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PHBlackBear: On behalf of Jeff Barringer and all of us at PetHobbyist.com, I am very pleased to welcome Sarah Kalnajs to our Ninth Annual Chat Week.

PHBlackBear: Sarah Kalnajs is a Certified Dog Behavior Consultant (International Association of Animal Behavior Consultants) and Certified Pet Dog Trainer (Association of Pet Dog Trainers) with over ten years experience working in canine behavior, training, and research. She is the owner of Blue Dog Training & Behavior in Madison, Wisconsin.

Sarah is also one of the editors of the peer-reviewed “Dog Trainers Journal," and is a member of the advisory board and faculty of Cynology College, specializing in the areas of shelter and rescue behavior, evaluation, and modification in shelter settings.

Sarah is the producer of the popular and highly praised DVD series, “Language of Dogs” and “Am I Safe. A popular speaker and freelance writer, Sarah has presented seminars nationwide on topics relating to dog training and behavior. She has been interviewed by BBC radio, NBC television, Wisconsin Public Radio, Women’s Health & Fitness magazine, and Honolulu magazine, and has written articles for APDT Chronicle of the Dog, Madison magazine, Allpets, and other publications.

She has extensive experience as an expert witness in both civil and criminal litigation relating to dog aggression. Sarah serves as a consultant to a number of humane societies in Southern Wisconsin, training staff and implementing evaluation protocols and training and behavior programs. She is well known for her evaluation protocol (the Blue Dog Behavior Evaluation) as well as the Dog-Safe Waist Restraint System used by shelters and dog owners who need to evaluate or work with reactive, fearful or aggressive dogs.

Sarah, before we open up the room to questions, would you like to say a few words?

BlueDogSarah_nr: First I'd like to thank you all for being here and for the invitation to chat with you. I would like to point you towards our website at www.bluedogtraining.com for further information after this chat and...You will all be offered a special price on our DVD products if you present the code PHChat at time of ordering either of the DVD products!

"Language of Dogs" is $35.00, "Am I Safe" $45.00 or both products for $75.00 a savings of $15.00! OK, that out of the way.....ask away and bear with my slow typing please!

fireladie: I have a 8 week old chocolate lab puppy. She is absolutely in love with my two toy/mini poodles. She plays very rough with them, and when things get out of hand, I tell her no then take her away from play and put her in time out. The problem is... she doesn't know the word NO yet. How do I teach her? I guess I was lucky with the poodles; they seemed to know NO meant no right when I got them. I have been doing diversion training with her... getting her attention off the bad behavior, and directing her to do something constructive like play with her toys. Now is this detrimental in teaching them NO? She seems to have a stubborn streak to her... she is not afraid to look you straight in the eye and not turn away. (can this potentialy mean she will be a dominate personality dog?) What are effective ways in teaching her that NO means quit the behavior?

MaryNY: 35 + 45 equals 80, right?

BlueDogSarah_nr: Yes, you are getting an extra $5.00 discount if you order both products on top of the individual discounts on each.

PHBlackBear: Sarah do you need time to re-read fire's question?

BlueDogSarah_nr: The main topic tonight is common pitfalls of pet ownership.....the things pet owners usually do incorrectly or fail to do!

BlueDogSarah_nr: For the first question, this is exactly on our topic....One of the things folks tend to focus on is what NOT to do when the better choice is to teach our dogs what TO DO!

BlueDogSarah_nr: Dogs do not come to us knowing English but it's surprising how many of us just chatter away at them...

fireladie: So the diverting her behavior is along those lines?

BlueDogSarah_nr: Your dog doesn't know "no", but the better choice would be to reinforce behaviors you want to see repeated and ignore behaviors you don't unless those behaviors are dangerous.

BlueDogSarah_nr: Now...let's give two scenarios... #1 Dog is chewing on a shoe. Bang your head on the wall three times while saying stupid human stupid human stupid human for leaving out the shoe....grin.Then just wait a few seconds. Chances are your dog is looking for attention...the good old "chase me" game.

fireladie: hehe... have been doing that alot lately LOL

BlueDogSarah_nr: If after a few seconds, the dog is hunkering down to chew up your favorite pair of shoes you will use what's called an NRM. That is a No Reward Marker and sounds like a short, sharp, "EH"

fireladie: you sah "EH"?

BlueDogSarah_nr: The reason to avoid the word "no" is only to prevent it from being overused to the point where it means nothing to your dog.

fireladie: Okay, that is one thing I was trying to avoid.. by directing her behavior to something else

BlueDogSarah_nr: If your dog someday runs into the street, you will certainly yell NO at the top of your lungs and I want her to listen to that, not ignore it!

BlueDogSarah_nr: Now, you've used your interruption sound, what next? You need to redirect and ask for one or two other behaviors...

BlueDogSarah_nr: The reason for this is that if you give the NRM and then give your dog a bone instead, you are teaching the dog that get the shoe equals get a bone (or whatever).

fireladie: Oh... so play rough with poodles equals get special toy? geesh LOL

BlueDogSarah_nr: You will instead, use the NRM, call the dog to you, ask for sit, shake, roll-over etc and then redirect the behavior onto an appropriate item.

BlueDogSarah_nr: WOW, my hands are sore from typing already!

fireladie: she is only 8 weeks... she is learning sit LOL... so what behavior can I ask now?

BlueDogSarah_nr: What I recommend to all of you is to get small tupperware containers and put them everywhere in your house that the dog is allowed to be in so you can have cookies rain from the sky whenever your dog does what you want (containers filled with broken bits of solid gold tiny tot treats are my choice). This makes your house a SLOT MACHINE to your dog, a very good thing!

BlueDogSarah_nr: You reinforce behaviors you like with cookies falling from the sky or attention or play or best a combination of all three at various times and those behaviors get repeated.

fireladie: Thanks... will start working on that tommorow (need more tupperware).

BlueDogSarah_nr: At eight weeks you should already be working on "sit" and I'd also teach a hand targeting cue called "touch"

fireladie: All my boys know paw.. and she is learning sit.

BlueDogSarah_nr: Present your hand with nothing in it...just an inch or two from dog's nose, when nose touches hand say "touch" and give cookie from other hand....repeat a few times only and then do many short sessions.

BlueDogSarah_nr: BIG OWNER MISTAKE NUMBER TWO is to use treats as a BRIBE Do not use treats as a bribe, but instead as a reinforcer. That is the benefit of the tupperware containers! If you have to run to the kitchen to get a treat, by the time it makes it into your dogs mouth, they have no idea what it was for!

fireladie: Well... I have never used treats as a reward system for good behavior... I have used toys, and play to reward them... so that is my biggest hesitation with using them on her that the other boys will fill left out, but that is a nother question for later LOL

BlueDogSarah_nr: So we've covered big mistake number one: FOCUSING ON WHAT NOT TO DO INSTEAD OF TEACHING WHAT YOU WANT THE DOG TO DO!

BlueDogSarah_nr: Big mistake number two: USING TREATS AS A BRIBE! Luring is a dangerous method in that dogs arent' so dumb....they quickly say...hmm, you want me to sit? SHOW ME THE COOKIES! Let's talk about that....treats are important. Food is a primary reinforcer, neccesary for an animals survival. Dogs are scavengers and should have a varied diet.

BlueDogSarah_nr: Human food given to dogs (not off your plate) is a good thing...if it's good for you, it's good for them with the exception of grapes, raisins, onions and baking chocolate. Don't be afraid to use treats. Would you go to work if you didn't get paid in MONEY??

fireladie: haha no ga

BlueDogSarah_nr: Just don't BRIBE your dogs with treats. My dogs will do anything I ask, anywhere I ask it because there is a chance the behavior might pay off and there is always that chance because the house is set up like a slot machine, as is the care and my purse, etc. etc.

BlueDogSarah_nr: I can go to big owner mistake number three.. #3 YOU MUST LEARN TO READ AND UNDERSTAND YOUR DOG'S BODY LANGUAGE!

BlueDogSarah_nr: A high fast wagging tail....does it mean a happy dog? Anyone?

PHFaust: Not always

fireladie: Mine have fast waving nubs LOL

BlueDogSarah_nr: Nubs count too!

PHFaust: It means excitement...

PHCatByte: Don't think a high tail is as good a sign as a level one, but what do I know, I have persians....

BlueDogSarah_nr: Yes, good...excitement. And also AROUSAL! Arousal and aggression are closely tied behavioral states.

fireladie: O.O naughty dogs

BlueDogSarah_nr: Dog's with high fast wagging tails or nubs are often aroused and you need to look at the rest of the body to see the whole package in context, but it is a warning sign just as a tucked tail would be.

BlueDogSarah_nr: Multiple sneezes during play? Your dog is having a great time! Yawning in the car? Shedding at the vet? Your dog is stressed! Lip licking, blinking, submissive grinning or offering a single lick to the side of your face....your dog is being appeasing!

BlueDogSarah_nr: Help me out guys...my fingers are cramping here! :)

PHFaust: Should we take another question before #4

BlueDogSarah_nr: Yes, let's take a question!

boudreaux: I adopted a 1 year old english bulldog male today. I have a 8 year female boston. My boston gets very excited and is a barker. I introduced them on neutral territory today for a brief encounter and it didn't go well. I think the boston's barking scares the bully and then the jumping at each other begins. The bully is 70 lbs. and the boston has had 2 ACL surgeries in the last 6 months. I am afraid the bully is going to hurt the boston. I have fostered bostons that are rescued for years, but have 0 experience with bullies. Please advise.

BlueDogSarah_nr: That's a tough one. Tell me more about the meeting. What were their bodies doing? Did they sniff each other on the cheek and then curve each other's bodies to get to the famous nose to butt position?

boudreaux: hair up on boston. bully was pulling leash

BlueDogSarah_nr: Were they directly facing each other?

boudreaux: nope

BlueDogSarah_nr: What was their position? What type of leash were the dogs on?

boudreaux: We approached them at an arc and then they went together - regular leash.

BlueDogSarah_nr: Did they go together in the way I described with faces and then nose to behind?

BlueDogSarah_nr: Regular leash is 6 foot standard leash??

boudreaux: Just got to the faces part and then it went haywire. Yes standard.

BlueDogSarah_nr: It sounds like you did things right, neutral territory and starting on leash. It is important that the LEASHES STAY LOOSE during introductions even though that's hard for us sometimes! That is why viewing the "Language of Dogs" DVD with its behavior sequences on dog greetings would be helpful.

BlueDogSarah_nr: One dog piloerecting is a sign of arousal. When you say it went haywire, can you describe that?

BlueDogSarah_nr: Often it is a very good idea with dogs that get aroused during greetings to turn one dog and allow the other to sniff the behind and then do the same thing turning the other dog. It's sort of a human mediated friendly greeting.

BlueDogSarah_nr: In the end, you have to trust the dogs. If one seems uncomfortable in the situation, then trust that there is something between the two that is not right.

PHCatByte: Dawn, you have a question for sarah?

BlueDogSarah_nr: Hmm, guess she didn't like my answer? ;)

Dawn_nr: Sorry!

Dawn_nr: I was letting my dog out, LOL! I thought I had time!

BlueDogSarah_nr: She came back....cookies, throwing cookies....:)

boudreaux: so sorry. I got disconnected

Dawn_nr: BlueDogSarah, I am an attorney and was interested in your website where you mentioned you've been an expert witness. I was curious about some of the cases you might have worked on, if you could share any interesting stories

Dawn_nr: or you can finish bouddreaux's question now!

boudreaux: please I need help!

BlueDogSarah_nr: One of the first cases I took actually went to trial (they always tell you that is unlikely...lucky me)! I have been involved in both civil and criminal cases as an expert witness including a multiple dog seizure for possible dog fighting charges. A very interesting case was a woman who was bitten in the face by a dog in a bar. The defense said that she provoked the bite by bending over and making direct eye contact by petting the dog. I hope we all know that direct eye contact and leaning over an unknown dog is not the most appropriate greeting....BUT, the law uses a reasonable person standard. Would a reasonable person likely have leaned over the dog to pet his head and say hello?

Dawn_nr: of course

BlueDogSarah_nr: Obviously the answer to that is yes! People unfortunately do this every single day....and luckily our dogs are very forgiving of our rudeness and don't bite often.....

Dawn_nr: We see it on television, on the street every day, read it in stories.

BlueDogSarah_nr: So in this case I testified that she did not provoke the bite and she did win the suit, but the opposing counsel had a very well known and respected dog expert (not from WI) who testified that she DID provoke the bite by leaning and looking....

BlueDogSarah_nr: In the end, it came down to what the jury thought.

BlueDogSarah_nr: Legal work is a very interesting part of what I do, but I limit that part of my work because I do what I do primarily to help dogs stay in one home by helping owners modify problem behaviors.

Dawn_nr: thank you!

PHCatByte: boudreaux, would you like to go back to your question?

BlueDogSarah_nr: You're welcome!

boudreaux: yes, please

BlueDogSarah_nr: I was asking you what happened during the interaction.....

BlueDogSarah_nr: Describe "it went haywire"

Susan_nr: ?

boudreaux: We moved towards each other in a circle and they pulled to come together and then Boston started barking and bully started pulling.

boudreaux: They were being very aggressive so I separated them and took one home.

BlueDogSarah_nr: This is hard to tell you what to have done because what matters most is what their bodies were saying. Were they becoming taller? Leaning forward? Growling? Snarling?

boudreaux: yes, all.

BlueDogSarah_nr: If their first meeting was very aggressive it is unlikely that this will be a match that would ever work.

boudreaux: plus jumping

BlueDogSarah_nr: Even if both dogs get on well with other dogs, there could just be 'bad juju" between those two. How about that for a scientific description? ;)

boudreaux: Oh no, I hate to give up this bully. his last family gave him away.

BlueDogSarah_nr: You did the right thing by separating them and takng one away.

BlueDogSarah_nr: I always use a couple of tests to see how things are going at a distance far enough away that the dogs aren't reacting as you saw....

boudreaux: Boston intimates other dogs. She's in their face and barking.

BlueDogSarah_nr: I would have them farther apart and see if they are both eating first of all. If not, the dog not eating is in a high state of arousal and a meeting at that time is not a good idea.

boudreaux: The bully hasn't eaten at all here

BlueDogSarah_nr: The other is to constanlty be asking for alternative behaviors. Will the dogs respond when you say "sit"? If not, you are again, not in a safe place to introduce.

boudreaux: so, any suggestons?

BlueDogSarah_nr: I know you don't want to rehome this bully and running a rescue group myself I feel your pain here. Imagine though that you left a bad marriage.

boudreaux: Yes, I have waited a long time because I refused to go to a breeder and would only rescue a bully

PHKeeper: Boudreaux does this answer your question?

BlueDogSarah_nr: Would you enter into another marriage where you didn't feel any love etc. because the new person REALLY WANTED to make it work?

boudreaux: no

BlueDogSarah_nr: I would suggest that you see a certified behavior consultant who can see you with both dogs and determine if they can be worked with together.

boudreaux: thanks

BlueDogSarah_nr: It's impossible to tell in an online forum such as this, but with the amount of aggression you are describing during the interaction.....it may not work out as you hope.

BlueDogSarah_nr: I'd like to tell you also the big bad's that I'd like people to avoid....

BlueDogSarah_nr: I'll talk a bit about punishment.

BlueDogSarah_nr: Please do not use techniques such as "alpha rolls" "scruffing" or other physical punishers, your dogs do not understand the meanings of these actions.

BlueDogSarah_nr: You can not force an emotional state (ie/submission) on another mammal, it has to be an OFFERED behavior.

BlueDogSarah_nr: In the 1960's it was noted that submissive wolves offered belly up position to dominant pack members....they also often urinated on themselves.

BlueDogSarah_nr: Well, dogs are not wolves first off.

BlueDogSarah_nr: More importantly the behavior was OFFERED. One wolf does not take another wolf and flip them over to show them who is boss.

BlueDogSarah_nr: Much of our dogs communication is done via olfactory means. Dogs have in the range of 250 million scent receptors to our 5 million. This means that much of the communication they do with each other we will never be able to mimic unfortunately. Learn what you can about learning theory. Pam Reid's book Excelerated Learning is excellent for this.

BlueDogSarah_nr: Negative punishment is a much better option when working with our companion animals. This means negative as in the mathmatical sense. The removal of something the dogs wants as a punisher.

BlueDogSarah_nr: Think about your high school days. If your parent said you had a choice between a slap to the face or losing the phone for two weeks as a teenage girl....which would have been more MOTIVATING as a punisher? For me I can tell you, losing the phone would have been horrid!

BlueDogSarah_nr: Looks like we are out of time. Anyone have any final comments? Did you enjoy the time here?

PHBlackBear: On behalf of PetHobbyist.com, Jeff Barringer, and all of us at PetHobbyist.com, I want to take a moment to thank Sarah Kalnajs for being part of our chat week. Sarah, thanks for taking the time out to chat with us on dog training and behavior.

RedDog_nr: Very much, thank you!

Deerhounds: thanks so much!

PHBlackBear: Fantastic Chat Sarah, thank you so much

RedDog_nr: Very educational and helpful! Goodnight!

PHFaust: Thanks for coming Sarah. Ill have good thoughts for your kids

BlueDogSarah_nr: Have a wonderful night everyone and remember to use the code you were given anytime in the next week to order the DVD's at a discounted price!