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PHChristy: All of us at DogHobbyist.com thank you very much for being with us tonight for a special chat on "Holistic Approaches to Managing IBD in Dogs." This subject is very close to my heart, because I own a dog with IBD, Skye, a Scottish Deerhound.

PHChristy: Tonight our guest will open with a few comments, and then take your questions. If you have a question, please wait until we open the chat to questions, and type ? into the room. If you have a comment, type !

LadyC_nr: hey Prin, everyone :)

PHChristy: PHMowgli will add your name to the queue, and will call on you in the order received. Please don't chat in the room or play sounds during the guest chat, or ask questions in the room unless you've been called on.

PHChristy: After you are called on, when you are done typing your question, please type "GA" or "go ahead" so we know you are done. It is helpful if you have your question ready to send when you're called on, to keep things moving more quickly.

PHChristy: Before we begin, I'd like to just stress that neither our guest tonight, nor any of the hosts including me, are veterinarians. My co-host, PHValkyrie, is a registered veterinary technician. This chat is not intended as veterinary advice nor to replace your relationship with your pet's veterinarian.

PHChristy: As most of you probably know, Inflammatory Bowel Disease, IBD, is an autoimmune disorder of the digestive tract. In IBD, an immune response results in inflammation of the lining of the GI tract, which causes the bowel to thicken.

PHChristy: Hello harv, we're just starting our special guest chat on Holistic Approaches to IBD in Dogs

Lew_nr: I think the term IBD (irritable bowel disease) often gets misdiagnosed. It either is used incorrectly for a dog with gastric distress, or is misdiagnosed and then not treated correctly.

PHChristy: The thickened bowel loses its ability to contract and absorb food normally, resulting in vomiting if the inflammation is in the upper small intestine or stomach, watery diarrhea and weight loss if it's in the lower small intestine, and mucous diarrhea that can contain blood if it's in the large intestine - or any or all of them at the same time, or over time.

PHChristy: Tonight we're joined by Lew Olson, LMSW-ACP PhD, of Blackwood Rottweilers. Lew is the owner of the K-9 Nutrition list at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/K9Nutrition/, as well as of B-Natural's Natural Products & Consultations For Your Pet, at http://www.b-naturals.com/. She is also the owner of a dog with IBD, Bud. Lew, welcome to DogHobbyist.com and thank you for being our guest tonight!

PHChristy: Lew will open with some comments, and then she'll let us know when she's ready to open the chat to questions! Lew, when you're done with your answers, would you be sure to type "GA" or "go ahead" so we know you're done?

PHChristy: ga

Lew_nr: As Christie mentioned, it is about an inflammation of the digestion tract. Symptoms can range from chronic diarrhea, or vomiting or both. A diagnosis can only be made with an endoscope, which is done by a specialist. Generally they look through the dog's digestive tract for signs of inflammation, thickening or scar tissue. GA

PHChristy: Lew, can you share some of the things you've done to manage IBD in your dog?

PHChristy: ga

Lew_nr: I had a dog diagnosed with this disorder eight years ago. Bud had had projectile diarrhea, a profound urgency to go (at the worst times...), weight loss and poor skin and coat. He went from 115 lbs to 80 lbs.

Lew_nr: By the time I got to a specialist, Bud (a Rottweiler) was in pretty bad shape. His endoscope confirmed IBD and the vet recommended steroids, flagyl and more antibiotics. I declined that.

Lew_nr: Instead, I hit the internet, make several emails and called various veterinary colleges. I found some very interesting information.

PHFlea: !

PHFlea: ?

Lew_nr: The first information I gleaned was that dogs have a shorter and more simple digestive tract than we do. While a high fiber diet will make firmer stools (because it absorbs the moisture from the large intestine) it continues to irritate the digestive tract and keep the inflammation and problem chronic.

Lew_nr: Dogs are able to digest fats and animal proteins the easiest. So I took Bud off of commercial dog food, and went to a home prepared meal. In the beginning, I used vegetable as fiber rather than grains (Bud had a big problem with grains, they seemed to go right through him)

PHChristy: Skye cannot tolerate any grains either

PHChristy: I think that's pretty common in IBD dogs

PHValkyrie: ?

PHChristy: Queue, PHFlea and PHValkyrie - you'll be called on soon! If anyone has a question or comment, please type ? or ! to the room and I will add you to the queue!

Lew_nr: Then I search for research on things that would help heal the digestive tract. The most effective one seemed to be l-glutamine. (an amino acid). Good research had been done with this amino acid in human infants, and in dogs at one of the veterinary colleges and had good success. I started Bud on that, as well as beneficial bacteria (probiotics) and digestive enzymes (especially pancreatin, ox bile and pancrealipase)

mayrose: ?

Lew_nr: I went to several small, frequent meals rather than one or two larger ones day. And I also took a leap of faith-- and started Bud on raw meaty bones for half of his meals, and muscle meat and pulped vegetables for the other meal. I also learned to judge Bud's health by how he looked, not by his stools..... very important.

Lew_nr: GA

kelexacockers_nr: Hi all

PHMowgli: Flea Ga

PHFlea: What kinds of meats do you use with your dog? Do you avoid fatty types such as lamb etc......was wondering if they cause inflammation?

PHFlea: ga

Lew_nr: I don't think a particular meat causes inflammation, but in the early stages of recovery, high fat diets (and meats) such as lamb and pork can cause distress for dogs with IBD. I did reduce Bud's fat intake in the beginning. However, I also put him on high doses of omega 3 fatty acids (which help regulate the immune system). These didn't seem to bother him. ga

PHMowgli: Val GA

PHFlea: TY ....ga

PHValkyrie: Is the intolerance to grains due to them not digesting well? Does the lack of digestion cause the irritation? GA

Pootie Tang_nr: ?

Lew_nr: I think it is due to the bulk that grains add to the digestive tract of the dog. The dog has a short and simple digestive tract that is not built to ferment foods. It causes spasms in the digestive tract which increases inflammation and shoots the food through not giving it a chance to digest well.

Lew_nr: ga

PHValkyrie: I see thank you. :-)

PHMowgli: May Rose Go ahead with your question

mayrose: What do you think of using aloe vera capsules or fennel? I've had hounds with periods of irritable bowel but not chronic.

mayrose: GA

PHChristy: !

PHValkyrie: ?

Lew_nr: I would probably use *some* aloe vera, but be aware that too much aloe vera is also a laxative. It does have healing capabilities, but start at the low end of the dose. ga

PHMowgli: Christy your comment?

PHChristy: I can wait my turn, thanks though Mow

PHMowgli: PottieTang go ahead with your question

Pootie Tang_nr: I don't know a lot about IBD - can you tell me what causes IBD? Is there a genetic factor?

Pootie Tang_nr: ga

Lew_nr: Like Chrisite said, it is probably autoimmune. I think dogs with this tendency can pass it along genetically, to some degree. I have found most dogs that are prone to it are dogs that are a bit more anxious, worried or hyper. They seem to be 'on' more than other dogs, if that makes sense. I have worked with a few folks where their dogs started this after a routine surgery. Their is speculation that anesthesia and stress might bring this condition on. Maybe too after vaccination... perhaps an allergic reaction to the adjuvent?

Lew_nr: Christie, I apologise for the bad spelling of your name....

Pootie Tang_nr: ok, thanks. ga

PHChristy: LOL, that's ok Lew

PHMowgli: Ok Christy your turn

PHChristy: My comment went back to Mayrose asking about using aloe and, I think, fennel, for occasional irritable bowel

PHChristy: irritable bowel is different from IBD, and is believed to be caused by stress

PHChristy: but I have found that the her peppermint is very beneficial for irritable bowel

PHChristy: it eases intestinal spasms, regulates peristalsis, and also helps with nausea

mayrose: !

PHChristy: while it's not a sedating herb, it can be refreshing, and might help the dogs feel a little better, so might ease stress a bit

LadyC_nr: ?

PHChristy: it also goes well with fennel

PHChristy: I meant to say the HERB peppermint

PHChristy: I give it in any way the dog will take it, including letting them drink cooled peppermint tea, or in capsues, or alcohol free drops from the health food store

Lew_nr: and use the enteric coated peppermint, if possible. That way it can be useful in the lower intestine.

PHChristy: However, one more thing....

PHChristy: rarely has it shown any benefit to my IBD dog, Skye

PHChristy: it does help him feel a bit better, but it doesn't really have any serious impact on his condition

PHChristy: ga

PHMowgli: Val your question

PHValkyrie: Would you mind, briefly, explaining the difference between IBD & IBS? I suspect there may be some confusion between the disease vs. syndrome. GA

jdt_nr: Lew, Can an IBS dog end up as an IBD dog if stress and diet not controlled?

PHChristy: actually, Val, since you're a vet tech, do you want to explain it, LOL? ga

PHChristy: jdt, hang on until Mowgli calls on you :)

PHValkyrie: LOL, I'm actually asking because when the vet writes it

PHValkyrie: in a file

PHValkyrie: he tends to say IBD/IBS

PHChristy: ah

PHChristy: I'm not sure what Lew's take on this is, but to me.... IBS, or irritable bowel syndrome, is diarrhea from stress. The dog may have it all the time, or frequently, or rarely.

PHChristy: While IBD, or Inflammatory Bowel Disease, is an autoimmune disease, or at least, a disease of chronic inflammation of the intestine. The inflammatory cells are called to the gut lining

J_nr: !

PHChristy: in the way they are with an allergy or a disease

PHChristy: without an endoscopy, as Lew said in the beginning, you may not know which your dog has

PHValkyrie: Syndrome *to me* means to emulate the symptoms of a disease, without being the disease.

PHChristy: as IBD dogs often get stress diarrhea as well

PHChristy: Lew, did you want to add to that? Or disagree? ga

PHMowgli: que is mary rose lady c JDT and J_

Lew_nr: IBD usually has weight loss, there may be blood in the stool, skin and coat problems. IBS has cramping, pain, but no blood in the stool (I can't believe I am being so vulgar in a public fourm..bg) but doesn't cause anemia, weight loss and the more serious problems. IBS is more prone to come and go as well.

PHChristy: Mowgli is having computer problems so I will call on folks now, Mayrose, please go ahead with your comment

mayrose: I wondered about the fennel

PHChristy: fennel is an herb used more for nausea and inappetance and gas than intestinal cramping and diarrhea, but many people and dogs like the taste.

PHChristy: Lew, have you used it?

Lew_nr: Sometimes dogs with IBD get goopy eyes and joint pain, oddly enough.Also hot spots, allergies etc. This doesn't happen with IBS.

PHChristy: ga

Lew_nr: Yes, fennel is great for IBS but not so with IBD.

PHChristy: now LICORICE has been used for IBD....

PHChristy: which tastes slightly like fennel

PHChristy: but licorice (the herb) actually as anti-inflammatory and even immune suppressive properties

PHChristy: some herbalists think it's as harmful as steroids

PHChristy: over longterm use

mayrose: iwondered about the safety of fennel in dogs

PHChristy: I've never tried it, but I see it recommended on the lists for IBD from time to time

PHChristy: I believe that fennel is quite, quite safe

Lew_nr: I have read not to use it longterm, yes. Always check any herbal supplements you use and don't use them day in and out if they contain licorice. It can suppress the adrenals.

PHChristy: avoid fennel in pregnant and nursing animals

mayrose: Thanks

PHChristy: LadyC, please go ahead with your question

cam_nr: ty PH Christy

LadyC_nr: herb peppermint given in what dose? how much per dog's weight? and, know a dog who likes licorice, but it's not a safe treat? GA

merhadj_nr: test

PHChristy: LadyC, did you want to ask Lew or me?

LadyC_nr: either or both GA

merhadj_nr: is this IBD Holistic Chat?

Lew_nr: I forget the exact dosing, but generally I give human dose to giant breeds, 3/4 dose to large dogs, half dose to medium dogs and 1/4 dose to small dogs.

dawgvet24_nr: ?

LadyC_nr: ty Lew!

PHFlea: If you have a question type in a ? and they will add you to a queue

LadyC_nr: and licorice?

PHChristy: it also depends on the form

PHChristy: but peppermint is one of the safest herbs, and especially if you are using the tea, it's very hard to overdose it

merhadj_nr: no question-but might be able to help on NOT WHAT TO Do

PHChristy: I just put down a cooled bowl of peppermint tea and let my dogs drink as they wish

PHValkyrie: ?

LadyC_nr: ty Christy! great idea :) GA

PHChristy: the licorice question is it can be dangerous but generally only with prolonged use, still, I would not give it as a treat, no

PHChristy: why take the risk?

PHChristy: OK, I believe JDT was next but has logged out, so now J is next, J please go ahead

LadyC_nr: understood, thanks GA

harvbeck_nr: ?

J_nr: Interesting about the IBS having to do with vaccinations,stress and coming and going. I don't do vaccinations anymore, especially rabies because whenever my dogs have gotten it, they get diahreah and vomit at the same time for days after.

LadyC_nr: !

J_nr: I just started feeding RAW so maybe this will help. I can avoid rabies untill I have to take them to the vet for something else..ugh. So is there anything else I should be doing that will help prevent this from happening? Also afraid of it happening with the diet change. Is this even considered ibs? ga

J_nr: sorry long question =0

Lew_nr: No, small bout of diarrhea and vomiting due to diet changes are not IBS or IBD.

merhadj_nr: oh-no idea what im doing-cant get on

PHMowgli: Dawgvet go ahead with your question

Lew_nr: To prevent gastric distress during times of diet change or stress, give your dog acidolphilus or probiotics, and digestive enzymes that contain animal enzymes, such as pancreatin and pancrelipase. The beneficial bacteria will help keep the good flora and fauna in the digestive tract (helps stop gas and spasms) and the enzymes help break down proteins, fats and carbs for better assimilation.

dawgvet24_nr: I had been using the B naturals digestive blend but a holistic vet told me that the flavoring might be irritating my dog's stomach. What do you think?

Lew_nr: Dogs with IBD and sometimes IBS get inflammation of the digestive tract, which causes a loss of abillity to assimilate the nutrients.

Lew_nr: Flavoring? The digestion blend contains powdered liver, is that what he means?

dawgvet24_nr: Yes, the beef flavor because my dog can't have beef.

Lew_nr: If you dog is not reacting well to the Digestion Blend, use a lower dose and be sure to give "with" meals, not away from them. ga

Lew_nr: Your dog is allergic to beef??

dawgvet24_nr: I was just afraid the flavoring was causing inflammation. The vet also advised me to give unflavored heartworm preventative if I choose to give that.

dawgvet24_nr: My dog can only have "novel" proteins-she's doing well on duck right now.

PHMowgli: ?

LadyC_nr: ?

PHMowgli: are we ready for the next question?

Lew_nr: But a novel protein becomes non novel after awhile. The idea is to help your dogs immune system regulate itself, so that it won't recognize normal foods as 'invaders'.

dawgvet24_nr: How do we do that?

Lew_nr: Are you feeding raw or commercial food?

dawgvet24_nr: I am planning on switching to raw very soon. I'm on vacation right now and as soon as I come home I will be ordering the raw meat.

lyn_nr: I'm switching my dog from a hypoallergenic food to Wellness canned fish and sweet potato. Do you think I should give digestive enzymes to help her transition?

PHMowgli: lyn this is a protocol chat if you would liek to ask a question post a ? and we will add your name to que

Lew_nr: So your dog isn't getting just duck, but other food items in the commercial food. My confusion lays here... is your dog having food allergies (which are very rare) or IBD or IBS?

dawgvet24_nr: She was diagnosed with IBD by endoscopy and biopsy. She had chronic vomiting until I switched her to the duck and potato food.

Lew_nr: To lyn.. I think probiotics or acidolphilus would be more helpful. Digestive enzymes might help too, but the beneficial bacteria seems more indicated.

PHChristy: We are going to run over a bit into Small Dog Chat to take the last couple of questions :)

Lew_nr: OK... but that is probably more about the starch and carbs used in the duck diet. Some things more readily absorb the excess moisture, such as sweet potato, white potatoes, rice. But this type of food doesn't cure the problem, it only masks the symptoms.

PHChristy: if that's ok with Lew :)

Lew_nr: Yes, that is fine.

PHChristy: I agree with Lew about masking the symptoms....

dawgvet24_nr: Do you think she would do fine with the Digestive Blend if she was on a raw diet?

PHChristy: you can buy your dog a lot of relief in the beginning with novel protein diets, but ultimately you want more than that

PHMowgli: que is harvbeck, ladyC, mowgli

dawgvet24_nr: And (sorry for the many questions) do you think I should not be giving her any carbs at all?

harvbeck_nr: Is IBD curable or just treatable.? Can IBS lead to IBD.? Lew, how long has your Rottie (and You) been dealing with this.?

Lew_nr: Bud remained symptom free for almost eight years. No one was more shocked than me... The specialist told me I was writing Bud's death warrant.

Lew_nr: I have seen success with the digestion blend with kibble diets. What are you judging on success and non success?

harvbeck_nr: thats great , you still treat for IBD.? is it curable.?

dawgvet24_nr: Success means no vomiting and more energy. Right now she seems like she feels bad all the time and she vomits approximately 3-4 times per week.

merhadj_nr: ok-sorry-am i in the room?never did chat-sorru

Lew_nr: Then if she is still having these symptoms, I would try the raw diet. And I would feed very low (if any amounts) of carbohydrates, and feed frequent small meals during the day. I would give her l-glutamine (at 500 mg per 20 lbs of body weight daily) and ginger (to help stop the vomiting). One thing that might hel p stop the vomiting is to boil cabbage for 20 minutes, let cool and save the liquid. Give your dog one CC per ten pounds of body weight as needed.

dawgvet24_nr: Thank you Lew!

PHMowgli: harvbeck did you get your answer also?

harvbeck_nr: no

PHChristy: I think harvbeck wanted to know if IBD is curable, or just treatable

PHMowgli: go ahead with your question

PHValkyrie: !

harvbeck_nr: is IBD curable or treatable can IBS lead to IBD

Lew_nr: I wish I could answer that. I think any dog (or person) can be made to be better, and some can be cured. IBD and IBS are different. IBD is autoimmune related and IBS can be caused by stress, other disease or illness (or bad diet...)

LadyC_nr: Christy, is red licorice as dangerous as black? I know a dog who enjoys it as a treat. and, Lew, what about allergies to chicken (dog demonstrated allergy to chicken when fed exclusively raw chicken), how does one encourage dog's immune system to accept it? GA

PHMowgli: Lady C go ahead

LadyC_nr: oops, sorry

Lew_nr: I think some gastric distress is caused by commercial diets, as they are high in fiber, grains and starches. Some dogs simply don't do well on a processed, dry diet and improve rapidly with a home made diet.

PHChristy: I am talking about licorice, the herb, not the "whips" or "sticks"

PHMowgli: that's Ok lady C

LadyC_nr: thanks, ga

LadyC_nr: okay, Christy, thanks

lyn_nr: If a dog's only sypmtom is a loud gurgling tummy without vomiting or diarrhea is there anything specific you recommend to help with that?

princesspugmac: !

Lew_nr: Allergies to food are rare, but they can occur. Frankly, if I had a dog that couldn't tolerate chicken, I just wouldn't feed it anymore. I would try turkey necks, pork neck bones and breast, things of that nature.

PHChristy: licorice the herb is used in flavoring black licorice candies, but not the red whips. If in doubt, read the ingredients. However, there are lots of things like high fructose corn syrup and transfats that are in a lot of foods like that

LadyC_nr: thank you Lew :) appreciate it, ga

PHMowgli: please be patient and not type into room as of yet

Lew_nr: Lyn... yes. Feed more frequent, small meals. Especially one first thing in the morning and last thing at night. Also try digestive enzymes, often they help with this.

LadyC_nr: thanks, Lew, ga

PHMowgli: Ok I bellive we are up to the last question on que

PHMowgli: and that is me

lyn_nr: Thank you

PHChristy: I think that Val had a comment

PHMowgli: Lew when looking for a novel protein source do you have any that you recommend over others?

merhadj_nr: salmon

PHMowgli: Oh sorry Val go ahead

Lew_nr: Yep, salmon. I learned that from Christy today!

PHValkyrie: Lew, I don't know if you remember when one of the vets I work for called you about a little beagle that was wasting away...but she is doing BEAUTIFULLY...thanks to you. Infact, she finally has been well enough, long enough to get her horrible teeth cleaned. :-)

PHMowgli: hmm well what if salmon is not novel for my dog?

PHChristy: emu, ostrich, venison, buffalo, goat, rabbit... anything the dog has never had

princesspugmac: kangaroo

Lew_nr: Rabbit would be good, and some have had success with buffalo. I would suggest wild game first, rather than factory farmed.

PHMowgli: oh thanks christy emu and ostrich I did nto think of

PHChristy: some dogs react to things that are SIMILAR to other things they've had, such as my Raven who couldn't handle duck even though she never had it before, because she was so allergic to chicken and turkey

PHMowgli: I did think of kangaroo though

PHChristy: kangaroo is another one

Lew_nr: WOW! Thanks for letting more about that Beagle, I had always wondered!

princesspugmac: mowgli I've fed it ground it freaked me out...lol

PHChristy: very intersting study done on cats with IBD, feeding raw rabbit - I will include a link to that in the transcript when I post it

PHChristy: Which brings me to.....

PHValkyrie: You're welcome. :-) THANK YOU.

PHMowgli: how long should we leave a dog on a new protein source to see if it helps?

PHChristy: sorry, Mowgli, I'll wait for what it brings me to

LadyC_nr: thanks, Christy and Lew :)

PHMowgli: my last question LOL

Lew_nr: Thanks for asking me, this was a real treat!

princesspugmac: it was a treat for us too Lew

PHChristy: Lew... Mowgli asked how long to leave a dog on a novel protein to see it if helps?

LadyC_nr: Mowgli - sorry

PHMowgli: Ok christy go ahead with your conclusion

Lew_nr: From what I have read on novel proteins... at least six weeks. I don't know if personally I would have the patience...

PHChristy: That is all we have time for tonight. I want to thank Lew Olson on behalf of DogHobbyist.com for being here tonight! A transcript of this chat will be available soon, and I'll post the link on our site at http://www.doghobbyist.com/features.html sometime tomorrow.

PHChristy: I will also post it to K9Nutrition and the reminder list

princesspugmac: Lew thanks again for visiting us :}

PHChristy: Thank you all for being with us as well! Our holistic dog care chat is every Thursday night at 9 PM Eastern time, and if you'd like to get a free email chat reminder, you can sign up for it here:

princesspugmac: nite all

LadyC_nr: thanks, Christy, this was a great learning experience, Lew :)

PHChristy: http://www.doghobbyist.com/articles/DogChats.html

PHChristy: Our Small Dog Chat is about to begin, so we invite all of you with small dogs to stick around! Goodnight all, and we hope to see you next week!

PHMowgli: Welcome to Small dog Chat tonights chat is going to be open as I know evryone is anxious to chatter away!!!!!

LadyC_nr: nite all

Cackle: zigmop?

PHChristy: Lew, thank you so much....

PHChristy: It was great

Lew_nr: Thanks, and good night!

PHMowgli: Thank you Lew!!!!!!!

PHChristy: goodnight!

PHMowgli: Please feel free to stay and chat even if you have large dogs

PHMowgli: we do not discriminate due to size even though our name implies we do LOL