a very very smart dog- has all the behaviors to do really well in rally (even heel backwards!) but she's just not particularly interested in playing the game.. PamDennison: keep it simple for her, perhaps add in some silly pet tricks... PamDennison: sometimes, we get over excited and have a tendency to drill our dogs. PHSmDog: ? PamDennison: g/a PHStilts: ? PHDaisy: Que is as follows: Zola, clicker, lulu, angelpuppy, pugahontas, Smdog, Stilts elegy_nr: thanks pam! PHDaisy: Zola, go ahead Zola_nr: Separation anxiety extinction question. We have had this dog 3 weeks. He's a 2-year-old Ridgeback, a rescue. For the last week we have been crating him three times a day, disappearing from his view, for 15 to 20 min., or as long as the frozen Kong lasts. After the Kong is empty (or he can't reach inside) he begins to stress. We haven't budged from "however long the Kong lasts". Is this just a matter of repetitions over days and weeks and he will get past "when the Kong is done"? PamDennison: you know, I have no idea. S/A is one thing I don't deal with... Zola_nr: Okay, thanks! PamDennison: sorry....g/a PHDaisy: Clicker is next PHChristy: Clicker, are you ready with your question? Clicker59: I Am Workimg On My Dog 's sit she s at the Point she can do with out her treats so when I asm working with her am I use to make her sit & yes I use her Leash Clicker59: Christie I am slow PamDennison: please don't use the leash to force her into a sit... Clicker59: Wise I mean? PamDennison: it really isn't needed... PamDennison: just use a hand signal to lure her head up... Clicker59: She is a stubberan Basset & escape Artist PamDennison: and her butt will go down into a sit... PamDennison: I love Bassetts! VERY smart dogs! PamDennison: I honestly don't believe there is a "stubborn" breed... Clicker59: That is what I do & what if I have to chase her over the house? PamDennison: why do you need to chase her? Clicker59: She loves to run all over the house & ignores me PamDennison: does she like food? If she isn't liking training, then maybe we need to look at that issue first. Clicker59: She Does PamDennison: then if she likes food, why do you think she runs away? Clicker59: But there are also People saying not to use treats PamDennison: then ask them to work without a paycheck PHChristy: LOL Clicker59: I am doing that LOL PamDennison: one can certainly train with using punishment and the dog will "obey" to stop the punishment, but it really isn't necessary and will do much to destroy a relationship. PamDennison: I also find that dogs trained using punishment shut down and crash and burn, while a dog trained using positives will just keep trying harder to get it right. Clicker59: OK then How come other People don't believe no Treats? I am confused is all Clicker59: They tell me not to use treats PamDennison: yoiu know, I don't know why some people are dead set against using food. Perhaps... PamDennison: because they are afraid... Clicker59: I Am getting Mixed Messages is all PamDennison: ...of the dog only working for food... Clicker59: Maybe so PamDennison: or perhaps they feel the dog should do stuff for us "because." Clicker59: Maybe PamDennison: Many of my students come to me confused and once they start to see the results... PamDennison: they stop listening to the nay-sayers... PamDennison: and learn to trust their gut and learn to trust their dog. Clicker59: I have see results before Clicker59: I will go back to her Kibbles & Bits LOL PamDennison: Super! then keep using food and start to use other types of reinforcers - petting praise, play, toys (and use better treats - icky! PHChristy: OK, Lulu is next, go ahead Lulu lulu_nr: I think people don't like to use treats because they can't think of another species as a 'partner' with different thought processes - they want to control something. It is species-ism.... Anyway....Another (slightly) extinction-related q. I would like to know what options if any are available when you need a behavior (barking in this example) to stop immediately, even if temporarily. Can it be done. Ex: apartment dwelling dog barks when he sees cats in apartment. Neighbors will demand that dog goes if dog doesn't stop barking. While working on the extinction of the behavior, c/t for not barking and for doing other non-barking activities, and/or putting the barking on cue so off-cue it discontinues, what do you do while the dog is still learning? Neighbors aren't going to under stand the concept of extinction. Meanwhile, when we're not around to c/t, the behavior continues, although slightly diminished. Sometimes a quick fix is necessary (for other humans). What to do? Clicker59: & something else I notice she some times Lose intrest in her treats PamDennison: lulu - ok, there are a few things you can do... PamDennison: allow the dog to bark once or twice... PamDennison: and then c/t... PamDennison: then go back to the window and allow the dog to bark once or twice... PamDennison: then call the dog to you and c/t...repeat a bunch of times.. PamDennison: after awhile the dog usually stops doing a non-stop barking thing... PamDennison: and will eventually just be quiet... PamDennison: I do this with dogs that bark at stuff going by the windows and it really does work... PamDennison: you can also cover the windows so the dog doesn't see stuff going by when you aren;t home... lulu_nr: But am I not rewarding barking, per se? Or are you saying that putting 2 barks on cue is a step on the road to extinction PamDennison: ...or you can go to the window, look out and say to your dog, "honey, it;s just Uncle Fred" and then walk away. Works nearly every time PamDennison: yes, 2 barks is better than 20 minutes of barking lulu_nr: And, yikes, if the cats are in the apt (which they are). pugahontas: SUPER advice about the barking problems!!...do you use any negatives at all ?? I know it is hard to train us humans not to use NO or other words in a negative way...I know that some dogs will melt if you "look" at them the wrong way :-) I try to use positive methods all the time but every now and then you can get frustrated and slip out a NO & feel horrible...how do you train yourSELF not to do this occasionally ? pugahontas: oops!!!! sorry!!! did not mean to send!! PamDennison: don'[t be sorry - it was a super Q. lulu_nr: That's okay, because yes, we get frustrated with the barking. I only have to hope that "intent" means something to a dog. PHChristy: Pam if you want to answer it you can.... we can stay late if you want to PamDennison: I NEVER use punishment on my dogs. I use verbs Instead o "no" I use "excuse me." bmoaneek: Hello PHChristy: but I do try to be polite, LOL lulu_nr: I mean, that "intent" in general was good on human's part, that that dog hopefully somehow understands that we make mistakes occasionally? PamDennison: yes I think it is ok to make a mistake every now and then - as long as we don't do it too often... PamDennison: it takes a loing time to learn patience with our dogs and not take what they do as too personal. PamDennison: g/a PHChristy: Pam, can we take one more question or shall we wrap it up? PamDennison: keep going - this is fun PHChristy: Daisy, go ahead with the next person :) PHDaisy: angel is up- PHDaisy: angelpuppy that is AngelPuppy: I have nowhere to be so, thanks AngelPuppy: I have 2 q's and something I want your opinion on if that's not too much PamDennison: g/a PHChristy: go ahead, AngelPuppy AngelPuppy: ok, the first q is what would be considered as pulling, because my dog is usually really good w/llw, but will put tension on the leash sometimes PamDennison: then just call him/her back to you before the leash gets tight PamDennison: you can always change direction alot which will keep your dog focused more on you. AngelPuppy: Iok, I'll try that PamDennison: what is your 2nd Q? AngelPuppy: and the second q is, he'll growl at people that come near our house, car, or even us sometimes, but also seems like he's being defensive AngelPuppy: I'm not really sure what I can do to stop this PamDennison: ok, he is most likely afraid - what have your reactions to his growling been? PamDennison: You can work at a farhter distance - so that he doesn't react and feed the heck out of him and keep him busy doing all sorts of different behaviors... PamDennison: that way alot of his fear will dissipate... AngelPuppy: I tell him to hush and I bend down to him, at the same time reassuring the people he's growling at that he won't bite or lunge at them or anything PamDennison: and you can gradually get closer and closer. AngelPuppy: it's only when the people are right in front of him and it's not everybody PamDennison: ok, so stop "reassuring" him - you are actually inadvertantly reinforcing him by petting. AngelPuppy: he doesn' AngelPuppy: I'm not petting him, just talking to him PamDennison: so don't talk to him. get him focused on you, (BEFORE he starts to get nervous... AngelPuppy: opps for the thing above, I accidentally pressed the enter key PamDennison: ...and keep him busy doing fun stuff with you. Make your distance bigger... AngelPuppy: he doesn't do anything until the people are there, and I don't know who he'll growl at and who he won't PamDennison: maybe have some people help you to set up desensitization sessions... AngelPuppy: I've tried that, but found something wrong w/it PamDennison: so just assume he will growl at everyone. PamDennison: wrong with what? AngelPuppy: the people who are willing to help me w/this are about half the people he won't growl at ever AngelPuppy: the rest of the people I know aren't as willing to help PamDennison: you know, that's ok to start with people he won't growl at. PamDennison: it gives him good practice at remaining calm. Perhaps... PamDennison: if you kep the people farther away that he does growl at they would be more willing to help... AngelPuppy: well those people are all strangers AngelPuppy: (the people he growls at) PamDennison: maybe you can go to a park and work at a far distance from strangers, again, keeping her busy doing stuff with you AngelPuppy: he used to do it only w/men, but I've seen him start to do it w/some women too. not all though PamDennison: how old is she? AngelPuppy: 15 months PamDennison: it could be that she is going through another fear period. PamDennison: dogs go thru many of them starting at 8 weeks up until 2 years old. AngelPuppy: how do I get him through it? PamDennison: the best thing to do during a fear period is to expose the dog to nothing new and wait for them to get out the fear period. AngelPuppy: which would usually take about how long... PamDennison: it usually takes about a week or two to get out of each fear period. AngelPuppy: it's been going on a bit longer than that PamDennison: the way a fear period is handled will affect a dog for life. PamDennison: how long has it been going on? AngelPuppy: I'm not exactly sure, but it's been at the very least half a month to a month PamDennison: ok, still within the range of a fear period. because she has been continually exposed to the scary stuff, it may take longer for her to come out of it. PamDennison: I would ease up on her a bit with the new people AngelPuppy: we haven't been seeing all that many new people recently PamDennison: My book, How to right a dog gone wrong, will help you through much of this. PamDennison: good, keep it simple for her right now. AngelPuppy: just a couple of play dates w/2 other dogs. there weren't a lot of people around during them either PamDennison: how did she handle it? AngelPuppy: the dogs belong to a friend, and there were only at the most at any one time, 2 people around AngelPuppy: other than us PamDennison: was she calm? PamDennison: just a few more comment, ok? I am getting tired! AngelPuppy: he was great, they played w/his tennis ball and frisbee, had treats and just plain romped around PamDennison: then just keep doing that kind of stuff for now. AngelPuppy: he was...happy PamDennison: the more she practices calm behaviors the better. AngelPuppy: that's about when he started to growl at people though... AngelPuppy: both started at around the same time PamDennison: you can eventualy add in 1 new person (outside the fence) while she plays with the other dogs. Instruct the new person to not react if your dog does (hence being outside the fence) PamDennison: ok, I can see that this question will take hours to go through... AngelPuppy: we've had strangers walk around on the sidewalks and he did great AngelPuppy: it wasn't planned AngelPuppy: he went up to sniff them and went right back to playing PamDennison: that's super! Go back to the steps he was successful at. PamDennison: AngelPuppy, I hate to cut you off, but I think it's time to go now... PamDennison: g/a pugahontas: PAM -- THANKS so much!!!!!!!!! PHChristy: I'm afraid that's all we have time for - I'd like to thank Pam Dennison for being our guest, and extend an invitation for her to come back ... this was terrific! Thank you, and thanks to all of you for coming tonight! PamDennison: thank you for inviting me! windspirit: Thank you Pam. harvbeck: Thank you Pam, i like your "positive" attitude..and good night... everyone. PHChristy: Pam, you were just super, thank you so much! PHChristy: and thank you for going so far overtime to help our chatters! PHChristy: you're the best! PHStilts: Thanks for comming Pam PHChristy: I will email you a link to the transcript tomorrow so you have it :) PHChristy: thanks to Daisy and Stilts for doing a great job hosting! PHChristy: goodnight everyone!! |
