Schedules & Transcripts PetHobbyist.com Main Chat Week Schedule Reptile & Amphibian Chats Dog Chats Cat Chats Bird Chats Fish & Aquarium Chats Small Mammal/Exotic Pet Chats Subscribe to our free email newsletters about pets and animal issues Email Address:

PHChristy: Hello everyone, and welcome to our Seventh Annual Chat Week!

PHChristy: Tonight's chat is a co-effort by RescueNetwork.org and DogHobbyist.com

PHChristy: I'd like to thank PHKeeper, the site coordinator of RescueNetwork.org, and PHFasDog, site coordinator of DogHobbyist.com, for having us here tonight to discuss this important issue

PHChristy: Our topic tonight is one that is very close to the hearts of all of us who love dogs: stopping the production of puppies in puppy mills

PHChristy: as well as the irresponsible selling of puppies through pet store sales

PHChristy: Our two guests are active in educating people about these issues and we're very glad to have them here tonight.

PHChristy: Pamela J. Schott, DVM, graduated from the New York State College of Veterinary Medicine at Cornell in 1987, and has been in small animal practice since. She is actively involved in educating veterinary professionals and the public on the realities behind the commercial dog breeding industry and pet store puppy sales. Dr. Schott is also involved in rescue, and five rescued dogs are a part of her family.

PHChristy: Libby Williams is president of New Jersey Consumers Against Pet Shop Abuse (NJCAPSA), an all-volunteer non-profit 501(c)(3) consumer and companion animal advocacy group that assists consumers in understanding their rights when they acquire from pet shops (or other entities) companion animals who have health or behavioral problems. NJCAPSA also protects companion animals offered for sale by ensuring they receive at least the minimum level of humane care required by state law.

LibbyWilliams: Thank you for having me!

PamSchottDVM: Hello everyone

PHChristy: Many of us in the dog world have seen puppies from puppy mills who are unhealthy, unsocialized, not typical of their breed, or who are lovely dogs but not the right breed for the family with whom they were placed

PHChristy: a good friend of mine, Karen Thayne, who is involved in Italian Greyhound rescue

PHChristy: wrote an article called "Pet Shop Mama" that is one of the saddest things I've ever read

PHChristy: I will link to it at the end of this chat so you can read it

PHChristy: Tammy Corwyn, who is our own PHMorgan, also wrote an article called "But I Love My Pet Shop Puppy" that I will also link to

PHChristy: in it she says... of course you love your pet store puppy! if he's a wonderful pet, who cares where he came from?

PHChristy: and she answers... his mother cares

PHChristy: so I want to dedicate this chat to all the pet shop mamas who are spending their lives in kennels or cages, producing puppies until they can't anymore.

PHChristy: I'd like to just ask Dr. Schott, and then Libby, to tell us a little bit about what got them involved with this issue. Dr. Schott?

PHChristy: ga

PamSchottDVM: One of the angles the pet stores play, especially as the pups get older, is that the buyer feels like they are "rescuing " the pup- they are really emptying a cage for the next pup

PamSchottDVM: Well, like most vets I see many new puppies from pet stores

PamSchottDVM: especially in my suburban area

PamSchottDVM: it takes travel and an effort to find a REB

PamSchottDVM: people take the "fast food option"

PamSchottDVM: So over the years I jsut got more and more fed up with it

PamSchottDVM: then I have a few situations where pet store owners/managers were telling me I was trying to chjeat them

PamSchottDVM: by sending puppies for expensive treatments that by law in my state they would have to payt for

PamSchottDVM: the last straw was a "boutique" type store opening in my home town

PamSchottDVM: that wa ssel;ling the same commercially bred, brokered pups for OUTRAGEOUS prices

PamSchottDVM: a nd doing a brisk business

PamSchottDVM: ga

LibbyWilliams: I've had a 20 year interest in puppy mills and I started reading about problem petstores. I went so far to contacting consumers about thier problems with pet stores. And, once I got their paperwork I saw a pattern of consumer fraud.

LibbyWilliams: Then I started documenting the diseases of the animals, the breeders, brokers and how much money people were paying to treat their sick animals.

LibbyWilliams: I realized that although we have the strongest puppy lemon law

LibbyWilliams: in the country. Consumers were not aware they had rights under the law.

LibbyWilliams: ga

PHChristy: Pam and Libby, you are both in New Jersey, correct?

LibbyWilliams: Yes I am

PamSchottDVM: Correct

PHChristy: I was wondering if what balance of education and legislation is best to resolve these issues...

PHChristy: I sometimes think we'd need no laws at all if people just KNEW

PHChristy: what is a good balance, do you think? ga

PamSchottDVM: Yes and no, you're still going to get t hose people who don't care enough to forgo the cute puppy

LibbyWilliams: We just need to inform the general public about the pitfalls, about purchasing a puppy in a pet store.

LibbyWilliams: And where they come from....(inferior product)

PamSchottDVM: An idea I had was to require a waiting period before taking the puppy home

jungledeep_nr: ?

PHChristy: Libby, do you feel that the pitfalls is a productive angle? I worry that by focusing on how they have suffered in puppy mills, we end up making big corporations who run sterile corporate puppy mills almost be able to use that as a marketing angle!

PamSchottDVM: Libby you think that enough people would listen - and the stores would gradually go out of business?

LibbyWilliams: Poor breeding, inbreeding.....we just don't want people buying from pet stores period..next to a puppy mill. ga

AuntieL_nr: How can a person recognize if an establishment is actually a puppymill?

PamSchottDVM: I think we have to remove acess to the puppies

PHChristy: Auntie... hang on, we'll take questions in one moment.

PamSchottDVM: Puppies should not be sold to people who haven't gone through a screening process

PHChristy: you mean other than "yes, your Visa card works"?

PHChristy: sorry, my cynical side just erupted

PamSchottDVM: like rescue or a good shelter or a REB does - ga

LibbyWilliams: It all boils down to supply and demand. The more you buy

PamSchottDVM: tht's what I meant - and now they all give payment plans too

LibbyWilliams: from pet stores you are keeping puppy mills in buisness.

LibbyWilliams: And they give out bogus extended health warranties.

LibbyWilliams: ga

PamSchottDVM: so we get people to stop buying by making it harder to buy and making people aware of the type of practices they are supporting by buying there and the dangers of heartbreak

PamSchottDVM: when their puppy has problems

PHChristy: Auntie, you can go ahead with your question now... and if anyone else has questions, please type a ? into the room and wait for Mowgli to call on you. If you have a comment, you can type ! instead.

PamSchottDVM: another angle I'm persuing is documenting how many pet store pups get dumped in shelters and rescues

AuntieL_nr: How can an individual recognize if an establishment is actually a puppymill?

MissDaphne: ?

PamSchottDVM: There is no commonly accepted definition of puppymill

LibbyWilliams: When it sells multiple breeds

LibbyWilliams: ga

PHKeeper: ?

PamSchottDVM: so it is hard

LoriLeigh: ?

PamSchottDVM: Reputable breeders never consign puppies to third parties for sale- they want to know where the pup is going

LibbyWilliams: When they don't let you see the parents also.

LibbyWilliams: ga

PHChristy: I think there is one way of knowing if a breeder is good or not. I call it my acid test.

PHChristy: Will they guarantee, in writing, to take the dog back at any time during his or her life, for any reason, forever.

PamSchottDVM: ga Christy -I want to hear

PHChristy: if not.... run.

PamSchottDVM: That's a good one

PHChristy: there are many other things that would tell you

LibbyWilliams: Christy yes that is true!!

PHChristy: but that's the kicker

PHChristy: good breeders aren't just WILLING... they insist on it

PHChristy: bad breeders have a thousand excuses

PHChristy: so if I had to pick one thing, that would be it

PamSchottDVM: Personally, I don;'t think that dog breeding, if done conscientiously, will ever consistently make a profit

LibbyWilliams: Absolutely, and we heard them all

PHChristy: no, breeding dogs right is a very expensive avocation, and will never make you money

PamSchottDVM: so a person relying on income from breeding is a puppy mill

PHChristy: anyone selling through a third party is not a responsible breeder

PHChristy: no good breeder would send their babies out into the world with no idea where they'd end up

PHChristy: and no qualifications for being placed in a home other than that the check clears

PamSchottDVM: most breed parent clubs prohibit consignment

PHChristy: absolutely

PHChristy: that is a big surprise to a lot of people to find out that most clubs, especially the toy breeds, have a code of ethics PROHIBITING placing puppies through pet stores

PamSchottDVM: ANother thing that they use id the "new registries" to trick people - that's another thing to clue you in

PHChristy: YES!

PHChristy: I'm glad you brought that up

LibbyWilliams: Yes there are alot of bogus registries

LibbyWilliams: ACA, CKC

PHChristy: since AKC started some very minor IMO tightening of its requirements for "volume breeders"...

LibbyWilliams: APR

PamSchottDVM: It's so ridiculous it would be funny if it wasn't so diabolical

PHChristy: a whole bunch of registries sprang up, only too happy to provide papers for pet store puppies

PHChristy: Pam, I agree!

LibbyWilliams: Registration papers only mean you registered a puppy it doesn't guarentee the health or quality of the puppy.

PHChristy: I just want to clarify... Libby, you mean Continental Kennel Club, not CANADIAN Kennel Club, right?

LibbyWilliams: Yes...Continental

PamSchottDVM: e(A convenient confusion...)

PHChristy: I don't think it's an accident they share the same acronym :(

PHChristy: GMTA Pam!

LibbyWilliams: Actually these registries pick up AKC suspended breeders

SamsSammy: ?

PamSchottDVM: There was a booth at a trade show about "How to start a registry"

PamSchottDVM: HA

PHChristy: oh lord

PHChristy: Mowgli, who is next?

PHMowgli: Keeper you are next GA

PHKeeper: Why do you think AKC or Breed clubs don't get more involved in shutting down pup mills by checking on more of them in person? ga

LibbyWilliams: We had true fraudulent registry here in NJ called Global Kennel Club

LibbyWilliams: and there certificate of registration had the word "official" misspelled.

PHChristy: LOL Libby

PHMowgli: que is after PHKeeper Miss daphne, lorileigh, and SamsSammy

PamSchottDVM: They have tried, that is one of the reason the proliferation of registries

LibbyWilliams: Because alot of the puppy mills use AKC as a registry.

PamSchottDVM: of course AKC is also just a registry not a regulatory agency

PamSchottDVM: They began requiring DNA testing for sires listed on more than a certain number of pedigrees

LibbyWilliams: The ACA has practically taken over PA especially with Amish.

PamSchottDVM: AKC did , that is - but many breeders didn't want to bother

PamSchottDVM: so they jump to other registries (that is one of the reasons they jump)

LibbyWilliams: Alot of the Amish have been suspended with the AKC

PamSchottDVM: What violatins do they suspend the Amish on Libby

PHChristy: it's rare I would feel sorry for AKC, but this is ending up a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" for them

PamSchottDVM: ga anyone

LibbyWilliams: They suspend any breeder on the condition of the kennel and falsifying records.

AuntieL_nr: Do you think that the so-called purebred puppies are becoming extinct due to cross-breeding in the mills?

PHMowgli: Miss Daphne is next

MissDaphne: I have cats, not dogs, and I'm seeing this more and more happening... kitten mills! Do you see a problem with that too, or is it mostly puppies that you see? ga

LibbyWilliams: Auntie, Absolutely

PamSchottDVM: I would like to answer Auntie's question - but Daphne first

PamSchottDVM: Daphne, there is certainly a kitten mill problem

LibbyWilliams: I have been in puppy mills and I have seen dogs identified as Maltese and Bichon that look like poodle mixes.

PamSchottDVM: I don't think purebred puppies will ever become extinct thanks to REB's and AKC

LibbyWilliams: Personally, I haven't seen too many...but I have been into two that were raided by

PamSchottDVM: what the current designer breed thing does is several things

LibbyWilliams: a local humane society because of horrific condition of the cats

MissDaphne: :(

LibbyWilliams: ga

PamSchottDVM: first, makes things confusing for rescues. Breed rescues are looking for PBs

PamSchottDVM: and they will take mixes but they need to have some limit on their activities or they get overwhelmed

LibbyWilliams: We are seeing more "trendy" breeds

PamSchottDVM: and who takes the peke a poo? or the Scottie that looks like a CAirn?

LibbyWilliams: Puggles, Bugs, Jugs and all the Doodle dogs

PamSchottDVM: They are spreading rumors that the AKC is planning to recognise some of these "breeds"

PHChristy: yes, like that big puppy mill rescue groups are trying to buy.. .specializing in what they call "hybrids"

Midask9: wow, word gets around....

LibbyWilliams: Has to be a rumor because they are true mixed breeds

PamSchottDVM: secondly, first generation crosses are not at all consistent in temperament, looks, or anything else.

PamSchottDVM: so you can't know what to expect as much as you might with a PB

LibbyWilliams: We are seeing rage syndrome goldens and cockers because of inbreeding.

PamSchottDVM: I don't know if you can say its because of inbreeding per se (small quibble)

PHMowgli: next in line is LoriLeigh!

LibbyWilliams: Then how would you explain rage syndrome??

LoriLeigh: Our pet stores seem to get most of their dogs from BYBs. They often even sell mixes for hundreds of dollars, especially the poo mixes. I believe that these BYBs are mills in their own way. They don’t have the numbers of dogs, but they breed and breed and breed the few they have, and are too small to even have to meet the minimum standards of the USDA. What can we do about these? (I once read a REB who suggested that no animals should be sold, but rather given to special people as cherished gifts. I will give one puppy from each of my litters as a gift)(our rescue requests contracts and papers from OTIs so that we can get those dogs back to the breeders that insist on it. Not all owners will follow their contracts) (I have seen the registry stuff at the Backer, PIJAC and Super Zoo shows. Love to challenge them!!!)

PamSchottDVM: it is more because of lack of follow-up. They have no idea (or interesT) in keeping good records so they can "breed out" these traits.

PamSchottDVM: You can explain it by inbreeding, careless breeding, whatever- its just a shame

PamSchottDVM: Lori what state are you in? Have you seen papers from these BYBs?

PHChristy: Lori, did you have a question or did you just want to include that comment?

LibbyWilliams: You have to have a USDA license to sell wholesale..I'm surprised these BYB's are allowed to sell to petstores.

PHMowgli: que is as follows after lori's samsSammy then PHMowgli

PamSchottDVM: thinking along the same lines Libby

PHChristy: Libby, I am surprised myself

PHChristy: some small pet stores probably have cozy arrangements with local BYBs, but I suspect that is usually just a cover story

LibbyWilliams: Local municipalities usually regulate or license breeders

PHChristy: as they don't like the "image" of out of state mill puppies

LibbyWilliams: back yard breeders I should say.

LoriLeigh: If that is true, I will get this gus pet store!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

PHChristy: it's a federal law, actually, isn't it?

PamSchottDVM: In NJ, the pet stores are required to post the p[lace of birth of the puppy on the cage card (along with some other info) but I have seen many leave this out

PHChristy: that puppies sold retail (in pet stores) have to come from USDA breeders?

PamSchottDVM: I believe so, Christy

PHChristy: I have heard that but never actually verified it... I truly don't know. Libby, do you know?

LibbyWilliams: Lori I would be willing to discuss some ways to help you with this shop. Please email PHChristy@pethobbyist.com to get in touch with me.

PHChristy: I'll check on that and include a link if I find anything when I post the transcript

PHMowgli: Sam GA

LibbyWilliams: If you wholesale you must be USDA licensed unless you are a hobby breeder. Which means

SamsSammy: Have you heard of the following? In our area we have a person that "rescued dogs from Amish country. Of course there are no papers, as the Amish, they say, don't register their dogs. You can get almost any kind of puppy. A newspaper article painted the sellers as heros! A "rescue" puppy mill! Pretty devious, huh?

LibbyWilliams: you have three or fewer breeding females.

LibbyWilliams: ga

PamSchottDVM: Yes Sammy I've seen that too. Also internet puppy sellers that sell "rescued" puppies= pups that fail regular brokers screenings - "adoption fee" hundreds, plus "shipping fee"

LibbyWilliams: I'm not aware of that. Sounds like a broker to me.

PamSchottDVM: I'm sure they buy these pups for very little monry

PamSchottDVM: money

LibbyWilliams: Some brokers will buy whole litters for 10.00 a dog

PamSchottDVM: It is brokering disguised as "rescue"

PamSchottDVM: there are even some that weasel onto petfinder

PHChristy: really??

PHChristy: good lord

LibbyWilliams: We report and get them kicked off immediately.

PHKeeper: OH no:(

PHChristy: and I thought I was cynical, but maybe I'm not so cynical as I thought

PamSchottDVM: anywhere there is money to be made... a cute puppy is the ultimate weapon

LibbyWilliams: There are definite repeat offenders......

PamSchottDVM: Oh man we have really just scratched the surface

PHChristy: Pam, we'll have to have you both back!

PHMowgli: What can we do as pet owners, rescue workers, breeders to help stop these puppymill's from continueing these practices? Is there anything?

PamSchottDVM: good

LibbyWilliams: We would love it!!

PHMowgli: oops sorry that was last question in que I just posted

LibbyWilliams: Number One.....Don't buy from pet stores

PHChristy: that's ok, Mowgli, it's a very good question to wrap up with!

SamsSammy: Boy It would be nice to have a 5 step approach to dealing with these shysters!

PHChristy: don't buy ANYTHING from stores that sell puppies... not even a COMB

PamSchottDVM: tELL EVERYONE DON'T BUY A PUPPY FROM A PET STORE

LibbyWilliams: And attend as many zoning meetings you can to stop them...especially in PA

PamSchottDVM: go beyond your circle of "animal friends" - they already know

PamSchottDVM: tell your church, tell your kids soccer team

LibbyWilliams: Buy only supply stores and support your breed rescue or cause

PHChristy: what about informational leafleting outside stores?

PHChristy: is that legally iffy?

PamSchottDVM: true confession time-

LibbyWilliams: Most store to store owners won't allow it

PamSchottDVM: I got kicked out of a downtown park doing that

LibbyWilliams: but letters to the editor are very effective.

PHChristy: they can't stop you from passing out information on a public street

PamSchottDVM: you have to have a permit in many towns

PamSchottDVM: yes they can

PHChristy: hmmm

PamSchottDVM: in that town anyway

PHChristy: yes, I see...

LibbyWilliams: Or insert brochures in magazines in newstands...:)

PamSchottDVM: i was told it would be easy to get a permit -i will try

LibbyWilliams: They don't know

PamSchottDVM: good idea Libby

PHChristy: Let me share just a couple of links...

PHMowgli: bulletin boards in close by stores?

PamSchottDVM: SOmeone posted a no puppy mill flyer in my gym s bathroom!

PHChristy: first is Libby's organization, New Jersey Consumers Against Pet Shop Abuse

LibbyWilliams: Good Idea Mow

PamSchottDVM: and i swear it wasn't me! that was awesome to see

PHChristy: http://www.njcapsa.org/

PHChristy: Second is the article on our site about pet store puppies, perhaps you could share that with people to get them thinking... not "us" but people who really don't know

PHChristy: http://www.doghobbyist.com/articles/PetShopPuppies.html

PamSchottDVM: Oh and let me say if anyone works in an animal hospital or knows their vet well enought o suggest that they get involved pleaase do so and they can get in touch with me - I am trying to form a veterinary group

PHChristy: Last is Karen Thayne's Pet Shop Mama article... http://members.aol.com/KARENKATO/petstore.html

PHChristy: Pam, do you want me to include your email address in the transcript, or is there another way they can contact you?

PHChristy: I'll be glad to forward anything I receive

LibbyWilliams: Thank you so much for having us...this was a real nice treat!

PHMowgli: Thank you Dr. Pam and LIbby it wonderful having you here to share you knowledge with us!!!!

PHKeeper: Thank you Pam and Libby for a great and informative chat. Thank all you members that attended and spread the word.

LoriLeigh: This has beenat help to me. Thank you!!!!!!!!!!!! And I will continue to educate my customers and those that call thinking I sell pets, where to go to acquire a pet. Christy, I will be in touch tomorrow.

PamSchottDVM: why don't you forward it to me - thanks

PHChristy: On behalf of all of us, thank you SO MUCH

PHChristy: it's been a wonderful chat

PHChristy: I will, Pam! If anyone in the veterinary profession would like to contact Dr. Schott about this issue, just contact me here.

PHChristy: And also...

PHChristy: we are having a chat on Thursday night at 9 PM Eastern Time

PamSchottDVM: thanks to all - Libby thanks

TenHouseCats_nr: thank you all!

PHChristy: with Rich Avanzino, the president of Maddie's Fund

PHChristy: I hope you can all join us!

cbg: very informative...thanks to both of you and to the folks who made it possible

LibbyWilliams: Thanks Pam!

PHChristy: we are discussing "Building a No Kill Nation"

PHChristy: thank you so much Pam and Libby! we will have you back for more soon!

PamSchottDVM: you're welcome...bye

PHChristy: goodnight everyone and thank you for being here!

LibbyWilliams: Christy I am looking forward to it! Thank you and Goodbye