Other Resources Holistic Dog Care Chat Thursdays 9-10 PM Eastern Time Subscribe to a free email chat reminder for Holistic Dog Care Chat! Email Address: DogHobbyist.com Dog Forums/Boards Dog Chats Dog Photo Gallery Dog Bookstore Subscribe to DogHobbyist News, the free email newsletter of DogHobbyist.com! Email Address:

PHChristy: Good evening everyone and thanks for coming! Our topic tonight is "Titers: What do they tell us?"

PHChristy: I'll be making some opening comments on this subject. If you have a comment or question, simply type a ? or ! into the room, and wait until you are called on.

PHChristy: Please don't chat in the room once I get started. If we have time at the end we can go back to open chat. :)

PHChristy: Before I start, let me make it clear that I am NOT a veterinarian or a medical professional.

PHChristy: I am a dog breeder, a former medical journalist, and someone who has been involved with holistic care and raising of dogs for over 18 years.

PHChristy: I am not here to give medical advice or tell you if or how to use titer tests to make vaccine decisions. I'm simply here to share my thoughts, research, and experience on titers.

PHChristy: Only you and your dog's veterinarian can decide how best to protect your dog from disease.

PHChristy: OK, let's begin.

PHChristy: First, let me explain what a "titer" is.

PHChristy: A "titer" can be used to measure how much of a substance is present in a liquid, but in this case, we are talking about how much of an antibody is present in the bloodstream at a particular time.

PHChristy: A "titer" measures how many times the sample could be diluted before there was no more antibody found.

PHChristy: A 1:2 titer means that the solution could be diluted only twice before no antibody was found.

PHChristy: A 1:1200 titer means that the solution could be diluted 1200 times before no antibody was found.

PHChristy: The higher the second number, the more antibody was present.

PHChristy: Many people who want to minimize vaccines hope to be able to use "titers" to see if their dog needs a "booster shot."

PHChristy: Many people will tell them that these tests are not reliable, and encourage them to re-vaccinate instead.

PHChristy: What is the truth? Do titer tests tell us anything?

PHChristy: The truth is, in nearly all cases, the only thing titer tests might "miss" is not a dog who IS NOT immune, not a dog who IS immune.

PHChristy: In other words, if your dog has a protective titer to a virus, you can feel pretty confident that they are, in fact, protected against that virus.

PHChristy: (Bacterial immunity is different, as is immunity to some types of virus we don't currently vaccinate against in dogs, so I'm not discussing those here tonight.)

PHChristy: Where titer tests are unreliable is that a dog might show a low titer but actually be immune. This is because titer tests don't measure immunity directly. Immunity is a function of cells known as "memory cells," but we cannot measure this.

PHChristy: How memory cells work:

marcus5495: ?

PHChristy: When immune system cells known as "T cells" are exposed to antigens such as viruses, they divide into two groups of cells. One group, antibodies, attacks the invading substance, while the other group becomes memory cells.

PHCurious: Marcus, ask your question

marcus5495: Okay, so we are talking about antibodies to viruses only. Right?

PHChristy: That's right

PHChristy: and also, only to the viruses that dogs are vaccinated against. There are some feline viruses, and human viruses, that we vaccinate for that dont' work this way

PHChristy: Back to memory cells... :)

PHChristy: Dr. Donald Hamilton, a holistic veterinarian and author of "Homeopathic Care for Cats and Dogs: Small Doses for Small Animals," compares antibodies to fire engines.

PHChristy: Just because the fire engines aren't racing all over town all the time, and the fire fighters are back in the firehouse, sleeping, eating or playing cards, doesn't mean they aren't ready to jump in their trucks and head to the fire when the alarm sounds.

PHChristy: This is why a zero or low titer does not NECESSARILY mean your dog is not immune to a disease.

PHChristy: Furthermore, research is showing that memory cells do not actually need reminders to keep working years down the road:

PHChristy: "According to Dr. Rafi Ahmed, of the Emory Vaccine Center at Emory University in Atlanta, Georgia, it has always been thought that the memory cells needed reminders.

PHChristy: "For a vaccine to offer the most protection against disease, it was believed that it had to refresh the memory of these cells by exposing them to an antigen repeatedly, he explained.

PHChristy: "But the current research 'seriously questions that hypothesis,' Ahmed said."

PHChristy: The article goes on to explain that two experiments done on mice involving transplanted cells showed "that immune system cells do not have to be reminded to recognize an antigen," and

PHChristy: "(I)nstead of focusing on developing immunizations that repeatedly expose the immune system to an antigen, it may be more effective to work on vaccines that produce a strong initial response, since memory cells seem to be able to do their job without being reminded ...."

PHChristy: (Citation: Science 1999;286:1377-1381, 1381-1383.)

PHChristy: Are there any questions at this point? :)

Lesya: kind of

PHCurious: Go ahead Lesya

Scottie3_nr: I'd like to raise a question I've asked before--does even minimal titer in dicate immunity?

herdndog_nr: !

Lesya: So with the studies of Dr. Ahmed, would you suggest that only the initial vaccine would be enough to program the WBC in the immune system to protect against the virus?

PHChristy: hang on Scottie.... first is Lesya, then herdndog, and then you

PHChristy: Lesya, I'll be getting to that in a few minutes. Great question!

Lesya: bt you should use Titers to be absolutely sure?

Lesya: Also (sorry)

Lesya: I am active in obedience, agility, and Schutzhund

PHChristy: I think that NOTHING is "absolutely sure," neither vaccination nor titers

Lesya: the club that I do agility abd obedience with require shot records every time you sign up

Lesya: how do you suggest going about that?

PHCurious: Herd, you will be next

PHChristy: but there is more research telling us that titers to viruses correlate with protection against disease, than tell us that repeating a vaccine does

PHChristy: Lesya, my suggestion is to educate the clubs and businesses

PHChristy: they are not vets

PHChristy: they are not medical professionals

PHChristy: there is good information out there about duration of immunity to viruses, as well as the possible harm of vaccines

Lesya: right. but they're probably erring on the side of caution to protect all dogs and participants. I'll let the others ask their questions

PHChristy: and remember, an UNNEEDED vaccines is all risk with no benefit, even if the risk is small

PHChristy: I don't agree they are erring on the side of caution

Lesya: why is that?

PHChristy: they are potentially harming your dog for something that has no scientific basis

PHChristy: because if your dog doesn't need that "booster shot," it's all risk, no benefit

Lesya: but simply following the "old" beliefs on vaccinations

PHChristy: yes, they are

Lesya: what are the risks?

PHChristy: that's very true

PHChristy: Lesya, that's off the subject of titers, so I'll defer that question to another night!

Lesya: haha, sorry. no problem

PHChristy: but be aware that every veterinary vaccine has a package insert with the known risks and side effects listed right on it

PHChristy: OK, next is herdndog, right Curious?

herdndog_nr: re: working towards vaccines that would produce a stronger initial response.... please explain why that's different than now.

PHCurious: Yes!

PHChristy: herdndog, that is actually human research I was quoting. In dogs we are already doing that, in creating things such as the Proguard parvo vaccine that contains much larger amounts of virus

PHChristy: they also sometimes include irritants known as "adjuvants" in vaccines (mostly killed virus vaccines) in the hope of stimulating a stronger immune response

PHChristy: these things increase the immune response and also increase the risk, especially of potential allergic reactions

PHChristy: herdndog, did that answer your question?

herdndog_nr: then if you are using the vaccines currently and getting sufficient titers... then why risk a higher virus load?

PHChristy: herdndog, I would certainly agree with that

herdndog_nr: k

PHChristy: Scottie, please go ahead with your question now

PHCurious: !

Scottie3_nr: I wonder: Can even a minimal titer indicate immunity?

PHChristy: actually... herdndog, let me just quickly add that in the case of parvo, they are doing it to try to overcome maternal antibody interference in puppies

PHChristy: Scottie, yes it can

Lesya: ?

PHChristy: it doesn't always, because some titer tests are not that accurate at lower measurements

herdndog_nr: !

PHChristy: but most immunologists will agree that if there ARE antibodies to a normal virus, it generally means you have memory cells

PHChristy: and it is my understanding that parvo and distemper in dogs are very accurate in titer tests

PHChristy: Scottie, did that cover it for you?

Scottie3_nr: Would you, if you had a low titer and did not want to vaccinate, or boooster, have another titer run at a later time?

Debbie_nr: Hi everyone...I had SO MUCH trouble logging in here...is there anyway to get a transcript of what has been said so far?

PHChristy: Debbie, yes, I will send the transcirpt to the reminder list, the BeyondVaccination list, Wellpet, and K9 Nutrition lists

Debbie_nr: TYVM

PHChristy: and it will be posted on the "Features" page at www.doghobbyist.com

PHChristy: welcome!

PHChristy: Scottie, I don't think a titer later on is that helpful, as generally the titer will gradually decline over time

Debbie_nr: ?

PHChristy: however, there is no reason NOT to do a second titer just in case of lab error

MariasMom: ?

PHChristy: Curious, go ahead with your comment

Scottie3_nr: Are you talking about years? I meant, would a second titer perhaps a few weeks after a low titer result, be advisable before making any vaccination decision?

PHCurious: Christy, I've tried to have titers conducted on one human (me) and my cats. They were cost prohitive.

PHChristy: Scottie, the titer normally will go down, not up, over a long period of time. A second test in a short period of time would be more to deal with lab error

PHCurious: For example, the titer for feline distemper was about $400, while the vaccine is $20

PHChristy: My cats get feline distemper titer for $35

PHChristy: you are being ripped off

PHCurious: What's the process like for dog illness titers

PHChristy: there is simply no reason on earth to pay anything remotely like that for a titer test

PHCurious: ACK!! They told me $100 each for the FVR, C, P, and extra C

Scottie3_nr: !

PHChristy: that is INSANE

Valkyrie: !

PHChristy: I live in the San Francisco Bay Area, some of the highest vet bills in the nation

PHCurious: Oh goodness. OK. That makes a huge difference

PHCurious: Lesya, you may ask your question now

Lesya: ok

PHChristy: Because Valkyrie is a vet tech, I'm going to let her make her comment out of order

PHChristy: Val, please ga

Valkyrie: I was just appalled by the cost and

Valkyrie: there's no reason that any vet should be charging

Valkyrie: that sort of price. I would want to know what lab he's using

Valkyrie: as well as his stand on vaccines

PHCurious: Thanks Val. I will discuss this with my vet, who told me that's what the lab charges her :(

Valkyrie: It is known that vets who think titers are bogus

Valkyrie: to overcharge their clients.

PHChristy: I want to also add that while cost DOES matter, it doesn't matter SCIENTIFICALLY

Valkyrie: To convince them to have the vaccine instead.

Valkyrie: I know for a fact that the price you were quoted...if using antech is FAR FAR FAR above hospital cost.

PHCurious: Well I had a similar thing trying to get myself titered. (I work in hospitals and have to show proof of vax)

PHChristy: an unneeded vaccine is still unneeded, regardless of how much the test costs

PHChristy: and vice versa

PHCurious: Gotcha

PHChristy: OK, sorry, let's get back to Lesya's question. Lesya, please ga

Lesya: its ok

Valkyrie: done.

Lesya: I remember in one of my textbooks there was a diagram about dormant viruses and a live virus and it is injected in a mouse. certain reactions, even with the dormant/dead virus caused the subject to be infected with the virus and die. does this ring a bell with anything you've read? Would this apply to the vaccines with our dogs?

PHCurious: Thanks Valkyrie!

PHChristy: Lesya, it's called reversion to virulence, and while rare, it does happen.

PHChristy: RARELY

Lesya: I couldn't remember exactly what it was called

PHCurious: Herd, your turn!

herdndog_nr: whatlevel constitutes "lower measurements on titer test " being inaccurate?

Lesya: with revaccination, not only might it be unneccessary, but it will also put your dog in more risk of this to happen, correct?

PHChristy: herdndog, the specific number will vary depending on the lab used and the virus in question

PHChristy: Lesya, yes

Lesya: k

PHChristy: although let me stress it's VERY RARE

Lesya: yes, I understand

PHChristy: most laboratories will indicate the levels they consider protective when they return the results to your vet

herdndog_nr: k

PHChristy: I discuss this more later

PHCurious: Mothergoose, your question?

Natalie_nr: I have two dogs, One has had one rabies vac, the other has never been vaccinated. Their titers indicated a higher level of immunity for the non vaccinated dog,can you explain?

PHCurious: Natalie, we're doing a structured chat tonight.

Mothergoose: Are titers for rabies, and parvovirus, distemper helpful.....or applicable even if you vaccinate? Or can you go only by titers to determine to vaccinate? Also, can you titer for heartworm?

PHCurious: I will put you in queue after Scottie

Natalie_nr: oh...sorry

PHChristy: Mothergoose.... I believe that titers for those three viruses are very reliable and helpful if you are wanting to know if vaccination was successful. I'll discuss this a bit more in a minute.

PHChristy: You can look for antibodies to heartworm in the blood, that is what a heartworm test is, but since there is no vaccine for heartworm, it's not really the same as the vaccine issue

PHChristy: also, immunity to things like heartworm is very short lived

PHChristy: nothing at all like viral immuity

Debbie_2_nr: I apologize for sending this question now out of queue...I keep getting bumped off, and I would like to see it in the transcript if I get bumped off again...I am Debbie and Debbie_2. My regular holistic vet, Dr. Susan Wynn, was not in today, and one of our Alaskan Klee Kais was suffereing with vomiting and diarrhea. As a result, she had to see another vet at the clinic (not holistic, of course). I was given the third degree about rabies and how it was illegal not to give the shot. I asked about the titers and could they run the test to see if she even needed the rabies (which I soooooooo don't want to give). I was told that the three-year shot is only good after they've had the initial puppy one (which is only good for a year -- I actually think they're good for nothing). They are running the titers test, but I noticed their language was for her level on "this specific day." My question is how can I legally NOT give the shot? Will a titers letter hold up at a vet clinic?

PHChristy: Debbie, there is no state in the US that recognizes titers for rabies in lieu of vaccination at this time.

PHChristy: for dogs

PHChristy: the CDC reports that no dog or cat who has had two rabies vaccines has ever gotten rabies

PHChristy: beyond that, you'll have to discuss this with Susan

PHChristy: MOthergoose, did that cover it for you?

Scottie3_nr: !

Mothergoose: Yes...but is there an immunity program for Heartworm that is holistic...no ivermectin, etc.

PHChristy: Mothergoose, I understand, but that's not related to titers

PHChristy: titers measure SPECIFIC immunity, which is the process of antibodies and memory cells. Those approaches boost GENERAL immunity, hoping that the immune system will handle the heartworm if it occurs

Mothergoose: Okay...thanks.

PHCurious: Debbie, has your question been answered?

Debbie_2_nr: Curious...yes, thanks!

PHChristy: I'd like to move on, so if we can just hold the rest of the questions fo ra few more minutes....

PHCurious: Great

PHChristy: Curious, please keep the queue until I'm done with the last section

PHCurious: OK, next will be Scottie, then Natalie.

PHCurious: If anyone else would like to be added, please type ! or ?

PHChristy: OK, I'm going to go on....

PHChristy: Many people argue that there is no "proof" that titers are related to immunity, but that's not true.

PHChristy: Besides their very common use in human medicine, research has also been done in veterinary medicine.

PHChristy: One such study was done by Michael R. Lappin DVM PhD DACVIM, a leading veterinary virology researcher. In a 2002 study, Dr. Lappin found that the feline panluekopenia (similar to canine parvovirus) and feline calicivirus antibody correlation with protection when challenged with the diseases were .... drumroll .... 100 percent.

Debbie_2_nr: ?

PHChristy: THIS WAS TRUE EVEN IN CATS WHO HAD ANTIBODY LEVELS LOWER THAN THOSE CONSIDERED "PROTECTIVE."

PHChristy: (Citation: Lappin MR, Andrews J, Simpson D, et al. "Use of serologic tests to predict resistance to feline herpesvirus 1, feline calcivirus, and feline parvovirus infection in cats." Journal of the American Veterinary Medical Assocation 2002.)

PHChristy: What this means in your decision making process is that if you use titers to tell you when to vaccinate, you will be far more likely to end up needlessly vaccinating some animals that don't need it, not missing animals who DO need it.

PHChristy: This is the opposite conclusion than what most people who object to titers for being "inaccurate" seem to have reached!

PHChristy: One last thought. While it's true that titers aren't well understood or tested, neither are animal vaccines.

Mothergoose: ?

PHChristy: Length of duration studies and long term safety studies are virtually never done and are not required to approve an animal vaccine.

PHChristy: I find it very troubling that so many people criticize titer tests for their supposed "unreliability," while acting as if the act of giving a "booster shot" has been proven to increase immunity - which in the case of the canine viruses parvo and distemper has in fact been proven NOT to be true.

PHChristy: You cannot make an immune dog "more immune," and the antibodies from the vaccines given to the dog in the past will simply wipe out the virus in the new vaccine, and no "booster" effect takes place. You'll thus have all the risk, and no benefit.

PHChristy: (Citation: Schultz, R.D., "Current and Future Canine and Feline Vaccination Programs." Vet Med 3: No. 3, 233-254, 1998.)

PHChristy: Hopefully things are changing, as more and more pet owners are asking for titer tests and questioning the science behind vaccine protocols.

PHChristy: I'll now open this up to any remaining comments or questions. Thanks, everyone!

PHChristy: and I think that means it's Scottie's turn, LOL

PHCurious: Scottie, you're up!

PHCurious: Now that I know how much they REALLY cost, I'll be asking for titers!

PHChristy: :D

Scottie3_nr: I understand that there is new "in office" titering equipment that cuts the cost dramatically.

Lesya: ?

PHChristy: Scottie, yes, that's true. I'm not sure how effective it is compared to sending it out to the lab, as it's fairly new. I'll be watching this with great interest.

PHChristy: But it's an example of the kind of things we'll see as more owners ask for titer tests

PHChristy: prices will come down

PHCurious: Natalie, you have a question or comment?

PHChristy: and more kinds of tests will be widely available

Natalie_nr: I have two dogs. One vaccinated for rabies one time,

Natalie_nr: the other never vaccinated. I had them titered. The non vaccinated dog had a higher level of immunity than the vaccinated dog, Can you explain?

PHCurious: Prices better come down at my vet's office...

PHChristy: Natalie, this is for rabies, right?

Natalie_nr: yes

PHChristy: Natalie, that does happen from time to time and it always baffles people, because rabies is a killed virus vaccine

PHChristy: killed virus supposedly does not replicate, and therefore there shouldn't be any "shedding" of the vaccine virus

PHChristy: in the case of other vaccines, the modified live virus replicates in the dog's body and is shed in the stool, and other dogs in the house or the park or whatever can get exposed to it and develop a titer that way

PHChristy: but with rabies it really is very much inexplicable

PHChristy: either the virus IS shedding

PHChristy: or the other dogs are somehow getting exposed to the virus and not getting sick, which I find EXTREMELY hard to believe

PHCurious: ? I'm putting myself in queue :)

PHChristy: but you are not the only person I've known who has experienced this

Natalie_nr: Thanks...I was curious as to how it could occur

PHChristy: me too!

PHChristy: I'm sure in the coming years we'll find the answer

PHCurious: Curiosity is good

PHChristy: LOL Curious

PHChristy: ok, who's next? :)

PHCurious: Debbie, you're up!

Debbie_2_nr: Another question: My other AKK developed fear aggression after his first puppy rabies shot. I was told by the vet assistant today that the rabies shot would have had nothing to do with that. I disagreed. What are your thoughts? Can I get a letter stating that he cannot have another rabies shot due to fear aggression?

PHChristy: The second question will depend on your vet. Many vets would give you an exemption letter based on this, and many wouldn't.

Scottie3_nr: 1

Debbie_2_nr: gotta find the right vet, eh?!

Debbie_2_nr: thanks

Scottie3_nr: !

PHChristy: The first question, my thoughts are that any virus that grows in the cells of the nervous system could obviously have the potential to cause behavior problems

PHChristy: and I have heard FAR too many reports of this to dismiss it

PHChristy: there are other possible explanations, but I don't believe the rabies vaccine can be ruled out as a cause based on what we know today

PHChristy: ga

PHCurious: Mothergoose, your turn

Debbie_2_nr: I guess that's because you are brilliant AND open-minded...what a combination! Thanks so much!

PHChristy: LOL Debbie, wow, thank you so much!!!

PHChristy: you've certainly made MY night!

Laurie_nr: ?

Debbie_2_nr: :-)

Mothergoose: When is the dog too old to vaccinate?

PHChristy: Mothergoose, I can't answer that question. To me, the issue is always one of risks vs benefits.

PHChristy: There is no set age at which you can say, the risk will always outweigh the benefits

PHChristy: but I can tell you, EVERY dog is "too old" for an unneccessary vaccine

PHChristy: or too young, or too sick, etc

PHChristy: you have to look at the RISK of the disease and the RISK of the vaccine, and make an informed decision. And also do your best to determine if the vaccine is needed, ie, is the dog already immune from previous vaccines or illness

PHCurious: Lesya, give her a tough one!

Lesya: what about the set of vaccines a puppy gets? would you say that the repeated vaccination within the short span of time is harmful or necessary for initiating (can't spit the right word out) immunity?

PHChristy: Lesya, puppies don't need a series of vaccines to become immune. What they need is ONE VACCINE THAT WORKS.

Lesya: so just one initial vaccine

Lesya: then titers after that

PHChristy: You can give a vaccine and then two weeks later do a titer test, and know if the vaccine worked. In other words, if immunity formed.

PHChristy: No, just ONE THAT WORKS

PHChristy: a titer test will tell you if it worked

Lesya: ok

PHChristy: once you have that post-vaccine titer response, there is no scientific reason to repeat the vaccination

PHCurious: Lesya, did that answer your question?

PHChristy: if you give a vaccine and do NOT have a post-vaccine titer response, that puppy is not immunized even if they are vaccinated

Lesya: so there are vaccines that are duds?

PHChristy: Lesya, yes, but usually it's maternal antibody interference, not a problem with the vaccine itself

Lesya: ok.

PHChristy: especially with parvo

Lesya: ill have to check my vet for titers

MariasMom: !

PHChristy: and parvo maternal antibody can persist until the puppy is nearly 6 months old

PHChristy: go ahead with the next question or comment

PHCurious: You're up Scottie

Scottie3_nr: Re: "Natural immujnity" to rabies--wasn't the rabies vaccine originally MLV? Could such a virus remain viable in, say, soil, for a long period?

PHChristy: I think MariasMom will have to be last as we are almost out of time

PHCurious: OK

PHChristy: Scottie, yes, and some MLV has been given to wildlife. But I don't believe it's stable in soil AT ALL, it requires an animal vector

PHChristy: next?

PHCurious: Laurie, you're up

Laurie_nr: my bitch has an autoimmune disease. does that compromise a titer?

PHChristy: Laurie, what it does is contraindicate vaccination! Vaccines are licensed for use in healthy, clinically normal animals only. Furthermore, autoimmune disease is one of the known side effects of vaccines in dogs.

PHChristy: But as far as I know, no, it doesn't compromise the accuracy of a titer test.

Laurie_nr: thanks

PHChristy: ga

PHCurious: OK, last question of the evening is from Mariasmom

MariasMom: once you have that post-vaccine titer showing it "worked" there is no reason to continue titering year after year in "lieu" of vaccination, right?

PHChristy: MariasMom, in my opinion, none, except curiousity

PHCurious: WHAT??

PHChristy: but other people prefer to do more tests, it is sort of a crutch

PHChristy: Curious, you cannot "boost" immunity

PHCurious: My vet told me every year x$500 per cat...

PHChristy: you can't make an animal more immune to a virus

PHCurious: Oh, I've got phone calls to make

MariasMom: I hear so many say they are going to titer every year instead of vaccinating

PHChristy: Curious.... you need a new vet

PHChristy: Hi Lin!!! Chat is just ending!

Valkyrie: !

PHChristy: Folks, Small Dog Chat will be starting in just a moment

PHChristy: Val, please ga

LINANATOR: I figured I was too late, but I tried. :)

Natalie_nr: goodnight thank you Christie

Valkyrie: Unfortunately, there are boarding facilities that fancy themselves veterinary medicine savvy. They may be the reason some people have to titer every year.

Debbie_2_nr: tyvm Christy for your time and knowledge-sharing

PHCurious: Thank you Christie! Helping with this chat just saved me thousands of dollars :)

PHChristy: What I would personally dio, and this is just my personal opinion.... is titer after intitial vaccination to make sure it "worked," and then I'd be done.

Scottie3_nr: TYVM

PHChristy: Speaking about VIRUSES

PHCurious: Val, oh this is true. One once told me titer tests were only good if taken within 2 weeks of boarding

Lesya: and the antibodies stay active for the rest of the dog's life?

PHChristy: There is a real lack of understanding of how the immune system works out there!

PHChristy: Lesya, not the antibodies, the memory cells

PHChristy: as I said earlier

Lesya: ...same thing! lol....

PHChristy: although for many dogs and cats, also the antibodies remain

Lesya: im joking

PHChristy: LOL

Valkyrie: That's crazy.

Lesya: how soon after vaccination shouuld one titer?

Valkyrie: And yet so many will accept a bordatella vaccine the same day.

PHChristy: Two weeks after

Lesya: k

PHChristy: it takes up to two weeks for immunity to form after a vaccine is given

PHChristy: Val, that's true! which is just nuts

PHCurious: OK dog folks, I need to run. I'm a cat host, but it was fun being here with you all tonight. And good for my checking account too. :)

PHCurious: Thank you Christie and pups

Lesya: bye curious

PHChristy: Goodnight Curious, thank you so much!

Valkyrie: Boarding kennels and petstore owners that practice veterinary medicine are one of my pet peeves. LOL

Lesya: nice to meet you!

Valkyrie: G'night

PHCurious: Goodnight everyone!

PHChristy: Hi there DunMadra!

DunMadra: Hey Christy

Lesya: thanks christy for gracing us wth your oh so knowledgable presence

Lesya: ;-)

PHChristy: We are just wrapping up our special chat on Titers

PHChristy: LOL Lesya, thank YOU!

PHChristy: Thanks to everyone for coming tonight!

Lesya: I've been leaning awy from the DVM

DunMadra: christy ohhh sorry I missed the titer chat

Lesya: and this is very interesting

Lesya: might get into the Biology & Virology

PHChristy: Lesya, a fascinating field!

Lesya: but I'm not s ure if I couuld handle the lab setting

PHChristy: Dun, I will post the link to the transcript

PHChristy: it was a great chat

Lesya: nor testing on animals

DunMadra: thanks

Valkyrie: Yes it was. A very good chat.

Lesya: and I don't think being an animal behaviorist makes enough $$ to support the critters or myself

Lesya: very informative

Lesya: I could feel my brain swelling with info :E

PHChristy: LOL

Lesya: this is the stuff that gets my heart pumping

Lesya: calculus... pfffsha

PHChristy: harv, I'll post the link to the transcript to the reminder list, on the "Features" page at www.doghobbyist.com, and to the K9 Nutrition, BeyondVaccination, and Wellpet lists

Valkyrie: I've been reading Diodati's book. Informative.

PHChristy: Val, I just got it

PHChristy: I've been meaning to read it since it came out

Lesya: what's the book on?

PHChristy: it's on cat and dog vaccination

Valkyrie: Vaccinations

Lesya: I'm a book nerd

Lesya: title / author that I could find it under?

PHChristy: I actually don't think that anyone is here for small dog chat!

PHChristy: author is Catherine Diodati

Valkyrie: Diodati

DunMadra: ohhh christy...the can of worms is open now

PHChristy: not sure of the exact title

PHChristy: LOL DunMadra

Valkyrie: What every pet owner should know about vaccinations I believe.

PHChristy: OK, Ginger is here and I have to run because... guess why, LOL

DunMadra: Howdy Ginger

PHChristy: and I also need to eat and feed my dogs

PHGinger: Hello everyone

Lesya: yup

Valkyrie: See ya later.

Lesya: ive gotta walk my girl

Valkyrie: Hi Ginger

PHChristy: I'll see you all next week, THANK YOU for a great chat!